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http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2013/01/14/apple-demand-future-innovation/1827607/

Stock plunge woes

Apple needs a new game-changing product to nudge the stock. Shares of Apple have drooped about 29% since they hit an all-time high of $705.07 last year. Investors are concerned Apple can't keep growing at the same rate without consuming another industry. The big problem is, Apple has run up against the law of numbers: To grow on a significant percentage basis -— Wall Street's quarterly fix — requires massive growth.

"They fight the law of large numbers — the company will need to go to new markets" to keep growth up, says Edward Jones analyst Bill Kreher. "There's a lot of concern about innovation and what Jobs brought to the table."

Without a new invention, Apple needs to sell an ever-increasing number of iPhones and iPads.

"They've had such a fabulous run. It's just hard to sustain such high growth once you get that big," says Richard Sloan, a professor at the University of California at Berkeley. "Apple was sort of the king of the glamour stocks since about 2009 with increased visibility on increased sales in iPhone and iPad."

The run, at this rate, had to end. "Everyone thinks this is going to be a flat quarter" compared with a year ago, Sloan says.

...

Still, both television makers and content owners are on notice that next in line is a game-changing TV. Rumors are rampant Apple will do just that — to be followed by more years of fat sales, burgeoning market share and investment by Apple. But some signs point in another direction.

Studios and cable providers have made it clear they don't want to work with Apple and would prefer to create their own business models, notes Keith Bachman of BMO Capital Markets. "We remain skeptical on Apple's eventual foray into TVs," he wrote last week to clients. "We think this will be a niche market opportunity for Apple."

Needham & Company analyst Charles Wolf concurred. "I frankly would be surprised if they launched a TV," he says. "The economics of a TV are so difficult. It's low-margin; the upgrade cycle is really slow."
 
You're welcome Draco, you're welcome.

Yeah, nice! Just saw this today. So is there a reason you avoid these?

If you think in general these are a bad buy then do you like selling far OTM options?
 
Yeah, nice! Just saw this today. So is there a reason you avoid these?

If you think in general these are a bad buy then do you like selling far OTM options?

I only buy options in the direction of the perceived trend. So in this case, when you brought it up, I would have been looking at buying puts instead of calls (although I wouldn't have had the balls to go with puts against aapl, so I wouldn't have actually bought them here).

But I avoid far OTM calls and puts. There are a couple reasons why I do. One reason is that you're purely paying for time premium. There is no intrinsic value, so you're just paying for the time / extrinsic value. Which means even if you guess the direction of the underlying stock correctly, you can still lose all of your money if you get the amount of the direction wrong.

Second... with OTM calls, you're also paying a premium on the implied volatility since there is a volatility "smile" that makes far OTM options even more expensive. The problem with this is that if the underlying stock starts moving up, the implied volatility of your call option will drop and make your option worth less. Implied volatility is what is used in the Black-Scholes equation to value options. So you may have guess the stock direction correct, and the amount of the direction, but if you over paid for implied volatility, you can still lose all of your money.

When I sell options, I usually only sell slightly OTM calls, but I do it by selling vertical call spreads. I do this because of the implied volatility issues I mentioned above.

I realize there is the draw of the high leverage with deep OTM options, but if you take a look at the delta on ITM options, you still get a lot of leverage. For example, January 2014 the at-money calls on AAPL have a delta of 0.54, which gives you about a 4.5X leverage. That is still pretty high and removes some of the implied volatility concerns.
 
Apple's stock always takes a nice tumble before an earnings call. Their P/E ratio is half that of their major competitors, and there's talk of some stock manipulation happening with the recent "cutting hardware orders in half" story where the number they supposedly cut in half was exactly double their normal order (65 million units down to 37.5 million where a normal quarter for them is 30-40 million units).

I really don't like Apple stock right now, because it's such a target. The company is doing fine, but the stock is being ridden like the a prom date.
 
I really don't think an potential iTV will be revolutionary, personally. Maybe I'll be wrong but their bread and butter are personal devices like ipads and iphones right now, and there's not much new innovation going on as android is taking their market share. I mean what new can they add to a phone now?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ofit-drop-in-decade-as-iphone-slows-tech.html

Eighteen months after taking over from Steve Jobs, Cook is facing rising production costs, competition from Samsung Electronics Co. and slowing growth in smartphones, threatening profits for the world’s most valuable company.
An earnings report tomorrow may show that fiscal first- quarter net income slipped 2 percent to $12.8 billion, or $13.48 a share, according to analysts’ estimates compiled by Bloomberg. That would be the first drop since 2003. In all except one quarter since that same year, profit has jumped more than 10 percent. Analysts project sales will rise 18 percent to $54.8 billion, the slowest growth rate since 2009.

:MARIS61:
 
Apple will just find something else that people think are cool to own. It's the circle of life.
 
Apple will just find something else that people think are cool to own. It's the circle of life.

I'm not sure I agree with this. All companies reach their climax and then experience slowed or negative growth. I'm not convinced either way that Apple hasn't reached the point of decelerating growth and a reduction in new, exciting and innovative products.

It is a much different and harder challenge to develop -> test -> iterate with hardware products as compared with software products. It is also much easier for growth of software startups that can be bought, and overpaid for, by large software companies in order to continue their growth and innovation. That's why I think that Google may be a better long-term prospect than Apple.
 
Apple is a closed ecology while Google is a fully open one.

Apple has grown tremendously with long product cycles. People were willing to upgrade their iPad1 to iPad2 to iPad3, etc.

I think their real issue is vision. They had it with Jobs leading the way. Not so sure they have it anymore.

I think they could score big with a new Apple TV that features an HDMI IN connection. Ideally, you could connect your DirectTV, Dish, or Cable box in and have the Apple TV do the guide, channel selection, recording management, etc.
 
I'm not sure I agree with this. All companies reach their climax and then experience slowed or negative growth. I'm not convinced either way that Apple hasn't reached the point of decelerating growth and a reduction in new, exciting and innovative products.

It is a much different and harder challenge to develop -> test -> iterate with hardware products as compared with software products. It is also much easier for growth of software startups that can be bought, and overpaid for, by large software companies in order to continue their growth and innovation. That's why I think that Google may be a better long-term prospect than Apple.

Well apple isn't just another microsoft or RIM company. They are really a damn good marketing company. The products haven't really been innovative for at least 6 years; but they figured the marketing strategy to stay ahead of the game. They make the consumer feel "cool" about owning their products. It's like someone buying a porsche. Yeah it has nice attributes like fast as fuck and german engineering; but the reality is people buy porsche because they want people to think they are cool. Well at least the majority of people owning porsches.

The biggest advantage for apple is their niché of the MP3 or online music purchases. They make things easy to purchase a song on your phone and it automatically syncs to all your computers and other devices connected to the account. The convienence is another niché.

And let's take a look at samsung. They haven't really innovated anything, but just copy the marketing strategy of apple and use their platform and basic fundementals. If Samsung was actually making new devices that are nothing like the iphone or ipad; then we would be onto something.
 
Apple is a closed ecology while Google is a fully open one.

Apple has grown tremendously with long product cycles. People were willing to upgrade their iPad1 to iPad2 to iPad3, etc.

I think their real issue is vision. They had it with Jobs leading the way. Not so sure they have it anymore.

I think they could score big with a new Apple TV that features an HDMI IN connection. Ideally, you could connect your DirectTV, Dish, or Cable box in and have the Apple TV do the guide, channel selection, recording management, etc.

Google already has this. It is a good device, but it doesn't change the game unless you get buy-in from the content providers. Otherwise you've just created a box that turns your tv into a monitor, which you can already do with any PC.
 
Well apple isn't just another microsoft or RIM company. They are really a damn good marketing company. The products haven't really been innovative for at least 6 years; but they figured the marketing strategy to stay ahead of the game. They make the consumer feel "cool" about owning their products. It's like someone buying a porsche. Yeah it has nice attributes like fast as fuck and german engineering; but the reality is people buy porsche because they want people to think they are cool. Well at least the majority of people owning porsches.

The biggest advantage for apple is their niché of the MP3 or online music purchases. They make things easy to purchase a song on your phone and it automatically syncs to all your computers and other devices connected to the account. The convienence is another niché.

And let's take a look at samsung. They haven't really innovated anything, but just copy the marketing strategy of apple and use their platform and basic fundementals. If Samsung was actually making new devices that are nothing like the iphone or ipad; then we would be onto something.

You're partially right. Apple has done a great job marketing but to compare electronics that need high turnover rates and huge volumes to owning a Porsche is going down the wrong path. Apple can't continue to grow with low volume and high prices like a Porsche.

And their advantage of having an ecosystem of products is being challenged by Google. It will be difficult for a hardware company to stay ahead of a powerful software company because software is so much easier and faster to try, fail and move on.

Your example of Samsung is odd. You say that Apple can continue to be successful without innovative products, but Samsung can't because they aren't making innovative products. The fact is that Samsung is really starting to cut into Apple's dominance whether Samsung's products are innovative or not.
 
Looks like the market is agreeing with me, at least for now. Apple down 6% in after-hours.
 
Google already has this. It is a good device, but it doesn't change the game unless you get buy-in from the content providers. Otherwise you've just created a box that turns your tv into a monitor, which you can already do with any PC.

They have content for Apple TV. You can purchase shows and movies and music. You can also watch Hulu and Netflix. I'm suggesting an Apple TV device that unifies all that with whatever your normal TV content provider gets you.

So your Apple TV would do the entire program guide. "Apple TV recommends... X from DirectTV, Y from Netflix, etc."

Your "DVR" like playlist might include stuff you've recorded mixed with stuff you've bookmarked to watch later. Like your weekly 2 1/2 men and Big Bang Theory episodes on the playlist along with your netflix instant queue.

It could even do picture in picture with DirectTV (or cable, or whatever) in one window and Netflix video in another.

In fact, the technology is pretty much there now. They have remote control apps for DirectTV on iPad/iPhone that talk to your box over WiFi and control it. An Apple TV on the same WiFi could similarly control things.
 
They have content for Apple TV. You can purchase shows and movies and music. You can also watch Hulu and Netflix. I'm suggesting an Apple TV device that unifies all that with whatever your normal TV content provider gets you.

So your Apple TV would do the entire program guide. "Apple TV recommends... X from DirectTV, Y from Netflix, etc."

Your "DVR" like playlist might include stuff you've recorded mixed with stuff you've bookmarked to watch later. Like your weekly 2 1/2 men and Big Bang Theory episodes on the playlist along with your netflix instant queue.

It could even do picture in picture with DirectTV (or cable, or whatever) in one window and Netflix video in another.

In fact, the technology is pretty much there now. They have remote control apps for DirectTV on iPad/iPhone that talk to your box over WiFi and control it. An Apple TV on the same WiFi could similarly control things.

Yes, I understand. But without the buy-in from the providers, it ain't happening and it won't be game changing.
 
Apple has stopped innovating. It blows.
 
I'm not seeing any good rumors about new products like in previous launch cycles.

More like, "apple released a smaller iPad because there was demand for it." That's not innovating.
 
I'm not seeing any good rumors about new products like in previous launch cycles.

More like, "apple released a smaller iPad because there was demand for it." That's not innovating.

Apple has issues; they suck at services, and have garnered a reputation that makes people expect crazy ass unicorns every year. Apple's done plenty of innovating in the last 10 years. None in the last 2 years though so punish the stock. Let's invest in Amazon with it's nutso P/E ratio instead.
 
I'm not seeing any good rumors about new products like in previous launch cycles.

More like, "apple released a smaller iPad because there was demand for it." That's not innovating.

There is going to be something launched that will innovate. I have this feeling. Jobs was a great man, but he was just good at finding the talent to help innovate. Those players are still at apple.
 
There is going to be something launched that will innovate. I have this feeling. Jobs was a great man, but he was just good at finding the talent to help innovate. Those players are still at apple.

This year is a "tock" year in a tick/tock cycle. Software update for iOS which will be pretty big (Jony Ive took over from Forstall there, so less skeumorphism); retina iPad mini that I've been waiting for; new desktop Mac Pro powerhouse; streaming music service; 4k res monitor possibly; retina-res Macbook Airs possibly... iWatch (ehn, whatever)

...not an Apple TV solution, though. That's kind of the last big hardware/media space Apple doesn't have a major stake in.

Next year... next year. Even the Yankees didn't win a title every year.
 

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