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Boob-No-More said:
With a username of Superbeard, I suspect there is a possibility you may be ever so slightly biased.

When you find yourself constantly making excuses for your best player, that's a pretty good indication you need to start looking for a new best player.

Yes, Harden is a HORRIBLE teammate, perhaps the worst in the league. Good teammates at least make an effort to play defense. Honestly, is there a lazier, more indifferent defender in the entire league than James Harden? There are plenty of bad defenders in the league, but I honestly can't think of anyone who puts in less effort on the defensive end than James Harden. To me, that's a shitty teammate.

As the best player and leader of his team, HE needs to step up and get his teammates on the same page. The whole Harden/Howard "cordially bad" relationship is at lest half Harden's fault.

And then there is this:

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/201...houston-rockets-face-dysfunctional-end-season

"Before the Houston Rockets lost Game 2 of their first-round playoff series against the Golden State Warriors, James Harden arrived at Oracle Arena in a black SUV with his bodyguard, marketing rep and four friends.

He chose not to ride in either of Houston's two team buses, something he has done all season because he likes to be certain he arrives at a specific time before every game, despite how it might look to observers.

When Harden walked through the arena's metal detectors, he held out his toiletry bag for a security guard and, instead of placing his cellphone into a customary plastic box, he handed it to his own security guard. He didn't wait for his bag to be checked. Harden instead strolled toward the locker room with the knowledge that someone would get his bag and bring his phone to him.

It was such a diva-like arrival to a playoff game, and rather odd given how badly the Rockets need togetherness in a trying season that has seen them underachieve and face criticism that they are not on the same page."

That makes Harden sound like the biggest douchebag, prima donna in all of sports. He's an aloof prick that considers himself too good to be sullied by sharing a ride with his lesser teammates. That is not a leader. That is not a good teammate. Rather than trying to build team unity, he spends his off court time hanging out with strippers and dating Kardashians. Neither seems to have endeared him to his teammates.

Quite frankly, I loved seeing the Rockets fail this season. I was actually glad when they stumbled into the playoffs, as it cost them their draft pick and I knew they would be slaughtered by the Warriors in the first round. A true best case scenario. Harden is my least favorite player in the entire league right now. As someone who has been following NBA basketball for almost 50 years, he offends me on every level. On one end, his game relies heavily on deception and fooling the refs into giving him free throws that he doesn't deserve. That's why I love the playoffs, the better, more experienced refs don't fall for his flopping nearly as often. On the other end, he puts forth zero effort. As a fan of the game of basketball, I hate watching him play. He is a disgrace. I'd also hate to be his teammate. His lack of effort on the defensive end would piss me off to no end. He saves all his effort to pad his stats on the offensive end, which gets him praise, notoriety and endorsement deals, but hurts his team. Anyone who knows anything about basketball can clearly see he's only half a player. I hope he retires a Rocket.

BNM
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Not to be snippy - but didn't you just describe LMA?
 
oldmangrouch said:
Not to be snippy - but didn't you just describe LMA?
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No, I didn't. When has there been reports of Aldridge spending all his free time at strip clubs and dating Kardashians? Aldridge puts in effort on the defensive end. Advanced stats show that he was a very underrated defender when in Portland and this year was a key member of the best defense in the league. Aldridge does not rely on flopping and deceiving the refs as a major component of his offensive game. So no, I did not just describe LaMarcus Aldridge, not even close.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
No, I didn't. When has there been reports of Aldridge spending all his free time at strip clubs and dating Kardashians? Aldridge puts in effort on the defensive end. Advanced stats show that he was a very underrated defender when in Portland and this year was a key member of the best defense in the league. Aldridge does not rely on flopping and deceiving the refs as a major component of his offensive game. So no, I did not just describe LaMarcus Aldridge, not even close.

BNM
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I wasn't talking about his game - yes the are very different. I was refering to what sort of team-mate he was. The aloofness, traveling separately from his team, etc.
 
oldmangrouch said:
I wasn't talking about his game - yes the are very different. I was refering to what sort of team-mate he was. The aloofness, traveling separately from his team, etc.
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You quoted my entire post, which included a description of Harden's game.

Aldridge only traveled separately one time that I'm aware of (took a different fight back to Portland after Game 2 in MEM last year). Harden travels separately to EVERY game in a private vehicle (doesn't ride the team buses from the hotel for road games), with his own personal entourage. Does Aldridge even have an entourage? If he does, they certainly never followed him around and licked his boots the way Harden's do.

Here's a description of Aldridge traveling separately:

"After the Trail Blazers dropped Game 2 to the Memphis Grizzlies in Memphis on Wednesday, Portland general manager Neil Olshey gave players two options: stay the night and fly home together on the team charter the next day, or return to Portland on their own"

Again, here's a description of Harden traveling separately:

"Before the Houston Rockets lost Game 2 of their first-round playoff series against the Golden State Warriors, James Harden arrived at Oracle Arena in a black SUV with his bodyguard, marketing rep and four friends.

He chose not to ride in either of Houston's two team buses, something he has done all season because he likes to be certain he arrives at a specific time before every game, despite how it might look to observers.

When Harden walked through the arena's metal detectors, he held out his toiletry bag for a security guard and, instead of placing his cellphone into a customary plastic box, he handed it to his own security guard. He didn't wait for his bag to be checked. Harden instead strolled toward the locker room with the knowledge that someone would get his bag and bring his phone to him.

It was such a diva-like arrival to a playoff game, and rather odd given how badly the Rockets need togetherness in a trying season that has seen them underachieve and face criticism that they are not on the same page."

I see absolutely zero similarity between the two. So again no, I did not "just describe LMA".

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
With a username of Superbeard, I suspect there is a possibility you may be ever so slightly biased.

When you find yourself constantly making excuses for your best player, that's a pretty good indication you need to start looking for a new best player.

Yes, Harden is a HORRIBLE teammate, perhaps the worst in the league. Good teammates at least make an effort to play defense. Honestly, is there a lazier, more indifferent defender in the entire league than James Harden? There are plenty of bad defenders in the league, but I honestly can't think of anyone who puts in less effort on the defensive end than James Harden. To me, that's a shitty teammate.

As the best player and leader of his team, HE needs to step up and get his teammates on the same page. The whole Harden/Howard "cordially bad" relationship is at lest half Harden's fault.

And then there is this:

http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/201...houston-rockets-face-dysfunctional-end-season

"Before the Houston Rockets lost Game 2 of their first-round playoff series against the Golden State Warriors, James Harden arrived at Oracle Arena in a black SUV with his bodyguard, marketing rep and four friends.

He chose not to ride in either of Houston's two team buses, something he has done all season because he likes to be certain he arrives at a specific time before every game, despite how it might look to observers.

When Harden walked through the arena's metal detectors, he held out his toiletry bag for a security guard and, instead of placing his cellphone into a customary plastic box, he handed it to his own security guard. He didn't wait for his bag to be checked. Harden instead strolled toward the locker room with the knowledge that someone would get his bag and bring his phone to him.

It was such a diva-like arrival to a playoff game, and rather odd given how badly the Rockets need togetherness in a trying season that has seen them underachieve and face criticism that they are not on the same page."

That makes Harden sound like the biggest douchebag, prima donna in all of sports. He's an aloof prick that considers himself too good to be sullied by sharing a ride with his lesser teammates. That is not a leader. That is not a good teammate. Rather than trying to build team unity, he spends his off court time hanging out with strippers and dating Kardashians. Neither seems to have endeared him to his teammates.

Quite frankly, I loved seeing the Rockets fail this season. I was actually glad when they stumbled into the playoffs, as it cost them their draft pick and I knew they would be slaughtered by the Warriors in the first round. A true best case scenario. Harden is my least favorite player in the entire league right now. As someone who has been following NBA basketball for almost 50 years, he offends me on every level. On one end, his game relies heavily on deception and fooling the refs into giving him free throws that he doesn't deserve. That's why I love the playoffs, the better, more experienced refs don't fall for his flopping nearly as often. On the other end, he puts forth zero effort. As a fan of the game of basketball, I hate watching him play. He is a disgrace. I'd also hate to be his teammate. His lack of effort on the defensive end would piss me off to no end. He saves all his effort to pad his stats on the offensive end, which gets him praise, notoriety and endorsement deals, but hurts his team. Anyone who knows anything about basketball can clearly see he's only half a player. I hope he retires a Rocket.

BNM
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That's such a sensational click bait piece it barely deserves discussion.

Call me bias, but would you call his peers bias? The people that have coached him? You can call me bias but it is a hardcore fact that he's accomplished more than Dame and you are calling him a loser, a horrible teammate, and all these other things based on what exactly? That someone will bring his phone to him to the locker room when he arrives at a stadium?

Fans over analyze this stuff way more than they should. Results matter and again, if Harden is a terrible teammate and horrible player then I'm not sure that that makes at least 95% of the NBA.

You talk about strip clubs and him dating Kardahians and how that didn't help him with his teammates as if you have a scoop. If you do the by all means produce it. Again, I'll go by what coaches and players have said about him over you. No offense but I think they probably have a better outlook on him as teammate and player than you do.

Edit: Players do what they do, they are people and they stuff off the court. Fact is, whatever Harden is doing off the court still makes him one of the more accomplished players in the NBA right now and he's still had a ton of team success, still has respect around the league, and still produces. Whether you like it or not. I'm not sure why people care what he's doing off the court, I'm sorry but many NBA players party during the offseason. Party DURING the season. Jalen Rose always talked about how they'd party in nearly every city they went to.

Whether that's Harden or not, I don't know. The guy gets caught partying one time during the offseason and people can't think for themselves and fall right into whatever narrative is fed them. I really don't know. I know that he was the only player last night that came into the game prepared, I do know that just by watching the game.
 
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Superbeard said:
Any evidence to that? Harden was voted MVP by the players, this included glowing praise from the likes of Wade, Blake Griffin, Durant and more. I've never heard anything bad about Harden as a teammate, Even McHale had good things to say about him. Coaches that work with Harden do as well, including Coach K who called him the leader of Team USA.

“James has been as good a leader as we’ve had for this team,” Team USA coach Mike Krzyzewski said,via USAB.com. “He has a great personality. He is an upbeat guy, smart, and he’s obviously very, very talented. With this group, especially after Kevin left, he has asserted himself even more as an older guy. I know him, he knows me, because we have worked together. He’s really one of our key guys. There is no question about it.”



How can we see? He led his team to the WCF last year? Does that not count? Was Kobe less of a leader when his team was 8th seed twice? Was Dirk less of a leader when his team was knocked out of the first round? (From an 8th seed at that) He's had more team success and individual success then your star player to be fair.
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To be fair, he didn't win a series as the star of a team until his 6th season. Lillard is in his 4th season.
 
I just think, in a weird way, that Harden is both the reason they made it to the WCF last year, and their utter and complete collapse thereafter.

He is not a player you build around, plain and simple.
 
Strenuus said:
I just think, in a weird way, that Harden is both the reason they made it to the WCF last year, and their utter and complete collapse thereafter.

He is not a player you build around, plain and simple.
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It's funny because I used to think I would take Harden over Westbrook. I remember thinking that OKC kept the wrong guy.

Now..... I would 100% take Westbrook over Harden.
 
Natebishop3 said:
It's funny because I used to think I would take Harden over Westbrook. I remember thinking that OKC kept the wrong guy.

Now..... I would 100% take Westbrook over Harden.
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Westbrook drives me nuts, I hate the guy... but the dude can ball... except mostly for when it matters. lol.
 
Superbeard said:
That's such a sensational click bait piece it barely deserves discussion.

Call me bias, but would you call his peers bias? The people that have coached him? You can call me bias but it is a hardcore fact that he's accomplished more than Dame and you are calling him a loser, a horrible teammate, and all these other things based on what exactly? That someone will bring his phone to him to the locker room when he arrives at a stadium?

Fans over analyze this stuff way more than they should. Results matter and again, if Harden is a terrible teammate and horrible player then I'm not sure that that makes at least 95% of the NBA.

You talk about strip clubs and him dating Kardahians and how that didn't help him with his teammates as if you have a scoop. If you do the by all means produce it. Again, I'll go by what coaches and players have said about him over you. No offense but I think they probably have a better outlook on him as teammate and player.
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Calm down and carry on Skippy. Please show me where I called Harden a loser. I didn't. You're making up shit I didn't say. It doesn't help your case.

So, Harden has accomplished more in his 7 years in the league than Lillard has in his 4? BFD, get back to me after Lillard's 7th season and we'll make that comparison again. Also, Harden has had the advantage of better teammates. Get back to me after Lillard has had the luxury of playing with a 4-time scoring champion and a 3-time defensive player of the year.

In terms of head-to head accomplishments:

Lillard 1
Harden 0

BNM
 
KingAlbertoJrSpeed said:
To be fair, he didn't win a series as the star of a team until his 6th season. Lillard is in his 4th season.
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Harden left college earlier, also this seems like a can't win situation for him.

He accepts the role as 6th man on a loaded team and gets 0 credit for this right? Brooks even asked if he wanted to start and he told him no, he continued to come off the bench and in his own words was content with that as long as they paid him the salary he thought he deserved. The Thunder by the way haven't been to the finals without James Harden.

Strenuus said:
I just think, in a weird way, that Harden is both the reason they made it to the WCF last year, and their utter and complete collapse thereafter.

He is not a player you build around, plain and simple.
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No, Harden was the reason they almost went up 2-0 against the Warriors and if Dwight did anything at all against his matchup they probably do.
 
Superbeard said:
Harden left college earlier, also this seems like a can't win situation for him.

He accepts the role as 6th man on a loaded team and gets 0 credit for this right? Brooks even asked if he wanted to start and he told him no, he continued to come off the bench and in his own words was content with that as long as they paid him the salary he thought he deserved. The Thunder by the way haven't been to the finals without James Harden.



No, Harden was the reason they almost went up 2-0 against the Warriors and if Dwight did anything at all against his matchup they probably do.
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Okay, so he gets joint custody on the child known as blame at best. Still stands to reason he is not someone you build around.
 
Superbeard said:
I'll go by what coaches and players have said about him over you. No offense but I think they probably have a better outlook on him as teammate and player than you do.
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It is incredibly rare for players/coaches to say anything remotely negative about other players/coaches. They speak in platitudes rather than saying anything meaningful. Unless someone is saying something that goes well beyond a platitude I don't put any stock in the words of players/coaches.

I don't care at all about what players do in their private lives (unless it's dog fighting, or something similar). But when your teammates are all going with the protocol and you're the lone wolf - well, you're an asshole.

We'll find out in a few months if players are hyped about teaming up with him. Last I recall Bosh preferred to go back to a "worse" roster in Miami, than join the paper tiger Rockets.
 
blue9 said:
It is incredibly rare for players/coaches to say anything remotely negative about other players/coaches. They speak in platitudes rather than saying anything meaningful. Unless someone is saying something that goes well beyond a platitude I don't put any stock in the words of players/coaches.

I don't care at all about what players do in their private lives (unless it's dog fighting, or something similar). But when your teammates are all going with the protocol and you're the lone wolf - well, you're an asshole.

We'll find out in a few months if players are hyped about teaming up with him. Last I recall Bosh preferred to go back to a "worse" roster in Miami, than join the paper tiger Rockets.
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My thoughts exactly.

Although, I think Bosh went back to Miami for the extra year, IIRC?
 
Boob-No-More said:
Calm down and carry on Skippy. Please show me where I called Harden a loser. I didn't. You're making up shit I didn't say. It doesn't help your case.

So, Harden has accomplished more in his 7 years in the league than Lillard has in his 4? BFD, get back to me after Lillard's 7th season and we'll make that comparison again. Also, Harden has had the advantage of better teammates. Get back to me after Lillard has had the luxury of playing with a 4-time scoring champion and a 3-time defensive player of the year.

In terms of head-to head accomplishments:

Lillard 1
Harden 0

BNM
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Come on man, you had not a single positive thing to say about him. You can be technical about the term if you want but you certainly don't think he's a winner.

Harden and Lillard are about the same age, he came out of college earlier and has more years on his NBA career because of being the better prospect. So I'm not sure how that's a knock against him.
Head to head doesn't really mean much especially since we are talking about who is the better player or teammate.
 
Superbeard said:
Head to head doesn't really mean much especially since we are talking about who is the better player or teammate.
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Please don't tell me you want to have an argument over whether Dame or Beard is the better teammate. Beard may be the more skilled player, but in no way could he ever be considered a better teammate - ever.
 
http://deadspin.com/austin-rivers-on-relationship-with-his-father-we-know-1773657468

Austin Rivers on his pops...

He doesn’t really share his life outside of basketball with me,” Austin said. “He and I don’t know each other like that. We know each other as strictly basketball. A lot of people on the outside don’t understand that because people think we have a relationship like every other father and son. We just don’t. That’s because he’s been gone my whole life, and that’s fine.
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I always figured his dad was playing him because he cared about him, I guess he is just a horrible judge of talent.
 
blue9 said:
It is incredibly rare for players/coaches to say anything remotely negative about other players/coaches. They speak in platitudes rather than saying anything meaningful. Unless someone is saying something that goes well beyond a platitude I don't put any stock in the words of players/coaches.

I don't care at all about what players do in their private lives (unless it's dog fighting, or something similar). But when your teammates are all going with the protocol and you're the lone wolf - well, you're an asshole.

We'll find out in a few months if players are hyped about teaming up with him. Last I recall Bosh preferred to go back to a "worse" roster in Miami, than join the paper tiger Rockets.
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What about Ex-players and teammates? Coach K named him the leader of the team, why didn't he name Curry of all people? Seems odd for a player that's a horrible teammate and selfish player. Seems odd that he declined to start on the Thunder.

Also Bosh got more money in Miami. Can't I just say that LMA wasn't interested in being Dame's teammate any more too? It wouldn't be fair at all would it?

Look, I'm not here to diss Dame. He's a great player and seems like a great teammate. Harden is too though and a lot of the crap he gets about being selfish but they really don't understand the situation which is this team has no offense, they barely have sets. Their offense is relying on Harden and he gets flack for doing what is asked of him by the team to do. This is their offense, it's been like this. The take turns playing ISO ball and it turns out Harden is better at that then Ariza, Beverly, or whoever else is on the team.

As for his defense, I can't even tell. The whole team's defense is crap, people highlight those Harden plays as if anyone on the Rockets is stopping anyone right now unfortunately. I mean Beverly and Ariza were torn apart last night and Howard gets outplayed by at least 50% of the league's centers.
 
Superbeard said:
What about Ex-players and teammates? Coach K named him the leader of the team, why didn't he name Curry of all people? Seems odd for a player that's a horrible teammate and selfish player. Seems odd that he declined to start on the Thunder.

Also Bosh got more money in Miami. Can't I just say that LMA wasn't interested in being Dame's teammate any more too? It wouldn't be fair at all would it?

Look, I'm not here to diss Dame. He's a great player and seems like a great teammate. Harden is too though and a lot of the crap he gets about being selfish but they really don't understand the situation which is this team has no offense, they barely have sets. Their offense is relying on Harden and he gets flack for doing what is asked of him by the team to do. This is their offense, it's been like this. The take turns playing ISO ball and it turns out Harden is better at that then Ariza, Beverly, or whoever else is on the team.

As for his defense, I can't even tell. The whole team's defense is crap, people highlight those Harden plays as if anyone on the Rockets is stopping anyone right now unfortunately. I mean Beverly and Ariza were torn apart last night and Howard gets outplayed by at least 50% of the league's centers.
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Dame has only CJ for offense, and no one else. Harden does have Howard.

Dame made it work with all the others to get theirs. Harden didn't.
 
Superbeard said:
What about Ex-players and teammates? Coach K named him the leader of the team, why didn't he name Curry of all people? Seems odd for a player that's a horrible teammate and selfish player. Seems odd that he declined to start on the Thunder.

Also Bosh got more money in Miami. Can't I just say that LMA wasn't interested in being Dame's teammate any more too? It wouldn't be fair at all would it?

Look, I'm not here to diss Dame. He's a great player and seems like a great teammate. Harden is too though and a lot of the crap he gets about being selfish but they really don't understand the situation which is this team has no offense, they barely have sets. Their offense is relying on Harden and he gets flack for doing what is asked of him by the team to do. This is their offense, it's been like this. The take turns playing ISO ball and it turns out Harden is better at that then Ariza, Beverly, or whoever else is on the team.

As for his defense, I can't even tell. The whole team's defense is crap, people highlight those Harden plays as if anyone on the Rockets is stopping anyone right now unfortunately. I mean Beverly and Ariza were torn apart last night and Howard gets outplayed by at least 50% of the league's centers.
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In the sports fraternity at large it's rare for anyone to say anything negative about anyone else. The fact that there are any spoken negative rumblings regarding Harden speaks volumes.

LMA didn't want to be Dame's teammate - totally true. But that speaks more to LMA than it does Dame. LMA didn't like Oden or Roy either, because they took the spotlight that he craved but was never willing to step into.

We don't have any sets either - everything we do is basically freelance.

Beard is a very talented player. But he also appears to be a big ass-hat prima donna, and he's an absolute disgrace to the game of basketball. These things are not mutually exclusive.
 
Strenuus said:
Dame has only CJ for offense, and no one else. Harden does have Howard.

Dame made it work with all the others to get theirs. Harden didn't.
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This is one bad year though? Harden has been on great teams every single year of his career, this feels a lot like kicking a man when he's down. ALso...

No, Howard is a terrible example. Howard couldn't work with Nash, Pau Gasol, or Kobe. Look at what ex teammates say about Howard, it's not pretty. If what players say is true then Howard is a lot like that guy you play ball with that always wants the ball and when you give it to him bricks most of the time and then mopes around when the rest of the team realizes he can't score so focus on getting offense other ways.

I'm really not sure how he's supposed to work with him.
 
blue9 said:
In the sports fraternity at large it's rare for anyone to say anything negative about anyone else. The fact that there are any spoken negative rumblings regarding Harden speaks volumes.

LMA didn't want to be Dame's teammate - totally true. But that speaks more to LMA than it does Dame. LMA didn't like Oden or Roy either, because they took the spotlight that he craved but was never willing to step into.

We don't have any sets either - everything we do is basically freelance.

Beard is a very talented player. But he also appears to be a big ass-hat prima donna, and he's an absolute disgrace to the game of basketball. These things are not mutually exclusive.
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I haven't heard any player negatively speak about Harden, either his current teammates or his ex-teammate. Even so, again no one is perfect. Rocket fans realize Hakeem had ego issues too.

I've seen plenty bad said about Dwight from Ex-Magic and Ex-Lakers teammates. I really don't know how much of this to blame is on Dwight Howard but I'm just saying, he has a track record for ruining team chemistry and Harden doesn't. That is to say that if the Rockets rebound after this then this season will be an aberration in his career.
 
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