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The chemical components of DNA are existing biological materials.

It depends on what you mean by "from scratch" then. This is entirely different from customizing existing DNA, as you alleged...it's building new DNA from the components of DNA. The point is that scientists are achieving more and more in the lab in the field of artificial life. Whether scientists can cause abiogenesis to happen in the lab right now is not really a knock against the theory. There are many things that are beyond current human technology that happen in nature.
 
It depends on what you mean by "from scratch" then. This is entirely different from customizing existing DNA, as you alleged...it's building new DNA from the components of DNA. The point is that scientists are achieving more and more in the lab in the field of artificial life. Whether scientists can cause abiogenesis to happen in the lab right now is not really a knock against the theory. There are many things that are beyond current human technology that happen in nature.

From scratch would mean from atoms and molecules that aren't from pre-existing biological material. That means not from existing cells (replacing the DNA in them) and creating the biological chemicals to make the DNA from non-organic materials.



Again, what's interesting to me about the third point in the OP is that they can't create an environment in the lab where life spontaneously is formed.
 
I have a friend who's trying to convert me from being a non-believer to believer. She wants me to try and debunk these questions/"facts" -- to "save" me:



:morningtime:

Actually most of those are quite easy to argue against.

1. First of all your your friend is confusing evolution with the theory of how life began. Evolution is a theory that attempts to explain the change of life, not how it came into existence. Evolution only covers life forms that already exist. Molecules cannot evolve.

2. Because scientist don't know all the answers to everything in the universe is not a rational argument for the proof of a divine being. We don't know the answers to a lot of shit. It doesn't mean there is a god.

3. Those weren't leading mathmeticians who met with the evolutionist. They were mathmaticians, but leading? Nope. Most "Leading" mathmeticians are doing physics, not calculcating out bullshit like this. Secondly, those who brought their argument forward, their model was flawed. They didn't take into the account chemical stablities which make the possiblity of certain molecules forming as a much higher probably due to the fact that stable molecules have a much higher chance of forming than non stable molecules. They completely missed that in their model.

4. Who the fuck is Edward Conklin, and why does his opinion matter more than anybody else's?

5. Those assumptions about mutation and evolution are incorrect. In fact, for evolution to take place there doesn't have to be a mutation. All that has to happen is that some members of a species are more prone to survive because of a genetic feature they carry. When they survive, and those who don't have the genetic feature die out because of their lack of ability to survive, then soon the whole remainder of the species carries the feature forward, and because they interbreed the feature becomes stronger. For instance it is known that people with Red hair are slowly and surely representing a total lower percentage of the population. Because it is a recessive trait it will be slowly and surely bread to a lower and lower amount of people, by percentage in our society. No mutation is taking place. But one day, we probably won't have people with red hair anymore, or very few of them similar in numbers to Albino's. That is evolution. No mutation required.

6. Really all those transformations must have happened? Maybe some of them. But last I looked there were fish that stored their eggs inside of them and did live birth. Also, just because scientist haven't found any fossils yet, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It also means they may not be right too, because nothing has been proven. Fossils are hard to dig up. Much harder than making up stories and putting them in a book.

7. Mutations take generations and many many years to breed into the population. Most of our laboratories haven't been around long enough to observe such a phenomeneh. This isn't a science fiction movie where they inject something and it turns into a monster 6 hours later.

Now all that being said, the important thing is, none of your freinds arguments prove she is right about her side of the argument. In fact, believers have nothing more than a story written in a book to base their beliefs off of. Religions based on deities are all about manipulating weak minded people in the name of power. Eastern religions which are more philosophies than religions, are the only ones that are worth a fuck in my book.
 
This whole notion of either/or thinking is faulty. In this case the argument can be summed up as If Not Evolution Then Jesus.

Does that even make the slightest amount of sense to anyone?

If you want to try and convince me that christianity is awesome and god loves me and I should become a believer because nothing else makes sense, then do so in a way I don't find insulting.


I once had a man tell me that as hard as it is for a rich man to get into heaven (this is as hard as it is to pass a camel through the eye of a needle) it was that much harder still for a smart man to pass through the gates of heaven.
If being smart is a deteriment to being a member of your religion, then your religion is a pile of shit.
 
This whole notion of either/or thinking is faulty. In this case the argument can be summed up as If Not Evolution Then Jesus.

Does that even make the slightest amount of sense to anyone?

If you want to try and convince me that christianity is awesome and god loves me and I should become a believer because nothing else makes sense, then do so in a way I don't find insulting.


I once had a man tell me that as hard as it is for a rich man to get into heaven (this is as hard as it is to pass a camel through the eye of a needle) it was that much harder still for a smart man to pass through the gates of heaven.
If being smart is a deteriment to being a member of your religion, then your religion is a pile of shit.

Actually it does make sense. God/religion is basically the explanation of the unexplainable.
 
in the sense that magic elves from pluto are the explanation for the unexplainable

Magic elves from pluto haven't been mainstream thinking for thousands of years.

What was the original reason for the existence of religion? It's prevalent in just about every society going back those many years.
 
Magic elves from pluto haven't been mainstream thinking for thousands of years.

What was the original reason for the existence of religion? It's prevalent in just about every society going back those many years.

the point (more or less) was religion makes a virtue out of suspending reason and so tends to appeal more to idiots than smart people.
 
the point (more or less) was religion makes a virtue out of suspending reason and so tends to appeal more to idiots than smart people.

The point being that people of all sorts of cultures somehow came up with the same idea (religion) though separated by oceans or thousands of miles. It had nothing to do with suspending Reason, since they all (way back when) didn't have the benefit of university educations, laboratories, and the legacy of the inventions and ideas that have come before us. I wouldn't call the guys who built Stonehenge or the pyramids idiots.

Though Faith is certainly not Reasoned, and Faith means you accept things no matter what Reason says.
 
Actually it does make sense. God/religion is basically the explanation of the unexplainable.

So you are telling me that an argument built around the concept of "Your idea is wrong therefore my idea is correct" makes sense?
 
So you are telling me that an argument built around the concept of "Your idea is wrong therefore my idea is correct" makes sense?

Not exactly. I'm telling you that it does make sense that Religion has always filled the void where there was no explanation for how things worked.
 
Not exactly. I'm telling you that it does make sense that Religion has always filled the void where there was no explanation for how things worked.

That's true..."god of the gaps." God, for many, has filled in the gaps in human knowledge. And as we are able to accurately model more and more things in the universe, we stop ascribing mystical explanations to those things. Shouldn't we learn from that and stop defaulting to mystical explanations even before we fill in a gap? Maybe it's okay to take the position of "We just don't know this now, but maybe we will in the future" rather than "There must be an explanation and if science can't provide an explanation, it must be god."
 
That's true..."god of the gaps." God, for many, has filled in the gaps in human knowledge. And as we are able to accurately model more and more things in the universe, we stop ascribing mystical explanations to those things. Shouldn't we learn from that and stop defaulting to mystical explanations even before we fill in a gap? Maybe it's okay to take the position of "We just don't know this now, but maybe we will in the future" rather than "There must be an explanation and if science can't provide an explanation, it must be god."

It's ultimately a matter of our belief systems and the plausibility of the explanations. God sneezed and the Big Bang happened, or string theory. Take your pick. Neither can be actually proven at this point.
 
It's ultimately a matter of our belief systems and the plausibility of the explanations. God sneezed and the Big Bang happened, or string theory. Take your pick. Neither can be actually proven at this point.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. If you're trying to equate God, the Big Bang and string theory as "unproven explanations," I don't think that washes. Nothing in science can ever be proven beyond a doubt, but the Big Bang has observational evidence supporting it (the expansion of space, the distribution of background cosmic radiation, etc) and string theory has mathematical evidence supporting it. What evidence does "God did it" have behind it?

They are all "belief systems," but the difference is from whence the belief springs: evidence or faith?
 
I'm not entirely sure what you mean. If you're trying to equate God, the Big Bang and string theory as "unproven explanations," I don't think that washes. Nothing in science can ever be proven beyond a doubt, but the Big Bang has observational evidence supporting it (the expansion of space, the distribution of background cosmic radiation, etc) and string theory has mathematical evidence supporting it. What evidence does "God did it" have behind it?

They are all "belief systems," but the difference is from whence the belief springs: evidence or faith?

Very religious people tell me they see evidence of God's work everywhere - in a flower or a tree, for example. I don't find the beauty of mathematics any more compelling than religion (something more concrete than a bunch of theories would do).

I find the first post to be an awful argument for religion, the third point was interesting in an OT way, FWIW.
 
littlealex is talking about here and now obviously

From what I see, religion is something like a mass illusion. I recently read about a neuroscientist who built this helmet that creates a magnetic field over one spot in the brain. People who wear it have religious experiences. So it seems built in.
 
From what I see, religion is something like a mass illusion. I recently read about a neuroscientist who built this helmet that creates a magnetic field over one spot in the brain. People who wear it have religious experiences. So it seems built in.

Yeah, I saw that recently...on "Through The Wormhole with Morgan Freeman" on the Science channel. The evolutionary reasoning for why we'd have such an area of the brain is that the other side of the brain has the faculties that allow us to recognize and predict our own deaths, unique among species. This part of the brain is responsible for our sense of identity, our own presence (which we know will end). This would cause a great deal of anxiety, potentially enough, at least early in our history, to degrade our functioning. So we developed another part of the brain that reassures us that there's something beyond our physical presence, that will endure forever. That is infinite and therefore allays our anxieties. This part of the brain allows us to feel a presence outside of us. Experiments with that helmet have induced something like 80%+ of wearers to feel that there was a presence in the room with them while they were wearing it.

It was pretty interesting.
 
separate but possibly very closely related. some intert compounds do self-replicate with variation. it's possible the general form of the mechanisms that drive evolution today might have also been responsible for abiogenesis. in fact the point where life "began" may be subjective, or smeared out over millions of years.

If you ask me the strongest source of evolution is solar radiation that gets through our ionosphere and knocks chemicals loose. often known as cancer.
 
From scratch would mean from atoms and molecules that aren't from pre-existing biological material. That means not from existing cells (replacing the DNA in them) and creating the biological chemicals to make the DNA from non-organic materials.



Again, what's interesting to me about the third point in the OP is that they can't create an environment in the lab where life spontaneously is formed.

No, from scratch would mean forcing pair production of electron/positrons and protons adn anti-protons. then somehow separating the anti-matter and getting the matter to group up into atoms, and THEN where you picked up.
 
No, from scratch would mean forcing pair production of electron/positrons and protons adn anti-protons. then somehow separating the anti-matter and getting the matter to group up into atoms, and THEN where you picked up.

From scratch would be with what was on the early earth at the time life arose.
 
Yeah, I saw that recently...on "Through The Wormhole with Morgan Freeman" on the Science channel. The evolutionary reasoning for why we'd have such an area of the brain is that the other side of the brain has the faculties that allow us to recognize and predict our own deaths, unique among species. This part of the brain is responsible for our sense of identity, our own presence (which we know will end). This would cause a great deal of anxiety, potentially enough, at least early in our history, to degrade our functioning. So we developed another part of the brain that reassures us that there's something beyond our physical presence, that will endure forever. That is infinite and therefore allays our anxieties. This part of the brain allows us to feel a presence outside of us. Experiments with that helmet have induced something like 80%+ of wearers to feel that there was a presence in the room with them while they were wearing it.

It was pretty interesting.

this idea isn't very likely BUT, what if it's actually useful in a 6th sense kind of way. What if like sharks, we could sense EM fields generated by other animals. like a silent predator sneaking up on you. But like I said, it's probably a bunch of bullshit stoner hypotheticals
 
Uh huh. There's a funny word in your sentence. "Belief."

good point, I use that because I'm too lazy to look up the source of that. But yes, nobody has a truly accurate record of history, especially history when humanity did not exist. I think the thought process is based off finding chemical compositions from spectroscopy off comets/meteors.
 
They believe the oceans came from numerous comet impacts, and a drop of water at a time. Yet there's clear evidence in the oldest rocks (only 2M years younger than the earth) that there was a large amount of water at the time. Is it just possible the water was here, and many other places in the solar system all along?
 
They believe the oceans came from numerous comet impacts, and a drop of water at a time. Yet there's clear evidence in the oldest rocks (only 2M years younger than the earth) that there was a large amount of water at the time. Is it just possible the water was here, and many other places in the solar system all along?

I think the biggest issue about having water, is the need to have an atmosphere. So if there was an atmosphere early on, then I suppose it could be...
 
I think the biggest issue about having water, is the need to have an atmosphere. So if there was an atmosphere early on, then I suppose it could be...

Or it was within the rocks that accreted to form the earth. Though 2/3 of the earth's surface is water, the surface is just a very thin layer of the whole sphere.
 
Or it was within the rocks that accreted to form the earth. Though 2/3 of the earth's surface is water, the surface is just a very thin layer of the whole sphere.

aah that does sound familiar! Something about a comet they recently realized has water inside the rock and they are now having to re-think their definitions of comet versus meteor. So since the earth was mostly debris clumped together, why would earth-forming debris be any different than the comets that have water in it already.
 

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