Politics Apple to hire 20,000, open second headquarters and pay $38 billion tax bill on overseas profits

[riverman]

If we lost 250,000 manufacturing jobs to outsourcing, as you claim,

I don't make claims..I'm not an economist...I merely posted an article that made this claim...just like you posted one that made your claim....it's not about me or you....it's just about contradictions

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't make claims..I'm not an economist...I merely posted an article that made this claim...just like you posted one that made your claim....it's not about me or you....it's just about contradictions

And I showed you the government official statistics that refute what "articles you're reading" (e.g. the media, which is biased as I just proved)

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

The quality of jobs created matters.

If Obama's job gains were mostly in service sector (flipping hamburgers) and Trump's job gains were high paying union jobs, then we're better off with Trump's jobs, no?

When Trump says "Make America Great Again," it says to me to bring us back to the post WW II years where we were the dominant superpower and manufacturing powerhouse (and elite educated society, etc.). We were so rich, we rebuilt multiple European nations that were devastated by the war.

When the economy sheds the quality jobs in favor of minimum wage ones, we're not going to be providing a decent living for a lot of the population.

The manufacturing jobs are a great alternative to going to college (it's not for everyone), or joining the military (same).

It really blows to see the media downright rooting for the economy to fail.

Not sure where you’re getting the idea that the media is rooting for the economy to fail. That’s a serious reach. It appears to me, that like so many of the rest of us, they’re waiting to see these jobs actually materialize....and stick around. So far it’s pretty much been verbal diarrhea and self administered back patting. A (proportionately) few jobs here and there don’t translate (at least yet) into a flow blown recovery......time will tell. But right now it’s more smoke and mirrors than anything close to reality.

 

[riverman]

You posted the spin.

Who's to say you didn't post the spin......I rarely post articles here...I could post fifty more with graphs and charts...no point....you can say the article I posted was spin.....I expect it ....I am glad you're happy about Trump for your sake....let's just simply understand.....I'm not happy at all with things in DC....the GNP bubble is not necessarily sticking around forever as you've stated...here s..the cost of living isn't matching wages much..

 

[riverman]

government official statistics

that's supposed to gain my trust? Last time I checked....government was investigating it's own employees and firing people who make decisions

 

[riverman]

(e.g. the media, which is biased as I just proved)

Trump is not biased?

 

[andalusian]

The quality of jobs created matters.

Of course. There is no data I have seen to support however that these jobs are high paying union jobs - a lot of them could be (and are likely to be) low-level assembly jobs.

If Obama's job gains were mostly in service sector (flipping hamburgers) and Trump's job gains were high paying union jobs, then we're better off with Trump's jobs, no?

Services of course also include financial, health and other services.

Given the following:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/04/news/economy/jobs-under-obama/index.html

47% of these were "higher wage jobs" - whatever this means.

When Trump says "Make America Great Again," it says to me to bring us back to the post WW II years where we were the dominant superpower and manufacturing powerhouse (and elite educated society, etc.). We were so rich, we rebuilt multiple European nations that were devastated by the war.

Is that going to happen in industries where commodification and automation are the drivers (like manufacturing) or elsewhere? That's exactly why I think it might be the wrong place to concentrate to do that. Manufacturing jobs are not going to be high-wages industries, these US manufacturers that still have these (like auto-manufacturers) have systematically been under-performers and have not grown.

Your argument is why I think we need to make sure that what needs to happen is to see where the US excels in (high-tech, services) - and try to bring these jobs everywhere in the country - instead of trying to revive industries that benefit from low-cost human capital.

When the economy sheds the quality jobs in favor of minimum wage ones, we're not going to be providing a decent living for a lot of the population.

Correct. But manufacturing jobs are low-income jobs the world over, mostly. There is not a huge growth in high-wage manufacturing jobs. So, any growth in these industries is going to be low-wage jobs.

The manufacturing jobs are a great alternative to going to college (it's not for everyone), or joining the military (same).

There are two things here - one, I agree with - manufacturing jobs are important, The other, that these are high-wage jobs, does not seem to be the pattern that modern economy the world over believes in. I very much doubt that 47% of these lasting manufacturing jobs will be "high wage" jobs.

So, the crux of the issue is - are these jobs better than services and high-tech jobs? Hard to tell. I suspect that given the quality of life that Americans expect and the trend of cheap labor used in manufacturing the world over - these jobs will not be high wage jobs and the only way to keep them is by artificial government intervention via tariffs.

 

[Denny Crane]

Not sure where you’re getting the idea that the media is rooting for the economy to fail. That’s a serious reach. It appears to me, that like so many of the rest of us, they’re waiting to see these jobs actually materialize....and stick around. So far it’s pretty much been verbal diarrhea and self administered back patting. A (proportionately) few jobs here and there don’t translate (at least yet) into a flow blown recovery......time will tell. But right now it’s more smoke and mirrors than anything close to reality.

Unemployment is down to 4.1% from 4.4% and it's not being done by people getting so discouraged that they leave the workforce and quit looking altogether.

It's remarkable because economists say that the 4.4% figure is the theoretical best unemployment rate possible. There's basically 4.4% of the workforce between jobs at any one time.

But yeah, we all want the jobs to stick around and continue to become better quality ones.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...owest-level-on-record/?utm_term=.a98c7b83e293
Black unemployment falls to lowest level on record


http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/08/news/economy/ivanka-trump-hispanic-unemployment-rate/index.html
Hispanic unemployment at all-time low under Trump

 

[Denny Crane]

that's supposed to gain my trust? Last time I checked....government was investigating it's own employees and firing people who make decisions

The swamp has spoken.

It's the best factual source possible, and has zero to do with opinion.

 

[Denny Crane]

Of course. There is no data I have seen to support however that these jobs are high paying union jobs - a lot of them could be (and are likely to be) low-level assembly jobs.



Services of course also include financial, health and other services.

Given the following:

http://money.cnn.com/2016/11/04/news/economy/jobs-under-obama/index.html

47% of these were "higher wage jobs" - whatever this means.




Is that going to happen in industries where commodification and automation are the drivers (like manufacturing) or elsewhere? That's exactly why I think it might be the wrong place to concentrate to do that. Manufacturing jobs are not going to be high-wages industries, these US manufacturers that still have these (like auto-manufacturers) have systematically been under-performers and have not grown.

Your argument is why I think we need to make sure that what needs to happen is to see where the US excels in (high-tech, services) - and try to bring these jobs everywhere in the country - instead of trying to revive industries that benefit from low-cost human capital.



Correct. But manufacturing jobs are low-income jobs the world over, mostly. There is not a huge growth in high-wage manufacturing jobs. So, any growth in these industries is going to be low-wage jobs.



There are two things here - one, I agree with - manufacturing jobs are important, The other, that these are high-wage jobs, does not seem to be the pattern that modern economy the world over believes in. I very much doubt that 47% of these lasting manufacturing jobs will be "high wage" jobs.

So, the crux of the issue is - are these jobs better than services and high-tech jobs? Hard to tell. I suspect that given the quality of life that Americans expect and the trend of cheap labor used in manufacturing the world over - these jobs will not be high wage jobs and the only way to keep them is by artificial government intervention via tariffs.

Manufacturing jobs tend to be union jobs. At least here in the USA.

I've seen service sector historically presented as food service, waiters/waitresses, hotel workers, etc. Professional services is not included.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...he-trend-may-not-hold/?utm_term=.3a71e9523e11

There are a number of forces driving the long-term decline in union membership. American manufacturing jobs historically had high union membership, but those jobs now make up a far smaller portion of the economy — down from about one-quarter of the American workforce in 1971 to about 10 percent in 2012.

 

[donkiez]

If the US wanted to put a big dent in the Chinese debt we've got they should go after copy right protection abuses....fake Gibson guitars...pirated movie DVDs..fake levis etc.....they've made billions illegally by pirating American brands....don't know why this is never an issue

Software piracy and IP is bigger than all of those and this was a big part of what TPP tried to accomplish, but we were all against that for other reasons.

 

[andalusian]

Manufacturing jobs tend to be union jobs. At least here in the USA.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/u...rivate-industry-and-public-sector-in-2014.htm

Less than 10% of manufacturing jobs were union jobs in 2014.

At the end of the day, the important thing to realize is that labor intensive jobs where good wages are being paid only make sense where these jobs are not to perform commodity type job without a special skill.

As long as people in the US are not willing to compete based on wages compared to 3rd world countries - there is really no real advantage to the US market in most manufacturing jobs that do not require special skills - this means that they need to be propped by artificial government subsidies (tariffs).

 

[Denny Crane]

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2015/u...rivate-industry-and-public-sector-in-2014.htm

Less than 10% of manufacturing jobs were union jobs in 2014.

They still tend to be union jobs.

The issue is the manufacturing sector has been decimated over the past few decades.

 

[Denny Crane]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ly-well-not-anymore-e/?utm_term=.27fca682be28

This is factory employment since 1977, for non-union workers and for workers in or covered by a union. Non-union employment grew, fell and is growing again post-recession (as I document in the Post today.) The net result is that there are about as many non-union factory workers today as there were in 1977. Meanwhile, about 80 percent of union factory jobs have disappeared.

 

[andalusian]

And as I pointed out, the reason manufacturing jobs are decimated - is because they do not make sense when there is no longer a market driven reason to have them here - we no longer live in a world where there is an advantage for many manufactured goods to originate locally - when you can get them cheaper and just as well made from elsewhere because the labor-intensive portion of the manufacture is so much cheaper.

We have seen that in industries where it makes sense (like agricultural items where their shelf life is short and proximity to market is important) - the jobs are still there.

This comes back to the point I am making - the only way to keep these jobs given the requirement of high wages - is by artificial means.

 

[Denny Crane]

And as I pointed out, the reason manufacturing jobs are decimated - is because they do not make sense when there is no longer a market driven reason to have them here - we no longer live in a world where there is an advantage for many manufactured goods to originate locally - when you can get them cheaper and just as well made from elsewhere because the labor-intensive portion of the manufacture is so much cheaper.

We have seen that in industries where it makes sense (like agricultural items where their shelf life is short and proximity to market is important) - the jobs are still there.

This comes back to the point I am making - the only way to keep these jobs given the requirement of high wages - is by artificial means.

Make America Great Again. Get it?

Bring back manufacturing and become a dominant player AGAIN. That is the plan as I've seen it expressed, and the results are promising.

A significant part of this plan is to undo the many uneven trade deals we've made as well as getting rid of punitive regulations that discourage businesses, in general. The tax bill, too. It's coherent.

There have been no artificial means that I've seen.

The response by companies, like Apple, has been to plan to hire 20,000 manufacturing workers.

 

[MarAzul]

Losing jobs to out sourcing to cheap labor markets, is much worse for our economy than losing the same jobs to automation in country.

 

[andalusian]

The response by companies, like Apple, has been to plan to hire 20,000 manufacturing workers.

Let's be clear here - Apple is not going to hire 20K manufacturing workers because Apple is not a manufacturer - for the exact reasons I mentioned. Apple out-sources manufacturing, they are a tech/style company because that's where the margins are. Given the free gift they were given to bring money with minimal tax on it - they will try to appease the administration - but I have no doubts that they will switch manufacturers as soon as lightning given the opportunity for cheaper options elsewhere - that has been their operating system for a long time now - and I do not expect it to change.

 

[andalusian]

Losing jobs to out sourcing to cheap labor markets, is much worse for our economy than losing the same jobs to automation in country.

So, you are basically all of high-tech, automation companies instead of cheap tricks to prop unreasonable manufacturing jobs. Me too.

 

[riverman]

Robotics are the future....whichever country embraces this fact will smoke the countries trying to prop up the industrial revolutions idea of manufacturing...at some point, people will need to find other skills that robots can't do.

 

[MarAzul]

So, you are basically all of high-tech, automation companies instead of cheap tricks to prop unreasonable manufacturing jobs. Me too.

I love that job, finding ways to automate union jobs.

But that does not mean there isn't a role to play using tariffs also. Tools are tools, selection of the right one is the skill needed. Tariffs maybe use for direct affect or indirect in another agenda and still be a tool.

 

[MarAzul]

For those that dislike the lack of global morality in tariffs.

What is the difference in Trump using a tariff on Chinese solar products, and Obama giving Solyndra a cheap Government loan? Or Tax credits for his version of desirable products, like Electric autos? It seems that is about what the Chinese did for their solar cells.

 

[Denny Crane]

Let's be clear here - Apple is not going to hire 20K manufacturing workers because Apple is not a manufacturer - for the exact reasons I mentioned. Apple out-sources manufacturing, they are a tech/style company because that's where the margins are. Given the free gift they were given to bring money with minimal tax on it - they will try to appease the administration - but I have no doubts that they will switch manufacturers as soon as lightning given the opportunity for cheaper options elsewhere - that has been their operating system for a long time now - and I do not expect it to change.

The talk is they might start making iPhones in the US. Or Foxconn might, too.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...8-billion-in-foreign-cash-taxes-idUSKBN1F62FJ

The company has been under increasing pressure to make U.S. investments since the 2016 presidential campaign, when Trump targeted the iPhone maker for making products in Asian factories.

While Apple has announced no plans to change that practice and experts say it would be economically impractical to make iPhones in the United States, the company has begun to emphasize its U.S. economic impact, from developers who sell software on its App Store to the tens of billions of dollars per year it spends with U.S. suppliers.

Between the spending plan, hiring 20,000 people, tax payments and business with U.S.-based suppliers, Apple on Wednesday estimated it would spend $350 billion in the United States over the next five years.

 

[riverman]

In the case of Apple...they'll make up the labor uptick in retail pricing...if you thought their shit was expensive now...it's going to cost a lot more if they make them here...

 

[MarAzul]

if you thought their shit was expensive now.

I don't know why you guys even buy that crap. I dislike apple's stuff and have for years. But then I gave up on using an Android last year too.
Damn thing would not do half of what it is reported to do. Then I found out, it depends on the carrier it was made to connect with. Like TMoble or ATT
or... Like an android made to connect with Tmobile will not tether, even if it is unlocked. No mention of these little naggles.

Perhaps when the day comes there is a standard for this crap, it will be usable for the owner, not someone else.

 

[Denny Crane]

ABC News. Not Fox News.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/anal...-trump-economy-blasting-off/story?id=52632659
Analysis: It’s the 'economy, stupid'. And right now, the Trump economy is blasting off

By TERRY MORAN
Jan 26, 2018, 1:00 PM E

(Terry Moran is a reporter who was injured badly while embedded with troops early in the overthrow of Saddam Hussein).

It’s the economy, stupid.

And right now, the Trump economy is blasting off.

Davos Man likes.

In conversations with business and political leaders gathered at theWorld Economic Forumin Davos, Switzerland, there is almost zero mention of the controversies which consume coverage of Trump in America.

Instead, people talk about the real possibility now that growth in the U.S. economy could hit 4 percent this year — a positively Clintonian benchmark. The impact worldwide would be tremendous.

We forget what that kind of economy means. Clinton averaged roughly 4 percentGDP growth. Record budget surpluses. Recordjob growth. Real household incomes up across the board. A skyrocketingstock market.

Money in peoples’ pockets—for college, for retirement, for vacations. Businesses booming. New ones starting. And the USA once again the engine pulling the world economy.

We’re a long way from that, for sure.

And there are analysts who say the world’s economies are simply being boosted by all the easy money central banks pumped into them for years — and that’s a bubble that will burst.

But business types here disagree. And they give a lot of credit to Trump for the renewed strength and vigor they sense in the sinews of the global economy.

Deregulation is the first thing they mention. The cost of doing business has come down fast. That means margins will go up. That’s why so many investors see American companies as such good bets.

And that’s all Trump.

The tax cut is also—no surprise—hugely popular here. It seems the old US corporate tax structure was operating as a kind of logjam in the world economy, freezing up the flow of money and distorting investment decisions.

The dam broke. Trump broke it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Just 25% of the workforce works for big corporations. Only 1/3 of the entire population works at all.

Great poll!

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/01/05/your-paycheck-may-be-going-up-soon-because-of-tax-cuts/

WHAT ABOUT THOSE FATTER PAYCHECKS?

That was the promise from the Republican architects of the tax plan. Deflecting criticism of the deeply unpopular legislation, they insisted Americans will come to love the new tax law when they see their heftier paychecks this year — with less money withheld in anticipation of lower income taxes.

“In February, look at your paychecks, because you’ll see the tax relief we delivered,” said Rep. Kevin Brady, head of the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee.

The Internal Revenue Service says employees could see “changes” in their paychecks as early as February. The agency first has to issue the new withholding tables for employers, reflecting the changes in tax rates for different income levels under the new law. That’s expected to happen sometime this month to give companies and payroll service providers — and their computer systems — time to adjust. Such a massive, universal change feels something like turning around an aircraft carrier.

 

[barfo]

Conclusion seems sound.

Trump broke it.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

It seems just a little odd that the opponents of this new tax bill, and there are many here in S2, do not or can not admit that receiving some tax from the overseas profits is better than none.

What's Apple's number? 32b in new taxes paid! Without this bill, they would pay nothing and no new investments would occur in this country from the overseas earnings. Why is this not a huge Win? In anyone's right mind???

 

[Denny Crane]

Conclusion seems sound.



barfo

Indeed. In context - the dam broke, unleashing the economic forces that were stifled under your guy's awful policies.