Allen Crabbe signs offer sheet with Nets

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Should we match Brooklyn's offer sheet for Allen Crabbe?

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The problem with playing Jake is that the more exposure he gets the more teams will insist that we include him in any trade we make. We HAVE to play Crabbe until he becomes an asset.
 
BonesJones said:
I actually feel like Layman could defend better than Crabbe. Layman also does all the little things Crabbe doesn't, such as getting rid of the ball right away if he doesn't have anything as well as passing with zip. He is miles ahead of Crabbe at finishing and is even a better ball handler. Layman is a glue guy that needs a chance. I love the way he plays.
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At 6'9", Layman has good size for a SF. Playing Crabbe and Turner together leaves us undersized at the SF spot. Turner and Layman together makes more sense. I know Layman is a rookie, but I can't think of one thing Crabbe does better.

The only reason to play Crabbe at this point is to showcase him for a trade, but he isn't exactly helping his stock with the way he's playing. Plus, that 15% trade kicker makes an already hideous contract that much worse for anyone willing to take him off our hands.

BNM
 
blue9 said:
The problem with playing Jake is that the more exposure he gets the more teams will insist that we include him in any trade we make. We HAVE to play Crabbe until he becomes an asset.
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So, until February 2020 when he becomes attractive as a big, expiring contract. Great.

BNM
 
Defense. Granted, Crabbe looks to be playing SF, not his best position.

IMG_0158.PNG
 
Denny Crane said:
Defense. Granted, Crabbe looks to be playing SF, not his best position.

View attachment 10957
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Are you trying to claim Crabbe is a good, or bad defender?

From those numbers, it looks like he gives up more than 5 more points/48 minutes than he scores, whether he's playing SF or SG.

If you just look at the table here you can see that Crabbe's net production is -6.0 compared to C.J.'s +8.5.

For anyone who wants to start Crabbe because of his "superior" defense, please note his net points/48 at SG is -5.1 compared to C.J.'s +16.5. That's a difference of 21.6 points/48 in C.J.'s favor.

The best option is to continue to start C.J. at SG (duh!), play Turner at the backup SG and Layman at the backup SF. As I've been saying all long, Crabbe doesn't just deserve not to start, at his current level of production, he doesn't even deserve to be part of the regular rotation.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Are you trying to claim Crabbe is a good, or bad defender?

From those numbers, it looks like he gives up more than 5 more points/48 minutes than he scores, whether he's playing SF or SG.

If you just look at the table here you can see that Crabbe's net production is -6.0 compared to C.J.'s +8.5.

For anyone who wants to start Crabbe because of his "superior" defense, please note his net points/48 at SG is -5.1 compared to C.J.'s +16.5. That's a difference of 21.6 points/48 in C.J.'s favor.

The best option is to continue to start C.J. at SG (duh!), play Turner at the backup SG and Layman at the backup SF. As I've been saying all long, Crabbe doesn't just deserve not to start, at his current level of production, he doesn't even deserve to be part of the regular rotation.

BNM
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The argument made here has disregarded defense, which the lack of is killing us.

There is no reason to expect Crabbe to be worse than last season, except for how he's being used.

I agree CJ is one of the better SGs.
 
Denny Crane said:
The argument made here has disregarded defense, which the lack of is killing us.

There is no reason to expect Crabbe to be worse than last season, except for how he's being used.

I agree CJ is one of the better SGs.
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Through 19 games this year, Crabbe gives up 15.3 points/48. C.J. gives up 16.0 points/48. Really not much difference there, especially when you consider C.J. plays against starters and Crabbe plays against backups. The big difference is, C.J scores over twice as many points/48 as Crabbe and does so much more efficiently.

Crabbe's defense was actually worse last year, but he made up for it by his average offense. He was basically a net neutral player, scoring wise, last season at both SG (-0.4 pts/48) and SF (+0.3 pts/48), but was slightly net negative overalll, because he brings nothing to the table other than scoring.

This year, with his offense regressing to where it was before his contract year "breakout" season, he's basically a huge net negative no matter where you play him. He's giving up way more than he gets.

That leads me to a question about +/-. I still haven't figured out who is the victim when they play together, Evan Turner or Allen Crabbe. We keep hearing about how bad Turner's +/- is, but nobody ever mentions that he is stuck playing most of his minutes with a stand still shooter who can't shoot. +/- isn't really an individual stat, at least not in the sample sizes we are talking. The individual is only one of the ten players on the court, and if you're saddled with unproductive teammates, your +/- will suffer.

Turner was a +101 last year coming off the bench in BOS and Crabbe was +43 for POR last season. So, both are capable of making positive contributions, when paired with the right teammates. Its obvious that neither is thriving in the current situation, which is why, I'd like to see Stotts mix it up and try a Turner/Layman combo at the backup SG/SF spots.

BNM
 
Crabbe plays SF, out of position. And plays with the team already in a hole.

That said, Crabbe is featured on most of the top 5-man units for the Blazers on 82games.com.

If we are going to go small all the time, then start Crabbe or Turner at SF.

Also, Ben Gordon was in his early 20s as sixth man for the Bulls. Not later in his career. Even won 6moy. Even though his stats were superior as a starter, coaches wanted his play with the 2nd unit. Otherwise there'd be nobody to count on for points.
 
Denny Crane said:
Crabbe plays SF, out of position. And plays with the team already in a hole.

That said, Crabbe is featured on most of the too 5-man units for the Blazers on 82games.com.
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He guards the other teams SF, but it's not like his role on offense has changed. He's still a spot up, stand still 3-point shooter. The difference is last year he made those wide open shots at a respectable percentage. This year, he is not.

What makes you say he plays with team team already in the hole? Our starting unit has a positive 1st quarter +/-. It's the bench that usually surrenders the lead and Crabbe is a big part of that.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
He guards the other teams SF, but it's not like his role on offense has changed. He's still a spot up, stand still 3-point shooter. The difference is last year he made those wide open shots at a respectable percentage. This year, he is not.

What makes you say he plays with team team already in the hole? Our starting unit has a positive 1st quarter +/-. It's the bench that usually surrenders the lead and Crabbe is a big part of that.

BNM
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Other teams put a tall SF on him. It's harder to shoot over the bigger defender unless you have a big athletic advantage.

We won a lot of games with Vonleh as our starting PF last season. His stats were meh, but this team is faring worse without him. The chemistry worked.

Chemistry matters a lot, and roles and expectations for the players have changed. Crabbe is taking fewer FGA than Plums. His FGA are less than last year.

Either the guys throw in the towel, or guys underperforming now are going to get really hot to even things out. That's the good news.

The discussion here is maybe bringing CJ off the bench and starting a 3&D guy with more size. A little less Westhead on offense and a little emphasis on defense.

I would add that if you are the lesser team, you can win with good athletes who play defense and don't commit a lot of turnovers. We won with team play, not with a roster full of superstars.
 
Denny Crane said:
Other teams put a tall SF on him. It's harder to shoot over the bigger defender unless you have a big athletic advantage.
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Are they? It seems like I see the opposing SF guarding Turner, due to his post game, more than Crabbe. That still doesn't explain why he's bricking so many wide open 3-pointers.

Denny Crane said:
We won a lot of games with Vonleh as our starting PF last season. His stats were meh, but this team is faring worse without him. The chemistry worked.
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We were a .500 team (28-28) with Vonleh starting. It was the late season change to the Aminu/Harkless starting line up that propelled us to the 5th seed.

Denny Crane said:
The discussion here is maybe bringing CJ off the bench and starting a 3&D guy with more size. A little less Westhead on offense and a little emphasis on defense.
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Crabbe has the worst DRtg on the team.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Are they? It seems like I see the opposing SF guarding Turner, due to his post game, more than Crabbe. That still doesn't explain why he's bricking so many wide open 3-pointers.
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The Blazers signed him and made him be a bench player when he would have been a starter if they didn't match. Maybe that has something to do with it. The chemistry thing.


We were a .500 team (28-28) with Vonleh starting. It was the late season change to the Aminu/Harkless starting line up that propelled us to the 5th seed.
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And we were expected to be a 23 win team (c) @HCP - for the whole season.

Crabbe has the worst DRtg on the team.

BNM
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As he's being played, he does. He didn't last year.
 
http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/241913/Allen-Crabbes-Well-Timed-Emergence

Crabbe’s game emerged at the absolute best time for both himself and the Trail Blazers, as he was the bench scorer they have so desperately needed all of these years. However, his scoring is not what makes him such a unique asset – he averaged just 10.3 points per this year – it was the combination of elite shooting and terrific on-ball defense

...

Additionally, Crabbe provided the Blazers with terrific defense as he was often tasked with guarding the opposing teams best perimeter player. While many players get more glory as defenders due to flashy stats like steals, Crabbe was more often than not called upon to shadow and face guard top opposing players in order to get the ball out of their hands. While Crabbe is capable of swiping the ball from opponents, his defense is more predicated on fundamentals, taking very few chances while staying in front of his opponent at all times.
 
Denny Crane said:
http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/241913/Allen-Crabbes-Well-Timed-Emergence

Crabbe’s game emerged at the absolute best time for both himself and the Trail Blazers, as he was the bench scorer they have so desperately needed all of these years. However, his scoring is not what makes him such a unique asset – he averaged just 10.3 points per this year – it was the combination of elite shooting and terrific on-ball defense

...

Additionally, Crabbe provided the Blazers with terrific defense as he was often tasked with guarding the opposing teams best perimeter player. While many players get more glory as defenders due to flashy stats like steals, Crabbe was more often than not called upon to shadow and face guard top opposing players in order to get the ball out of their hands. While Crabbe is capable of swiping the ball from opponents, his defense is more predicated on fundamentals, taking very few chances while staying in front of his opponent at all times.
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Writes some guy I've never heard of without citing a single data point to support his conclusion/opinion. Basically, Crabbe plays good defense, because I say he does. Sounds familiar.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Writes some guy I've never heard of without citing a single data point to support his conclusion/opinion. Basically, Crabbe plays good defense, because I say he does. Sounds familiar.

BNM
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It is why Stotts played him last season and why he was offered and matched big dollars. The talent evaluators say he does.

Again, we are losing in alarming ways this year. We weren't a great roster last year, but the team play made up for it.

Like I said, if we want to go small, start ET at SF. Or Crabbe. We already are playing a SF at PF - when he's healthy.

http://www.netsdaily.com/2016/7/9/1...abbe-worth-the-big-bucks-the-really-big-bucks

1. At 6’6, 210 pounds, Crabbe has the prototypical size for a two-guard, with a frame that could match-up to any guard and plenty of small forwards in this league. In the very beginning of the video he expertly defends 6’8, 245 pound Stanley Johnson in the post, even blocking his shot. Will he do this to every two or three in the league? Not necessarily. But he’s a willing defender and can provide a bothersome time for post-up offensive twos and threes.

2. Later on we see Crabbe demonstrate some help defense, which was also showed in the Golden State clip. It’s a small sample size, sure, but good defense isn’t always shown in numbers. Crabbe, while in Portland, developed the reputation of being a two-way player, otherwise he probably wouldn’t have struck gold with his first non-rookie wage scale contract.
 
Nate said:
I guess using common sense is too hard for you.
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common sense would dictate if someone claims that a player is the 4th best on the team in a statistic, when reality reveals he's actually the 9th best that that person would say "my bad, I was wrong"... because who cares, we're just talking hoops. But you're obviously out to prove you're untethered by reality, silly statistics or making sense, it's all about blind love for your man. Can't fault the board for laughing though.

STOMP
 
You need to let it die. Common sense would dictate that Nate leave trivial players out of the ranking, which is what he did.
 
jlprk said:
You need to let it die. Common sense would dictate that Nate leave trivial players out of the ranking, which is what he did.
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The claim was 4th best on the team, no qualifiers were attached. Which of the 8 guys ranked ahead of him aren't on the team? And if we're going by your nonsensical interjection into this, which of these 4 guys is the "trivial" player in your opinion? Lilliard, CJ, Harkless, Plumlee. Besides all being starters, all 4 are ranked ahead of Crabbe in TS% and all score more points. I'd also point out that all 4 also bring other things to the table besides being a scoring threat.

Perhaps you've some more wisdom to share, or perhaps for once you'll say, "you know, I really should look things up so I know what the fuck I'm talking about"

STOMP
 
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STOMP said:
The claim was 4th best on the team, no qualifiers were attached. Which of the 8 guys ranked ahead of him aren't on the team? And if we're going by your nonsensical interjection into this, which of these 4 guys is the "trivial" player in your opinion? Lilliard, CJ, Harkless, Plumlee. Besides all being starters, all 4 are ranked ahead of Crabbe in TS% and all score more points. I'd also point out that all 4 also bring other things to the table besides being a scoring threat.

Perhaps you've some more wisdom to share, or perhaps for once you'll say, "you know, I really should look things up so I know what the fuck I'm talking about"

STOMP
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I see you keep forgetting about that common sense thing.

NATE
 
During Sunday's game, he posted that Crabbe was 4th best in TS%. (Anyone looking at the list will immediately see that he wasn't including Quarterman, Connaughton, or Layman. They don't belong in the discussion.) After the game, Crabbe descended to 5th.

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/Hfmno

You and he enjoy baiting each other (is there a history between you two?), so I'll bow out to maximize the pleasure for both of you.
 
The only way we can get out of that deal is if Philadelphia fancy him. I'm not even sure they do anymore, they got their dodgy shooter in Stauskas and even though they have loads of cap space, they might not want to use that on a 4-year Crabbe contract. They could probably give us back Noel if they fancied him but he'll probably be low down the list of their desired targets.

Maybe in some sort of package he will be movable.
 
Sarni said:
The only way we can get out of that deal is if Philadelphia fancy him. I'm not even sure they do anymore, they got their dodgy shooter in Stauskas and even though they have loads of cap space, they might not want to use that on a 4-year Crabbe contract. They could probably give us back Noel if they fancied him but he'll probably be low down the list of their desired targets.

Maybe in some sort of package he will be movable.
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Still hoping Crabbe and a pick for him and Henderson would get it done.
 
BonesJones said:
Still hoping Crabbe and a pick for him and Henderson would get it done.
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Hendo back would be good. I think they would prefer Henderson to Crabbe at the minute. Noel's value could be really, really low though all things considered. They've been looking to offload him and I don't think many teams are biting. Cleveland have been linked but they don't have anyone to send unless they part with Iman Shumpert. Toronto have been linked and they actually have some nice backcourt players to offer (I like Norman Powell a lot and he has a favorable contract) but they have JV.
 
Crabbe and Leonard to Dallas for Matthews, Bogut, and a filler?
 
BonesJones said:
Crabbe and Leonard to Dallas for Matthews, Bogut, and a filler?
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Would love that but Matthews is old story already. Bogut is someone we need to take a look at when he is free agent next season. He would make us better.
 
post injury Mathews isn't going to get us what we want. we would end up more disappointed than we already are.
 
jlprk said:
During Sunday's game, he posted that Crabbe was 4th best in TS%. (Anyone looking at the list will immediately see that he wasn't including Quarterman, Connaughton, or Layman. They don't belong in the discussion.) After the game, Crabbe descended to 5th.

http://bkref.com/pi/shareit/Hfmno
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Bowing out would be preferable to making more stuff up. Crabbe's TS% went up on Sunday's game and he rose from 9th overall on the team to 8th. All 4 of the guys I listed were and remain listed ahead of him. Fail.

STOMP
 
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