Around the NBA: February 2016

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Draco said:
Westbrook isn't one of the 5 best NBA players. He's not even one of the 10 best. Maybe he sneaks into the top15. A top5 NBA player doesn't miss 19 shots with 7 turnovers. Thats not just stats from one game; he's had those hero ball hogging moments his entire career. Curry, LeBron, Lowry, Butler, Kawhi, Draymond, Davis, Aldridge, Harden, Cousins, Durant, CP3, Griffin, and Lillard are all superior.

He puts up big points and sportscenter dunks so everyone considers him top 5. He has good teammates. He couldn't help a decent roster get to the 8th seed when Durant was injured. Oh but he had a bunch of ball hogging triple doubles where his team lost so some consider him top5.
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Westbrook is 2.5 rebounds per game short of averaging a triple double. I would make him top 10 this year.
 
KingAlbertoJrSpeed said:
No the Bulls did not. Bulls were eliminated in the second round without Jordan. ECF that year was Knicks/Pacers.
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That's true, though the Knicks bypassed the Bulls with the help of what many considered one of the worst referee calls in playoff history. It is pretty remarkable that the Bulls were a contender replacing Michael Jordan with Pete Myers. IMO, that season shows how important Scottie Pippen was even if he was overshadowed by the best player ever as a teammate most of his Bulls career.
 
Draco said:
He's having the greatest season in the history of basketball. Its certainly possible he could be the greatest of all time if he strings together a few of these.

Jordan never had a year as dominant as Curry is having. Please don't bring up those 72win Bulls; they played in a weak expansion era with two new teams. There were more terrible teams; and far fewer quality opponents as in today's game.

Jordans dominance did remind me of these Warriors in that they sucked the hope out of opponenets. Shaq did that for a few years. Kobe never did.
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Jesus Christ. Jordan averaged 30/8/8 and 3 steals on 54% shooting one year. He also averaged 37/5/5 and 3 steals another year. And he did it 3 guys on him a lot of the time. If you think Curry is better than Jordan then you didn't watch Jordan play. In 1991 Finals, Jordan averaged 30 ppg and 11 apg on 55% shooting, get back to me when Curry does that. Jordan was the most unstoppable player I've seen in the 27 years I've watched the NBA. Shaq was close. Curry hasn't even won Finals MVP.
 
KingAlbertoJrSpeed said:
No the Bulls did not. Bulls were eliminated in the second round without Jordan. ECF that year was Knicks/Pacers.
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Okay, second round is still an accomplishment without Jordan. Do you think GSW gets to the second round without Curry?
 
Minstrel said:
That's true, though the Knicks bypassed the Bulls with the help of what many considered one of the worst referee calls in playoff history. It is pretty remarkable that the Bulls were a contender replacing Michael Jordan with Pete Myers. IMO, that season shows how important Scottie Pippen was even if he was overshadowed by the best player ever as a teammate most of his Bulls career.
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The next season, Bulls weren't all that great til Jordam came back near the end of the season.
 
Natebishop3 said:
But how do you factor in rule changes? How do you factor in team defenses?

What team in the league today would be comparable to the Bad Boy Pistons or the Riley Knicks?
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Jordan dunked over Ewing and Olajawon. Curry gets lay ups against Plumlee.
 
Ok, let's "adjust Curry's numbers for MPG," but please also let us adjust them for the era that Jordan played in, which was MUCH more physical. Guys like Gary Payton would've hung 30+ per night on Curry AND locked Stephen down on the other, defensively.

Michael fucking Jordan... !? Give me a fucking break! Jordan would rip Curry's heart of his chest & shit on it at center-court--figuratively speaking, of course!
 
Anyhow the GSW / OKC game last night was a great game to watch.

Durant hit a clutch 3, then threw the ball away with seconds on the clock, then fouled Iggy on a rushed shot. Durant fouled out early in OT, a rare thing. And it still went down to the wire.
 
Denny Crane said:
Anyhow the GSW / OKC game last night was a great game to watch.

Durant hit a clutch 3, then threw the ball away with seconds on the clock, then fouled Iggy on a rushed shot. Durant fouled out early in OT, a rare thing. And it still went down to the wire.
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OKC never should have let go of Harden.
 
KingAlbertoJrSpeed said:
The next season, Bulls weren't all that great til Jordam came back near the end of the season.
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They had lost Horace Grant that season. So that was two of their best three players from their first threepeat gone.
 
Didn't know where to put this, but do you guys remember during the introductory presser when Dwight Jaynes asked Gerald about his questionable 3pt shooting and before he could answer, Stotts replied with "Look at his corner 3...hot!"?

Welp, Gerald is shooting .469% his 3's from the corners at a .511% clip, both highs on the team.
 
Minstrel said:
Jordan also played 40.2 MPG. Curry is averaging 33.9 MPG.

Adjusting for minutes, Curry's line would be: 37 PPG/ 8 APG / 6.4 RPG / 2.5 SPG. And that's on 0.685 TS% vs. Jordan's .614 TS%.
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Of course, that assumes that he keeps up the same level of shooting while playing 6 more minutes every night. And if you're going to compare, how about working out the average score in games of Jordan's year and working out what percentage his ppg is of that, and comparing Curry's. It seems to me that scoring has been going up and and up recently.

Curry is unreal, that's for sure. He's also unreal in a system that's designed to get him shots. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and I think team basketball is much to be preferred over isolation and one-on-one (90s basketball was frequently pretty unwatchable) but by the same token, the team should get more of the credit than the individual.

Minstrel said:
Curry is not Jordan's equal as an on-ball defender, that much is true, mostly due to his size (Curry puts in effort on that end and has solid technique).
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Not just size: Curry is athletic for your average human (even very athletic) but he's just average for the NBA. Jordan was one of the most athletic players ever. Plus he had an intimidation factor only rivaled by Gary Payton.

Minstrel said:
Curry is a good team/off-ball defender. Beyond that, though, it's quite legitimate to argue that Curry is having a superior season to Jordan.
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They have yet to invent stats that do defense justice. You just have to go by the eye test. Curry has certainly improved his defense. He may even be decent. But he is also benefited by the lack of illegal defense rules because it's harder for another team just to isolate him and work on him.

It's also interesting that a couple of PGs have really gone at Curry and outscored him - Lowry and Lillard. If that happened to Jordan, I must've missed it. I was rooting for it to happen every time, because I hated him.

I think all of this shows that it's pretty much impossible to compare people from different eras. Curry is an amazing product of his era. I've never seen a shooter like him. I don't hate him like I hated Jordan... yet. And I'd rank him behind Kobe in terms of all-round talent (and Kobe behind Jordan, of course).

(The contrast between him and LeBron in the finals is instructive. Curry was probably the MVP of the Warriors simply because of how much effort the Cavs exerted to stop him. However, the fact remains that they did slow him down considerably. Meanwhile LeBron was like the Incredible Hulk out there despite losing the only other teammates who could score, so the Warriors could focus on him exclusively. I don't see Jordan being remotely troubled by Matthew Delevedova.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Of course, that assumes that he keeps up the same level of shooting while playing 6 more minutes every night. And if you're going to compare, how about working out the average score in games of Jordan's year and working out what percentage his ppg is of that, and comparing Curry's. It seems to me that scoring has been going up and and up recently.

Curry is unreal, that's for sure. He's also unreal in a system that's designed to get him shots. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and I think team basketball is much to be preferred over isolation and one-on-one (90s basketball was frequently pretty unwatchable) but by the same token, the team should get more of the credit than the individual.



Not just size: Curry is athletic for your average human (even very athletic) but he's just average for the NBA. Jordan was one of the most athletic players ever. Plus he had an intimidation factor only rivaled by Gary Payton.



They have yet to invent stats that do defense justice. You just have to go by the eye test. Curry has certainly improved his defense. He may even be decent. But he is also benefited by the lack of illegal defense rules because it's harder for another team just to isolate him and work on him.

It's also interesting that a couple of PGs have really gone at Curry and outscored him - Lowry and Lillard. If that happened to Jordan, I must've missed it. I was rooting for it to happen every time, because I hated him.

I think all of this shows that it's pretty much impossible to compare people from different eras. Curry is an amazing product of his era. I've never seen a shooter like him. I don't hate him like I hated Jordan... yet. And I'd rank him behind Kobe in terms of all-round talent (and Kobe behind Jordan, of course).

(The contrast between him and LeBron in the finals is instructive. Curry was probably the MVP of the Warriors simply because of how much effort the Cavs exerted to stop him. However, the fact remains that they did slow him down considerably. Meanwhile LeBron was like the Incredible Hulk out there despite losing the only other teammates who could score, so the Warriors could focus on him exclusively. I don't see Jordan being remotely troubled by Matthew Delevedova.
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Jordan would've been triple teamed by Dellevedova, Smith, and Shumpert and still drop 40.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Curry is unreal, that's for sure. He's also unreal in a system that's designed to get him shots. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and I think team basketball is much to be preferred over isolation and one-on-one (90s basketball was frequently pretty unwatchable) but by the same token, the team should get more of the credit than the individual.
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Sure, but by the same token, that team basketball is also leveraging Curry in ways '90s/'00s basketball didn't leverage Jordan and Kobe. Curry's gotten a lot of press for his "gravity," which has led to numerous 4-on-3s for the Warriors below the break. While Jordan and Kobe certainly attracted attention, their lack of Curry-like range limited how much they opened up the court for their teammates. I think that a proper accounting of how much Curry owes success to the rest of his team (some) and how much the rest of his teammates owe success to Curry (more) would actually put even more value in Curry's bucket overall.

Not just size: Curry is athletic for your average human (even very athletic) but he's just average for the NBA. Jordan was one of the most athletic players ever. Plus he had an intimidation factor only rivaled by Gary Payton.
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I'd put Pippen in that class (and a superior defender to either, but since we're talking only perceptions in that last line, he probably didn't out-class them in "fear"), but that's a perfectly fair point that I'll cede.

It's also interesting that a couple of PGs have really gone at Curry and outscored him - Lowry and Lillard. If that happened to Jordan, I must've missed it. I was rooting for it to happen every time, because I hated him.
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The Bulls rarely tasked Jordan to take on the other team's best scorer, because they had Pippen for that. I wouldn't remotely suggest that it's because Jordan couldn't have done well in general, but I'm relatively sure they wanted not to overwork Jordan on both ends. I do remember Jordan getting into "scoring duels" with players he was primarily responsible for (which is a euphemistic way to say neither player could stop the other), but I can't remember names and dates anymore.

(The contrast between him and LeBron in the finals is instructive. Curry was probably the MVP of the Warriors simply because of how much effort the Cavs exerted to stop him. However, the fact remains that they did slow him down considerably. Meanwhile LeBron was like the Incredible Hulk out there despite losing the only other teammates who could score, so the Warriors could focus on him exclusively. I don't see Jordan being remotely troubled by Matthew Delevedova.
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James put up incredible raw numbers, but his efficiency was terrible. James' scoring was basically by dint of taking tons and tons of shots, inefficiently. I'd still call it an impressive performance, because the other options were worse, it still required a lot of strength and effort.

I don't think it's fair, though, to ding Curry for being "troubled by Delevedova." Delevedova was never responsible for Curry by himself, his responsibility was always to channel him towards help. Curry has always been pretty happy to pass the ball to teammates who are open and the Cavaliers' entire defensive philosophy was to force the ball out of Curry's hands. Even this season, when he's gone full supernova, he's had 19-23 points in easy victories because he's been content to pass out of double teams 30 feet from the hoop, letting Green trigger a 4-on-3. I would think this would be a mark in his favor with you!

Honestly, stylistically and in terms of mentality, I'd really compare Curry more to Magic Johnson. Yes, his scoring and size don't suggest the comparison, but his desire to thrill, willingness to create for others and obvious joy he takes in playing the game are very comparable, in my opinion. In reality, there really isn't a clean comparison between Curry and anyone in the past.
 
I've got to say that, while I agree that most of the old geezers complaining that the Warriors (and Curry) ain't all that are just whiny old geezers, I also agree with Oscar Robertson that the defense on Curry seems pretty shoddy most of the time. Look, you know he's got range from midcourt, so why the fuck do you sag off him so often? He's Stephen Fucking Curry - don't defend him like he's Ricky Rubio. But I see this playing pickup all the time. Basically in pickup basketball the midrange game is non-existent - everybody just jacks up 3s or gets layups. But NOBODY will guard up close on the three point line. They're obsessed with not being blown by, despite the fact that in pickup the layup is worth HALF what the "three point" (i.e. 2 point) shot is worth, and despite the fact that most players can hit them better than they can layups. In general, defense everywhere is shoddy in the extreme. Nobody practices it and nobody seems to use their brains.
 
The Warriors have become adept at exploiting aggressive face defense by backcuts. The Orlando Magic defended Curry aggressively, essentially doing what Robertson recommended, "extending their defense out a little" with Oladipo and Curry backcut him for easy layups until he stopped trying to beat Curry to the spots he wanted the ball or to the screens.

When Curry has the ball, I don't really see players sagging off him unless it's because they're reacting to someone penetrating into the paint. That's a mistake, but not exactly shoddy defense...it's their usual basketball instincts and priorities letting them down, because preventing an easy drive through the paint is always supposed to take precedence over defending someone 25 feet from the hoop. Curry changes that, but it's hard to completely change your wiring for a guy you play rarely.

I don't think there's any particular league-wide failure in defending Curry, he's just really, really good. He's not just a great shooter, he's also an elite ball-handler, passer, finisher and decision-maker. Whatever you do, he's going to put your defense in jeopardy...and any mistake tends to get punished.
 
Minstrel said:
The Warriors have become adept at exploiting aggressive face defense by backcuts. The Orlando Magic defended Curry aggressively, essentially doing what Robertson recommended, "extending their defense out a little" with Oladipo and Curry backcut him for easy layups until he stopped trying to beat Curry to the spots he wanted the ball or to the screens.

When Curry has the ball, I don't really see players sagging off him unless it's because they're reacting to someone penetrating into the paint. That's a mistake, but not exactly shoddy defense...it's their usual basketball instincts and priorities letting them down, because preventing an easy drive through the paint is always supposed to take precedence over defending someone 25 feet from the hoop. Curry changes that, but it's hard to completely change your wiring for a guy you play rarely.

I don't think there's any particular league-wide failure in defending Curry, he's just really, really good. He's not just a great shooter, he's also an elite ball-handler, passer, finisher and decision-maker. Whatever you do, he's going to put your defense in jeopardy...and any mistake tends to get punished.
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Remember in Game 5 of 2005 NBA Finals? Everyone knew Bob Horry was gonna take the last shot but Sheed stupidly left him open to help on defense. He let his instincts throw him off.
 
Curry is the greatest shooter I've ever seen in the three point era. That doesn't make him the best player in history, not by a long shot. I don't know why this isn't obvious on its face.
 
Anthony Bennett just got cut, I bet he's glad he didn't come here now.
 
BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94 said:
He isn't even the best player of this era.
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Are you talking about LeBron? 08-09 regular season LeBron was the most dominant player I've seen in the past decade before this season, but he wilted in the playoffs.

His support was worse than Curry's of course, but I still put this years Curry over LeBron that year.
 
B-Roy said:
Are you talking about LeBron? 08-09 regular season LeBron was the most dominant player I've seen in the past decade before this season, but he wilted in the playoffs.

His support was worse than Curry's of course, but I still put this years Curry over LeBron that year.
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12-13 LeBron absolutely shits on Curry. Curry can't be the best player of this era on defense alone. They hide the guy.
 
BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94 said:
12-13 LeBron absolutely shits on Curry. Curry can't be the best player of this era on defense alone. They hide the guy.
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"Absolutely shits" is a gross exaggeration if anything.

Defense point taken, but team defense is much more important than individual defense now anyways, and the Warriors are still a top defense team while "hiding" Curry.

At the very least, he's the best offensive player of this era.
 
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