All-Era Playoffs

[DynastYWarrioR6]

Oh and to be clear, Me and CF did talk almost every night just to chit chat about the draft. And he did say what he said.

And btw CF, we might need you in the ESPN draft if you still wanna join.

 

[Celtic Fan]

I'd say intelligent use of empirical support is irreplaceable. You yourself used it when comparing John Stockton's production against Gary Payton. I talk about everything when comparing players, you just like to ignore pace; and I already addressed your other concerns I guess you didn't take the time to read my previous post to its full extent.

so because you posted a few more times.. ppl are voting for you?? does that make any sense??
and if sooo many ppl agreed with you, how come not a single person posted in agreement with your assessment of David Robinson??

I'm not buying into that at all.

you never really put up any proof of your pace findings.. just a 'take my word for it' so I choose not to put much value into it at all.

 

[DynastYWarrioR6]

Hey if we are basing this on how much we post, can I give myself some free points for starting all these threads

I need them

 

[huevonkiller]

it's all about context. The players chosen from the 50's, 60's and 70's were great in their era at their pace, regardless if it was different from today. Is Chris Paul on of the 5 best PG's of his era? No his era is 3 years old. Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Chauncey Billups, Allen Iverson are the top PG's of this decade.
Gary Payton is on of the 3 best PG's from the 90's and has accomplished much more than Paul.

Is Wilt the best or 2nd best player ever? Yes, depending on preference. According to you the best player ever would have the best PER.. that shows how efficient a player was, but it doesn't show other characteristics, like the ability to lead and motivate a team (ask Paul Pierce how important is was to have someone like KG on the team being an emotional leader) or to make clutch plays in a tight game, or to be able to get a basket when the other team is on a run. You have to watch the games to see how a player gets his stats.

You always disregard the intangibles but this is not a bunch of robots playing the game, there are guys like KG who you don't want having the ball with the game on the line, yet his stats are much more impressive than say Reggie Miller, but Reggie has ice in his veins and wanted to be the guy taking the shot with the game on the line and more often than not he delivered.

And this TS stat.. reggie's TS is .614, but his career FG% is 47% and his 3pt is 39.5% good not great numbers. But because his freaking FT% is 88.8% it inflates his TS percentage to make it a very high number which is misleading. Thus the limited value of such a stat.

I don't see it being a huge issue having to defend the choice of older players vs a modern stat that is skewed with a bias to favor the modern player.

Uh this is what I'm talking about... TS% being inflated? Huh? I don't think you understood me on that point. Yes FTs matter, that's why Hack-A-Shaq exists... And no I don't disregard all intangibles, I simply feel you didn't make your case in certain circumstances and the media/public has a tendency to hype up that kind of nonsense. TS% isn't skewed towards anyone... Neither is PER. What happened was people got caught up and drafted people who didn't deserve it imo, plus the fact that whether PER is legit or not (it generally gives one a great indication of offensive value, hell you could say it favors worthless scoring therby giving the edge to players like Baylor), pace has always been part of my verbal flourishes.

You simply value different things than I do, just like when you defended AI over Chris Paul, who I think has nothing over CP3 at the PG position.

 

[huevonkiller]

so because you posted a few more times.. ppl are voting for you?? does that make any sense??
and if sooo many ppl agreed with you, how come not a single person posted in agreement with your assessment of David Robinson??

I'm not buying into that at all.

you never really put up any proof of your pace findings.. just a 'take my word for it' so I choose not to put much value into it at all.

So why didn't people who vote for Agoo all vote in DW's poll? Yeah I have been getting more attention than anyone else and my threads have been bumped plenty of times. Plus I told you from the beginning that drafting "modern" players would always catch the attention of the public. My job was then to defend my picks in the selection threads.

What did you ever prove about Robinson? All you said was he sucks, take my word for it. Plenty of people agree with me, you can find plenty of articles comparing him and Shaq for example. Not posting in one specific thread proves nothing.

I provided plenty of proof, you're insane (no offense) if you think 7500-8000 shots a season is normal. And I went into more detail in the selection threads.

 

[huevonkiller]

I'm gonna be honest, all of this or at least most of us, did this draft to make a team with the players in the history of the NBA. I mean it was kinda to just see how much people knew and we could talk about dream teams and stuff, just for fun really. My problems with the voting for now, is I don't like how people come in to vote in one poll and not the other. And I'm not picking a side, but it DOES look suspicious if you took an unbiased look at this.

Now on the actual draft and the teams. It does kinda suck for some of us who did this draft (Like me) so that I could draft players I couldn't in something like the GM Draft. People like Jordan and Pippen and whatnot. We can argue so many things: pace, defense, era, everything. But what it comes down to is breaking down skillsets and matching the talent, I don't see the difficulty of that. You can argue that modern players will play like monsters in a fast paced league like the old days, but that doesn't factor the defense you are still going to have to face, and the distribution of the ball. That's just some aspects that can be covered.

The point is for everyone to come together and provide EACH of those POVs.

Well from the start people were less interested in certain polls, that's not really my fault or problem. And I never intended to draft just modern players until I kept seeing them slip. At that point I felt they were great value for the position I acquired them.

 

[agoo]

I'll say it then, it's bullshit.

I thought I hinted at it pretty strongly, but you said it.

If the winner of the all-era draft has one current hall of fame player, that will be ridiculous.

 

[Celtic Fan]

So why didn't people who vote for Agoo all vote in DW's poll? Yeah I have been getting more attention than anyone else and my threads have been bumped plenty of times. Plus I told you from the beginning that drafting "modern" players would always catch the attention of the public. My job was then to defend my picks in the selection threads.

What did you ever prove about Robinson? All you said was he sucks, take my word for it. Plenty of people agree with me, you can find plenty of articles comparing him and Shaq for example. Not posting in one specific thread proves nothing.

I provided plenty of proof, you're insane (no offense) if you think 7500-8000 shots a season is normal. And I went into more detail in the selection threads.

that's not what I said. I said he was soft and didn't deliver in the clutch and shied away from taking over games when they were tight.. Kinda like KG, he needed someone else to carry the team in the cruch.
2-4 other ppl agreed with this.

you have NEVER fessed up to having not seen Robinson play in the early 90's and thus rely on stats, which don't show HOW HE GOT HIS NUMBERS.

I never once implied that Wilt would have the same numbers today that he had in the 60s'.. I did say he'd still be the best center in the league easily and most likely the best player too.

You never took into account the change in rules (like no hand checking) that favor today's players or took into account the difference in training, nutrition and travel and accomodations that todays players benefit from and would significantly help the players from the 60's.

Hell in the article I posteb about Baylor, he played on the weekends and was in the military from Monday-Friday and still averaged 35 ppg and 15 rpg!! pace or not pace, that's just absurd how hard that would be to accomplish. Playing back to back games, most times taking a bus or train for nearby games or flying. If Elgin had the opportunities of today, he'd still be a talented star and one of the greatest players ever.

 

[Celtic Fan]

Well from the start people were less interested in certain polls, that's not really my fault or problem. And I never intended to draft just modern players until I kept seeing them slip. At that point I felt they were great value for the position I acquired them.

so ppl are coming in here, seeing 2 polls and only voting for one because you posted more??? umm yeah, right.

 

[Denny Crane]

oh and ask DW, I told him at the beginning of this all-era draft 'someone with a bunch of modern era players will win this because ppl don't know the history of the game and forums are generally full of younger ppl' Younger ppl tend to believe everything in their era is the best (I was like that too) so I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. I enjoyed the draft process.

LOL

When I saw someone say that Drexler was about as good as Jerry West, I knew it was pointless to draft the actual best players in history instead of modern players.

 

[huevonkiller]

LOL

When I saw someone say that Drexler was about as good as Jerry West, I knew it was pointless to draft the actual best players in history instead of modern players.

Out of context? Yeah this certainly is.

 

[huevonkiller]

so ppl are coming in here, seeing 2 polls and only voting for one because you posted more??? umm yeah, right.

Uh... Have you addressed why Agoo's votes didn't all translate into the other poll? Yes my thread gets bumped a bunch and I drafted popular/modern players from the start. I don't have mind control over people despite what you think. How jealous are you?

 

[huevonkiller]

that's not what I said. I said he was soft and didn't deliver in the clutch and shied away from taking over games when they were tight.. Kinda like KG, he needed someone else to carry the team in the cruch.
2-4 other ppl agreed with this.

And? You said he doesn't come up in the clutch, you didn't bother with the other "details" though, like showing me exactly how this is the case.

you have NEVER fessed up to having not seen Robinson play in the early 90's and thus rely on stats, which don't show HOW HE GOT HIS NUMBERS.

I never once implied that Wilt would have the same numbers today that he had in the 60s'.. I did say he'd still be the best center in the league easily and most likely the best player too.

Uh so? Have you ever watched Wilt Chamberlain play? You love to defend these old players who you probably haven't seen much yourself.

You never took into account the change in rules (like no hand checking) that favor today's players or took into account the difference in training, nutrition and travel and accomodations that todays players benefit from and would significantly help the players from the 60's.

Actually you don't have any understanding of PER then, it takes into account the League average, and measures the standard deviations one performs over that. So this is completely false and there are plenty of important rule changes that would impact Wilt today.

Hell in the article I posteb about Baylor, he played on the weekends and was in the military from Monday-Friday and still averaged 35 ppg and 15 rpg!! pace or not pace, that's just absurd how hard that would be to accomplish. Playing back to back games, most times taking a bus or train for nearby games or flying. If Elgin had the opportunities of today, he'd still be a talented star and one of the greatest players ever.

You're in love with Allen Iverson type of garbage volume scoring. You think he's better than Chris Paul, so of course you'll support these other players. Plenty of people bring up how they don't think old players would be as good today, so my team will win against these type of matchups.

 

[Denny Crane]

I've seen Wilt play and Baylor, too. Wilt was and still would be today arguable THE BEST player of all time, period. The debate is between him and Jordan. Baylor is certainly top 2-3 SFs of all time, he'd be about 3x as good today as Vince ever was.

 

[huevonkiller]

I've seen Wilt play and Baylor, too. Wilt was and still would be today arguable THE BEST player of all time, period. The debate is between him and Jordan. Baylor is certainly top 2-3 SFs of all time, he'd be about 3x as good today as Vince ever was.

He'd be a fine center... Comparable to Shaq but there are serious problems with him that I don't need to intangibly explain. Baylor is a macrocosm of Allen Iverson in the sense that his points and efficiency when put into context aren't as impressive.

 

[Denny Crane]

He'd be a fine center... Comparable to Shaq but there are serious problems with him that I don't need to intangibly explain. Baylor is a macrocosm of Allen Iverson in the sense that his points and efficiency when put into context aren't as impressive.

Only when put into the context that suits your world view.

I'm sorry, but this is just one of the stupidest basketball posts I've seen on the site in a long time.

 

[huevonkiller]

Only when put into the context that suits your world view.

I'm sorry, but this is just one of the stupidest basketball posts I've seen on the site in a long time.

Uh-oh he's like Shaq! What a diss. Not everyone thinks he's Jesus Christ, all Wilt Chamberlain discussions include this point.

It is stupid to ignore that he took about 40 shots a game to get to 50 points per game in a season. He could dominate the NBA at the same level and not achieve the same production now, due to the possessions allocated to him.

 

[Denny Crane]

Wilt would put up 35/20 numbers in the NBA today, and maybe get 10 assists as well. You simply do not fathom how good a player he was.

Take half the teams in the NBA away and put those players on the remaining 15 teams and you have an NBA that is as packed with talent as the NBA was then.

 

[huevonkiller]

Wilt would put up 35/20 numbers in the NBA today, and maybe get 10 assists as well. You simply do not fathom how good a player he was.

Take half the teams in the NBA away and put those players on the remaining 15 teams and you have an NBA that is as packed with talent as the NBA was then.

For example, durvasa calculated his rebound rate and he falls much more into the 15 RPG range; 20 is impossible for him. He could score 35 a game, he wouldn't do it as efficiently as Shaq though.

 

[Denny Crane]

That's nuts and an abuse of statistics.

 

[huevonkiller]

That's nuts and an abuse of statistics.

Rodman was the best rebounder of all time and he didn't average 20.

 

[Denny Crane]

Rodman was not the best rebounder of all time. Those are the kinds of statements that make your case stupid.

 

[huevonkiller]

Rodman was not the best rebounder of all time. Those are the kinds of statements that make your case stupid.

Those are the kind of statements that make your case stupid then, because he clearly was. His Rebound rate is second to no one.

 

[Denny Crane]

Misusing statistics again.

 

[huevonkiller]

Misusing statistics again.

Huh?

 

[DynastYWarrioR6]

Hey check it out, we got a vote!

 

[Denny Crane]

Rodman was a top 10 all-time rebounder, certainly best for his height. Wilt and Russell were obviously the top two of all time. Moses Malone was the best offensive rebounder, period. Nate Thurmond cannot be overlooked. Walton in his healthy prime was about as good as anyone. Wes Unseld never put up the kinds of stats that would impress YOU, but his rebounding was outstanding. Cowens was an inch taller than Rodman and played C and guarded guys like Wilt and Kareem and grabbed 15+ RPG for a few seasons.

 

[ghoti]

Rodman was a top 10 all-time rebounder, certainly best for his height. Wilt and Russell were obviously the top two of all time. Moses Malone was the best offensive rebounder, period. Nate Thurmond cannot be overlooked. Walton in his healthy prime was about as good as anyone. Wes Unseld never put up the kinds of stats that would impress YOU, but his rebounding was outstanding. Cowens was an inch taller than Rodman and played C and guarded guys like Wilt and Kareem and grabbed 15+ RPG for a few seasons.

Jerry Lucas was as good a man defender and as good a rebounder as Rodman, but he was a muuuuuuuch better offensive player.

He was 6'8" and could guard centers (but they couldn't guard him!).

He was also a winner and he could memorize the phone book. (I do not know if he would be able to win Celebrity Mole, though.)

 

[Denny Crane]

Jerry Lucas was as good a man defender and as good a rebounder as Rodman, but he was a muuuuuuuch better offensive player.

He was 6'8" and could guard centers (but they couldn't guard him!).

He was also a winner and he could memorize the phone book. (I do not know if he would be able to win Celebrity Mole, though.)

Very good!

Rodman had to contend for rebounds with Luc Longley. Even so, for a good part of Rodman's great rebounding years, a fellow named Jayson Williams (Nets player) was considered nearly his equal.

 

[ghoti]

Very good!

Rodman had to contend for rebounds with Luc Longley. Even so, for a good part of Rodman's great rebounding years, a fellow named Jayson Williams (Nets player) was considered nearly his equal.

Williams was in Rodman's league as a rebounder, but could not play man defense even close to Rodman's level.

Normal looking, 90s Pistons Rodman was an incredible defensive player. The older version who was such a dominant rebounder was still great, but not nearly as good.