Anyone have experience dealing with landlord/tenant disputes?

[D-Rock]

Did you make the stains and burns? Did you specify stains or burns on the carpet on the initial walk through? If you have them on the initial, then say those are the same stains and burns that were on the initial walk through. If they don't have a signed "walk through" stating new ones, then they can't charge you for it.

Also look at this...

Another thing you can do is call carpet cleaning companies in that area and get quotes on the carpet. If they charged 555, yet you got quotes of 150-200, then the judge may reduce that bill. But I wouldn't bring that up until you know that the judge will not accept the first argument that those stains and burns were already there.

The only possible stains on the carpet were from the high traffic areas and that's just dirt that would come out from a professional carpet cleaning and maybe some pre-treating. I have no idea what they're talking about with the burns. We don't smoke and never had anyone in the apartment that smoked. In other words, there were no burn marks in the carpet.

Pricing the carpet cleaning isn't a bad idea. I imagine the whole apartment could have been cleaned for that price. It wasn't a huge apartment.

 

[magnifier661]

Thanks, Mags. I've looked at all the stuff you've linked to so far. I've been at this for a little bit now. I looked up stuff when I got the bill in September and have been looking up stuff since the Sheriff came at around 1 pm yesterday (Wednesday). When I sent my response to the bill in September I cited a few RCW sections. I guess they weren't impressed...

Well it seems the jest of the bill is carpet. I could really argue this, but I've been in court too many times to count.

Basically you job to "make a reason for doubt" is not saying it does exist, but that they don't have the information to support the total amount. For example: If you call local carpet cleaning companies and make estimates of types of repairs. Let's say they charge $20 for a 3 x 3 square. Then before I explain my point, I would ask questions like. How many sq. ft. of carpet you repaired? In what rooms needed the repair? Do you have receipts from your carpet cleaning company on the said repairs? If they said "I don't know, I don't have that information in front of me", then I would reply "Well if you don't have that information, then how do you know for sure that the areas were even repaired?" or I would try to get an answer out of them like "Well do you think it's roughly 10 sq inches? 3 feet? the whole house?" Maybe they answer 10 sq. ft.

Now if you got 5 quotes from carpet cleaners in that area and that 10 sq. ft. cost only $50 bucks to repair, then you just lowered it to $50.

 

[magnifier661]

The only possible stains on the carpet were from the high traffic areas and that's just dirt that would come out from a professional carpet cleaning and maybe some pre-treating. I have no idea what they're talking about with the burns. We don't smoke and never had anyone in the apartment that smoked. In other words, there were no burn marks in the carpet.

Pricing the carpet cleaning isn't a bad idea. I imagine the whole apartment could have been cleaned for that price. It wasn't a huge apartment.

No way it's that price! Usually carpet cleaning is roughly $20 per room. So a normal apartment is roughly the equivalent of 4 rooms, basically 80 bucks. They can't charge you for normal wear and tear, and I would also get on-line definitions of "normal wear and tear" to use in court. I also like what Presidente said about looking the company up on google. If you can find a lot of complaints by previous tenants, then use that in court as well. Also, I would look up a database on judgements against the company too. All court proceedings are public domain. Basically, if someone has already beaten them, then you can use that same court case to beat them again.

 

[D-Rock]

Yeah. I'd probably fight it too, but its a lot of time and expense to travel back there, lodging, food, etc. I'd find every minor violation and report them to the housing authority. Also, smear them online, every rent.com review board, submit unique complaints about this entire process after its settled, start blogs, etc.

Also, do a google search on the property management company and see if there are other similar instances of similar problems.

The management company was hit with a huge fine a year or so ago for not adhering to ADA requirements in several of their complexes. It was something like $5M. The attorney I talked to says this management company tries to pull crap like this all the time. I have a good friend I made the mistake of recommending moving into the complex who was charged $400 for damages when they moved out, including a broken sink fixture that was broken when they moved in but never got fixed and wasn't included in their move-in walkthrough. There are several complaints online about this company. I'm not really sure what to do with it though besides having my buddy testify in small claims for me, but it's just he said/she said still.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Here is what I would focus on. First of all, you should DEMAND any photos of the damages in court and ask to inspect them individually for each itemization. Say you were never provided this. If they don't have it with them, say that the apartment was in pristine condition and matched the move-in condition. Without photographic proof, say there is no verification of damage.

1. Repair carpet throughout stains and burns - $555. Do what Mag says, get quotes around town. Get the square footage of your company and ask what is a reasonable rate. Your "evidence" would be the pre-inspection, your bill for cleaning the carpets if you have it, and estimates for spot stain and burn cleaning. Also, try to get a quote for new carpet installation in an apartment that size. If its around $555, argue with the judge that you just paid for new carpeting for them instead of "repairing" old carpet. Try to get an online quote or something as it may be a bitch to get a quote from a dealer there without them going to the location.

2. Avista (Electricity): Say you vacated the property on XXXXX date. All lights, heating, were turned off. Ask them if they entered the premises during this period in court. Do you have any documentation of your move-out date? If so, copy that and show that you were no longer in there. If they entered the property, they did so without giving you any notice so there's a violation right there if they try to argue your lease had not ended.

3. Repair vinyl floor entry (8 in scratch) - $75 (listed in move-in condition report). Easy. Just say its in the move-in report.

4. Repair kitchen countertop chipped - $75 (Scratches listed on move-in condition report, but I don't recall any chips). Easy. Just don't say you don't recall any "chips". Say it is as it was listed in the move-in report. Never admit anything that can be interpreted. Just say, the damage was listed on the move-in report.

5. Drywall repair excessive nail/screws - $100 (About 48 total holes 15 of which were from putting up curtain rods). You'll pay this probably.

6. Replace closet door 4 nails and scratched - $55 (Don't know what they're talking about here. Never put nails in any door). Ask for a photo.

7. Replace damaged door bathroom wht plastic - $55 (Might be referring to a robe hook that was there when we moved in, but I don't know.). Ask for photo of damage.

8. Processing Fee - PCR at possession. Ask them what this is. Tell them you are not responsible for any processing fee. Ask them to show you in the lease where they are entitled to this (examine the lease to make sure its not in there though).

When you speak to the judge, mention that this was all unexpected, frivolous and sent to you once you had already moved out of Spokane (assuming this is the case). Argue that what they are doing is underhanded in the expectation you would not show and that you had to travel great lengths to travel, take time out of work.

Say you attempted to question the bill and settle it. Bring your letters and make it a point that they were not willing to work with you, explain the charges, etc. Make sure you say this sentence on the record to the judge

"I believe that they were purposefully avoiding answering my questions out of bad faith"

make it seem like that you made every effort at rectifying the situation and that they are using the small claims system to avoid a proper explanation/documentation of damages. Print out the complaints and the fine they had to pay (just a few pages and highlight key phrases) just in case, and say that this seems to be their common practice.

 

[magnifier661]

El Presendente! When I get into buying houses to rent, I'm going to pay you to manage them! Nice work! BTW... My family owns about 30 residences and I used to manage them. And we were known to be good landlords, yet I felt like it was the biggest headache of my life. I feel for you man!

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

also, in small claims, sometimes the judge won't let you talk or go on a diatribe, which is a mistake that many people do.

try not to speak TOO much unless he asks you to. be very direct, everything based on subjective FACTS. most judges are assholes and its more about whether they like you unless you have an iron-clad case.

 

[D-Rock]

Here is what I would focus on. First of all, you should DEMAND any photos of the damages in court and ask to inspect them individually for each itemization. Say you were never provided this. If they don't have it with them, say that the apartment was in pristine condition and matched the move-in condition. Without photographic proof, say there is no verification of damage.

1. Repair carpet throughout stains and burns - $555. Do what Mag says, get quotes around town. Get the square footage of your company and ask what is a reasonable rate. Your "evidence" would be the pre-inspection, your bill for cleaning the carpets if you have it, and estimates for spot stain and burn cleaning.

2. Avista (Electricity): Say you vacated the property on XXXXX date. All lights, heating, were turned off. Ask them if they entered the premises during this period in court. Do you have any documentation of your move-out date? If so, copy that and show that you were no longer in there. If they entered the property, they did so without giving you any notice so there's a violation right there if they try to argue your lease had not ended.

3. Repair vinyl floor entry (8 in scratch) - $75 (listed in move-in condition report). Easy. Just say its in the move-in report.

4. Repair kitchen countertop chipped - $75 (Scratches listed on move-in condition report, but I don't recall any chips). Easy. Just don't say you don't recall any "chips". Say it is as it was listed in the move-in report. Never admit anything that can be interpreted. Just say, the damage was listed on the move-in report.

5. Drywall repair excessive nail/screws - $100 (About 48 total holes 15 of which were from putting up curtain rods). You'll pay this probably.

6. Replace closet door 4 nails and scratched - $55 (Don't know what they're talking about here. Never put nails in any door). Ask for a photo.

7. Replace damaged door bathroom wht plastic - $55 (Might be referring to a robe hook that was there when we moved in, but I don't know.). Ask for photo of damage.

8. Processing Fee - PCR at possession. Ask them what this is. Tell them you are not responsible for any processing fee. Ask them to show you in the lease where they are entitled to this (examine the lease to make sure its not in there though).

When you speak to the judge, mention that this was all unexpected, frivolous and sent to you once you had already moved out of Spokane (assuming this is the case). Argue that what they are doing is underhanded in the expectation you would not show and that you had to travel great lengths to travel, take time out of work.

Say you attempted to question the bill and settle it. Bring your letters and make it a point that they were not willing to work with you, explain the charges, etc. Make sure you say this sentence on the record to the judge

"I believe that they were purposefully avoiding answering my questions out of bad faith"

make it seem like that you made every effort at rectifying the situation and that they are using the small claims system to avoid a proper explanation/documentation of damages. Print out the complaints and the fine they had to pay (just a few pages and highlight key phrases) just in case, and say that this seems to be their common practice.

Thanks for the advice. I've copied it into my notes for prepping for court. Question. If I was told by the manager when we moved in that the nonrefundable redecorating fee was used to cover carpet cleaning, hole filling and painting, etc., why should I have to pay $100 for spackling a normal amount of holes? I'm trying to gather random photos we have of our place to show it was in good shape when we moved out (since I didn't take any photos for that specific purpose), but I don't have any yet that are definitive. I'm hoping I can find some from family and friends that were visiting when we were packing up.

 

[D-Rock]

also, in small claims, sometimes the judge won't let you talk or go on a diatribe, which is a mistake that many people do.

try not to speak TOO much unless he asks you to. be very direct, everything based on subjective FACTS. most judges are assholes and its more about whether they like you unless you have an iron-clad case.

Noted. It's easy to get emotional and off point when you feel personally attacked like this, but I'm sure I can do it. It'll probably piss me off if s/he doesn't let me present my argument though.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Thanks for the advice. I've copied it into my notes for prepping for court. Question. If I was told by the manager when we moved in that the nonrefundable redecorating fee was used to cover carpet cleaning, hole filling and painting, etc., why should I have to pay $100 for spackling a normal amount of holes? I'm trying to gather random photos we have of our place to show it was in good shape when we moved out (since I didn't take any photos for that specific purpose), but I don't have any yet that are definitive. I'm hoping I can find some from family and friends that were visiting when we were packing up.

Unless the photos are date-stamped, it won't really help you IMO. Maybe bring a few of them but don't spend a lot of time doing so.

OK, didn't know about the redecorating fee. You should start off then with that. The judge will ask you to explain your point of view. Tell him, that you were told that you paid this redecorating fee of $300 (see if you can get any explanation of it or proof that you paid) and it would be used for minor repairs such as carpet cleaning and filling holes.... which is what the company is trying to sue you for. If they counter that somehow, then just move onto your main arguments....no documentation of damages then follow (if necessary) with a line-by-line dispute of the bills.

Say the apartment was in the same condition when you moved in and any damages claimed by the management company should have been taken out of this "redecorating fee".

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Noted. It's easy to get emotional and off point when you feel personally attacked like this, but I'm sure I can do it. It'll probably piss me off if s/he doesn't let me present my argument though.

I have found the BEST way to prepare is do an outline format with only phrases or points you want to cover of everything you want to say and refer to it when the judge gets to that point.

I.
a.
b.

II.
a.
b.

III.

etc. Have everything on one sheet you can scribble notes on, and have the evidence corresponding to it in an orderly fashion so it is quickly accessible. The judge will cut you off if you start going on tangents or start rambling.

 

[D-Rock]

Unless the photos are date-stamped, it won't really help you IMO. Maybe bring a few of them but don't spend a lot of time doing so.

OK, didn't know about the redecorating fee. You should start off then with that. The judge will ask you to explain your point of view. Tell him, that you were told that you paid this redecorating fee of $300 (see if you can get any explanation of it or proof that you paid) and it would be used for minor repairs such as carpet cleaning and filling holes.... which is what the company is trying to sue you for. If they counter that somehow, then just move onto your main arguments....no documentation of damages then follow (if necessary) with a line-by-line dispute of the bills.

Say the apartment was in the same condition when you moved in and any damages claimed by the management company should have been taken out of this "redecorating fee".

The fee is written into the the lease agreement that I have the carbon copy of, so I have proof it existed and I paid it. I have the carbon of the check I wrote for the fee and if need be I can get proof it was cashed from my bank. I don't know how quickly I can get that though. Other than the fired landlord's statement, I don't have anything stating what it was for though. I imagine they'll just say that what they're charging me for was damages above the $300 redecorating fee. That's garbage though, but I digress.

 

[D-Rock]

I have found the BEST way to prepare is do an outline format with only phrases or points you want to cover of everything you want to say and refer to it when the judge gets to that point.

I.
a.
b.

II.
a.
b.

III.

etc. Have everything on one sheet you can scribble notes on, and have the evidence corresponding to it in an orderly fashion so it is quickly accessible. The judge will cut you off if you start going on tangents or start rambling.

Got it.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The fee is written into the the lease agreement that I have the carbon copy of, so I have proof it existed and I paid it. I have the carbon of the check I wrote for the fee and if need be I can get proof it was cashed from my bank. I don't know how quickly I can get that though. Other than the fired landlord's statement, I don't have anything stating what it was for though. I imagine they'll just say that what they're charging me for was damages above the $300 redecorating fee. That's garbage though, but I digress.

If its in the lease agreement, you don't need to get the check. Don't worry, just say that the landlord told you that it would cover these damages. If they argue he isn't there, just say that this is what you were told by the representative of the company (the landlord) and this all came as a big surprise as you assumed everything was "taken care of" as well as the apartment being in move-in condition.

If they try to give you shit, ask them what it is "usually used for" and if they try to say something else, ask them where in the lease this is stated. Them firing the manager actually helps you, since he may not have followed official protocol or have given you misinformation, but you operated as if this was their standard practice.

 

[D-Rock]

If its in the lease agreement, you don't need to get the check. Don't worry, just say that the landlord told you that it would cover these damages. If they argue he isn't there, just say that this is what you were told by the representative of the company (the landlord) and this all came as a big surprise as you assumed everything was "taken care of" as well as the apartment being in move-in condition.

If they try to give you shit, ask them what it is "usually used for" and if they try to say something else, ask them where in the lease this is stated. Them firing the manager actually helps you, since he may not have followed official protocol or have given you misinformation, but you operated as if this was their standard practice.

Good to know. This is the best practical information I've been able to find. I really appreciate it. I have a call in to a small claims judge in CA for some insight as well as a LL/T attorney in Spokane for more legal info and background on how to deal with small claims court and how to approach the issues as far as the law is concerned. I'm still debating whether I should go to the mediation. The legal benefits aside, it's scheduled on my wife's birthday and that's definitely not how I planned to spend that day.

 

[jlprk]

I don't know Washington law, but in Oregon I'm required to return your security deposit with any damages subtracted in an itemized fashion. If I don't return your security deposit within 30 days, I'm liable for TWICE the security deposit plus something like $200.

Read through this link and find out your rights: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18

Here it is. Also, did the landlord deduct the redecoration fee from the supposed damages? It would seem that it was intended for something like the new carpet.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.280

 

[D-Rock]

Here it is. Also, did the landlord deduct the redecoration fee from the supposed damages? It would seem that it was intended for something like the new carpet.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.280

There's nothing indicating that they did anything with the redecorating fee but pocket it.

 

[jlprk]

You should say this to the judge: It's unheard of to have no damage deposit. And it's rare to require a nonrefundable damage deposit under cover of "redecoration." They combined those two weird things to avoid having to obey the rules in the link I gave.

Redecoration, to me, means routine improvement, such as replacing the carpet when it's not mandatory. The redecoration fee has to be deducted from the damages (that's what you should argue).

I think you might avoid the long drive by filing a written afadavit. Not sure. You might phone the court clerk and ask. (Back when I couldn't afford a lawyer, I was encouraged to do this, but it seemed too hard.)

 

[D-Rock]

You should say this to the judge: It's unheard of to have no damage deposit. And it's rare to require a nonrefundable damage deposit under cover of "redecoration." They combined those two weird things to avoid having to obey the rules in the link I gave.

Redecoration, to me, means routine improvement, such as replacing the carpet when it's not mandatory. The redecoration fee has to be deducted from the damages (that's what you should argue).

I think you might avoid the long drive by filing a written afadavit. Not sure. You might phone the court clerk and ask. (Back when I couldn't afford a lawyer, I was encouraged to do this, but it seemed too hard.)

Thanks for advice. I was planning on calling the the clerk today, but my wife had other ideas for my time today...