AP sources: Dems reach deal to drop gov't-run plan

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I think Lieberman just expended his last "I am an ass" card. I would be pretty surprised if by the end of next year he is caucusing with the Dems. I'm really not sure what his game plan is other than to look like an ass. Frankly, if I were the Dems I'd consider any option not needing 60 and just push it through and then deal with Lieberman on a personal basis.

Huh? Is it impossible for you to believe that he has actual concerns about the health care plan as currently constructed? Do you really think this is Sen. Leiberman being an obstructioninst just for the sake of throwing a hissy fit? If so, please explain your reasoning.
 
BTW, the solution to this problem is easy. Put in a trigger to get Sen. Snowe's vote and support abortion restrictions and get Sen. Nelson's vote. If the Left wants their toe hold on control of 1/6th of the US economy, they're going to have to give up a few things. Those on the far left will hold their nose and vote for it anyway.
 
I'm wondering why you think a Senator from a state where insurance companies are a huge employer would want to destroy private health insurance? It's not like he owes the Democrats anything; it was their choice to boot him out of the party because he wasn't dogmatically in step on Iraq.

That's like expecting Carl Levin to vote for the dissolution of the US auto companies or Tom Harkin to vote for farming regulations that would destroy the US corn industry.

Being against the bill isn't the beef against Lieberman. Changing his position every couple weeks just to get on TV some more is the beef.

Just wait, he'll be for the bill again soon. It aint about the bill, it's about Joe.

barfo
 
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Being against the bill isn't the beef against Lieberman. Changing his position every couple weeks just to get on TV some more is the beef.

barfo

I haven't followed his position closely, but I do recall him being against the public option from the get-go. When did he support the public option?
 
I haven't followed his position closely, but I do recall him being against the public option from the get-go. When did he support the public option?

When he ran for reelection in 2006? And more recently, when he led the Dems to believe he was going to vote for the bill.

barfo
 
When he ran for reelection in 2006? And more recently, when he led the Dems to believe he was going to vote for the bill.

barfo

I don't recall him saying he wanted universal health care when he was running in 2006. I remember Ned LaMont running to the left of him when the Dems forced him to run as an independent. As for when "he led the Dems to believe he was going to vote for the bill", I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have quotes or links?
 
I don't recall him saying he wanted universal health care when he was running in 2006. I remember Ned LaMont running to the left of him when the Dems forced him to run as an independent. As for when "he led the Dems to believe he was going to vote for the bill", I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you have quotes or links?

Hey, I don't. Maybe I will later, not sure.

barfo
 
Hey, I don't. Maybe I will later, not sure.

barfo

I'm not doubting you, I just haven't heard anything about Lieberman pulling a Kerry I-was-for-it-before-I-was-against-it. He's a politician, so it's not like he's immune from that kind of behavior.
 
I'm not doubting you, I just haven't heard anything about Lieberman pulling a Kerry I-was-for-it-before-I-was-against-it. He's a politician, so it's not like he's immune from that kind of behavior.

I'll see if I can find something. I don't actually remember seeing him explicitly say that he'd support it, my comment was based more on the supposition that he must have privately told them he'd support it, because it seems bizarre that they'd go through weeks of careful negotiations with the various recalcitrant parties and not ever bother to check on his point of view. It seems like, based on their actions, that they were expecting him to support it. Then again, they could be stupid that way, or the actual situation might be more complex than I am making it out to be (for instance, they might have put Lieberman out there as an opponent in order to justify making a concession that the liberal wing is opposed to, but that they need to get someone else on board).

barfo
 
I'll see if I can find something. I don't actually remember seeing him explicitly say that he'd support it, my comment was based more on the supposition that he must have privately told them he'd support it, because it seems bizarre that they'd go through weeks of careful negotiations with the various recalcitrant parties and not ever bother to check on his point of view. It seems like, based on their actions, that they were expecting him to support it. Then again, they could be stupid that way, or the actual situation might be more complex than I am making it out to be (for instance, they might have put Lieberman out there as an opponent in order to justify making a concession that the liberal wing is opposed to, but that they need to get someone else on board).

barfo

He privately indicated he would support it and then did an about-face.

I am less angered when a member opposes something out of principal, but whether Dem or GOP or independant (or lib) can we all just agree that Joe is an assclown? I realize that makes him qualified to coach the Blazers, but beyond that I hope the guy gets what's coming to him. I'd rather have a tea bagger in that state where at least I know what position they're going to take and run with it rather than be worried about how much face time they get in front of the camera.
 
http://orient.bowdoin.edu/orient/article.php?date=2009-11-20&section=2&id=5

Joe Lieberman’s gamble on health care reform is rather risky

November 20, 2009

As it stands right now, the House version would never see the light of day in the Senate. The Senate bill will include either or both a "trigger" or an "opt-out," but not if Senator Lieberman (I-CT) has anything to do with it. There is a group of centrist senators—mostly moderate Democrats—who are stalling the progress of health care reform in the Senate. But among these centrists, Joe is the only member of the Democratic Caucus to explicitly state he would filibuster any legislation that included the public option.
 
I don't see how anything Lieberman does can be called risky. He probably isn't going to run for reelection, and even if he does run, he won't win. So he's free to do what he likes, which is get in front of the cameras.

He'd better hurry, though, because likely the Dems will lose a few seats next year, and when that happens, they won't need him for much of anything anymore. At that point he'll get one more round of publicity by switching to the R party, and then after that it is reality shows and getting naked in public.

barfo
 
If you read the article at the link, they make it out like he's trying to revitalize the gang of 14 (moderates). Trying to make the legislation more inclusive of votes in both parties.
 
If you read the article at the link, they make it out like he's trying to revitalize the gang of 14 (moderates). Trying to make the legislation more inclusive of votes in both parties.

Yeah, I read that, but I don't buy it. I'm not convinced Joe is the type to organize. He's not the type, and who the hell would follow him? You know he'd turn around and fire at his own troops at the first opportunity.

barfo
 
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9CIQA100&show_article=1

While Lieberman drew most of the attention for his comments, Democratic Sens. Claire McCaskill of Missouri and Ben Nelson of Nebraska also expressed concern about the legislation.

"I'm concerned that it's the forerunner of single-payer—the ultimate single-payer plan, maybe even more directly than the public option," Nelson said of the Medicare proposal. By single-payer, he meant national health insurance run by Washington. Unlike Lieberman, Nelson participated in negotiations last week between liberals and moderates that produced the general framework that included the Medicare provision.

Nelson also is seeking stricter abortion restrictions than are currently in the bill.

"The whole reason we're doing this bill is to bring down cost, first for the American people in health care, and secondly for the deficit," said Democratic Sen. Claire McCaskill of Missouri. "So until we get the numbers back from the Congressional Budget Office, we're all on hold."

Asked if she would vote against the bill if it raised health care costs overall, she said, "Absolutely."

In the meantime, only a few moderates have come out against the Medicare plan. But in a legislative struggle that is a game of inches, Democrats need all 60 votes in their caucus, and they don't yet have them.
 
BTW

The bill contains a provision to allow people to buy drugs from canadian sources. They say it will save $80B.

Just wow. $54B is to puny to bother saving, yet $80B is worth it.

Harry Reid is done.
 
This doesn't really fit in this thread, but I got this idea when looking at a picture of Harry Reid on CNN. I'm calling it: "American Health Care Gothic"

PelosiReidGothic.jpg
 
This doesn't really fit in this thread, but I got this idea when looking at a picture of Harry Reid on CNN. I'm calling it: "American Health Care Gothic"

PelosiReidGothic.jpg

Nicely done!

Maybe it needs something like an aborted fetus on the pitchfork tines?

barfo
 
It looks like Lieberman is now on board. If a bill with around a 40% approval rate gets done on a party line vote where the last votes were bought or coerced, our democracy is in real trouble.

I'm as disgusted with my government as I've ever been.
 
If they cut out $600B of the taxes and spending, I'd probably be for it, too.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/darcy-burner/joe-liebermans-healthcare_b_392139.html

Joe Lieberman's Health Care Bill Is Worse Than Doing Nothing - Kill It

The first rule of medicine is, "Do no harm." The post-Joe Lieberman version of the Senate health care bill fails that basic criterion. Unless Democratic leadership steps up to fix this misguided proposal, our only recourse will be to kill it.

The fundamental failing of the newest Senate proposal is that it requires individuals to purchase health insurance, but does nothing to rein in what insurance companies charge. There is nothing to stop spiraling health costs from eating up an ever-increasing percentage of our national productivity.

The House bill has two major cost-control mechanisms: the public option and the 85% medical-loss ratio requirement. The Senate bill is on track to have neither, and nothing new to replace them. The Senate bill is a recipe for national disaster. If it's that bill or nothing, I prefer nothing.

We all know America's current health care system is failing -- and it's failing everyone, not just the uninsured. It is far too expensive: Americans spend 16% of GDP on health care and get worse results than countries that spend half that. Literally.

We need health reform that expands access to quality health care, abolishes unjust practices of insurers, improves value to the country, and puts us on a trajectory to continue to improve our health care system over time.

But the Senate has systematically stripped out nearly everything I liked about what was proposed in the early, heady days of health care reform. They have done so in order to please a handful of so-called centrists who care more about protecting corporate profits than protecting the people they claim to represent.

How do we judge whatever the Senate finally passes? How do we tell whether what's left of the bill is enough to support it?

There are four key questions we can use to evaluate the proposed reforms:
Affordable coverage for everyone: How close are we to the ideal that every American will have access to high-quality health care that they can afford?

Value: How much have we improved the value Americans get for our health care dollars -- so that we are healthier and get more for our money?

Fixing insurance company injustices: Have we reduced or eliminated the injustices caused by insurance companies when they destroy the lives of people who get sick by refusing to pay for care, or retroactively canceling their insurance?

Trajectory: Are we on a path towards continued improvements in all of those areas?
If we look at the current Senate proposal, the scorecard is not promising:

Affordable coverage for everyone: FAIL.
The latest CBO estimates for the Senate bill say that a family of four with a household income of $54,000/year should expect to pay 17% of their gross income on health care -- about $9,000/year. (And that was when there was a public option to hold down costs!) That's more than they'll spend on federal taxes. That's more than they'll spend on food. I'm guessing if you took a poll, very few Americans would consider that affordable. And because of the way they've approached this, there's no effective cost cap on premiums and nothing providing downward pressure, so this is a problem that would get worse rather than better over time.

Value: FAIL.
In January 2007, the McKinsey Global Institute released a study showing that the United States spends twice as much on health care as the rest of the industrialized world. It costs our economy an extra $480 billion per year -- roughly $1,600 for every man, woman and child in the country. It's not because we get more effective care: we have lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality. Our results are worse, even though we're spending twice as much.

We pay more because we've set up the system so that the incentives to insurance companies, doctors, hospitals, and patients are all messed up. We've set it up so that expensive ways to treat things are preferred to inexpensive ones, even when the inexpensive ones are better. We're not getting better care, just more expensive care. Insurance companies won't pay to let a diabetic see a podiatrist to keep their feet healthy, instead waiting to cover amputations. Why? Because maybe by the time an amputation is necessary, somebody else -- another insurance company or better yet Medicare -- will have to foot the bill. Voila! More expensive, worse care.

Unless we address the messed-up incentives that are at the heart of our system being so expensive relative to the value being delivered, we aren't really fixing the problem. A public option might have been in a position to begin to fix those problems, but nothing in the current Senate bill does.

Fixing insurance company injustices: PASS.
The biggest areas of insurance company abuse -- denying coverage to people with pre-existing conditions, canceling policies retroactively after people get sick, discriminating in rates on the basis of gender -- appear to be addressed by the bill. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.

Trajectory: FAIL.
Finally, the question is not only whether the bill improves each of the three areas in the short term, but whether they will improve in five years or ten years or twenty years. What the Senate is currently discussing will make health care more expensive for individuals, families, and businesses, with no check on the insurance companies and none of the systemic reforms that might fix the incentive problems. They're on track to make the problems worse over time rather than better.

That's the best the Senate can do? Thanks to Joe Lieberman, it's worse than nothing.

We should fight for the House bill, which does a better job on all fronts. With some minor tweaks to ensure that women can get the reproductive care they and their doctors think they need, it's a decent bill on the right trajectory.

But if it's Joe Lieberman's bill or nothing? Kill it.
 
That HufPost article demonstrates the lunacy of the logic of some people.

"Value: FAIL.
In January 2007, the McKinsey Global Institute released a study showing that the United States spends twice as much on health care as the rest of the industrialized world."

First, so what?

Second, we also spend more than twice as much on our military at half what we budget now for it. Our economy is that big that a tiny % of it is a lot of $$$.
 
That HufPost article demonstrates the lunacy of the logic of some people.

"Value: FAIL.
In January 2007, the McKinsey Global Institute released a study showing that the United States spends twice as much on health care as the rest of the industrialized world."

First, so what?

"So what" was addressed in the article immediately following what you quoted here:

It costs our economy an extra $480 billion per year -- roughly $1,600 for every man, woman and child in the country. It's not because we get more effective care: we have lower life expectancy and higher infant mortality. Our results are worse, even though we're spending twice as much.

That's "so what".

Second, we also spend more than twice as much on our military at half what we budget now for it. Our economy is that big that a tiny % of it is a lot of $$$.

17% is not a tiny percentage.

barfo
 
17% is about what other nations pay, too.
 
BTW

The bill contains a provision to allow people to buy drugs from canadian sources. They say it will save $80B.

Just wow. $54B is to puny to bother saving, yet $80B is worth it.

Harry Reid is done.

Speechless, barfo?
 
Speechless, barfo?

Sorry, I didn't see anything in that post that warranted a response.

Harry Reid's reelection chances (if that was what you were talking about) is kind of an interesting topic. We could talk about that if you like, but we might not disagree.

barfo
 
[video=youtube;wIPV6y73B0I]

Good 'ol Joe! He really doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself. He is obviously getting an extreme amount of money from the insurance companies, considering 3 months ago he wanted to do this.

Man, if lobbying was taken out of our politics, I think we'd have a better country. Then who we send to Washington to represent us will care more about their district and this country rather than big corporations and money.

Time to see if the Dems can use some reconciliation in this bitch! That plan with the medicare buy in age reduction and requiring Insurance companies to spend 90% on coverage, and then amendments like buying across state lines and no denying people w/ pre-existing conditions. I think that is an excellent bill, and I think a majority of the country wants that.

I heard on the radio that a Kaiser Permanente poll showed that 74% of Americans want the medicare age buy in thing. So I think that health bill would go over well. It isn't full blown reform, but it is solid. At least I think so.
 
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