Around the NBA: Maudlin May edition

[blazerkor]

well, I sure haven't spent much time defending the Clippers trade as a good trade. It did do good things financially for Portland starting with dumping Powell's contract (which was a bad contract in Portland); it got the Blazers well under the tax line this season while trimming 68M in future salary. And it added a 6.5M TPE

so it wasn't all bad. And that trade in conjunction with the Pels trade made it much less awkward to re-sign Simons and Nurkic; and more possible (but still unlikely) to use their full-MLE this summer.

the timing of the trade certainly was questionable. But more than that, dealing with a team that didn't have a 1st round pick to trade till 2028 was questionable. But the most over-arching questionable part of the trade (in my tin-foil brain), was the relationship between Jody Allen and Ballmer. That cozy vibe makes me suspicious of the "low" cost for the Clippers

as for your points about RoCo:

* a S&T would have required Portland to keep him till the summer; but if he's not included, Blazers go deeper into the tax rather than get under the line. And I'm certain that the Blazers were not intending to re-sign RoCo for 12M/year. Besides, there is not much evidence there would have been a S&T market for RoCo. LOL...maybe the Clippers....they could have sent Winslow & Johnson!!

* as for Portland trading him at the deadline: here is the list of deadline trades:

https://www.nba.com/news/2021-22-nba-trade-tracker

I'd be curious which of those trades you believe that RoCo has value such that the Blazers could have stepped in front of one team or the other
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there is certainly a lot of disagreement about the trade deadline. A lot of it seems based upon the recurring assumption that there just had to be better trade out there because "there just had to be"; that the assets Portland sent out had much better value than the return. There is really nothing to support those positions other than the convictions it just had to be so

for me, it's much more baseline:

* I don't know exactly what instructions Cronin was given by the Vulcans. But I'm guessing it was "dismantle Olshey's mess as much as you can". The way the Vulcans handled Olshey's firing sure seems to indicate they were done with Olshey and his overpriced rosters and over-paid players.

* the idea that the Blazers could have an elegant pivot point from a pretender to a contender by trading pretending assets for contending assets is simply unrealistic. The roster at the beginning of February was a dead-end roster. Portland had been in that dead-end for years. And there was no cul-de-sac at the end of the dead-end, it was a brick wall. There was no room to turn around. Blazers had to back out of that dead-end and that will take time. Hopefully not as long as it took to get to that brick wall.

* that dead-end roster was a tax team and was obviously going nowhere. The players traded were being paid half of the payroll. They offered no upside to Portland, only downside. Where is the lost value? I just don't see it. This isn't an addition-by-subtraction argument. It's an argument that sometimes the only path is subtraction. And that was the reality of that brick wall

I agree with everything you're saying and at the same time think that when you are backing away from a brick wall and giving up players that have value, you can't just give those players away. You can subtract salary and talent but in our case where cap space does not equal incoming talent, you have to get draft assets to offset the talent discrepancy. I know you know that and I know you don't think Cronin did a masterful job.

The trade deadline could have been better and if you're going to pull the trigger on the first trade so early it has to be better and the second trade just needed more contingencies on that first round pick than dropping all the way back to the Bucks pick in 2025 when Giannis will likely be at his apex... especially when they had the possibility that became a reality of the Lakers pick this year, their pick and the better of the Lakers and Pelicans pick next year and the Lakers pick and the better of theirs and the Pelicans pick in 2024 (all first rounders without protections). Those are five opportunities for contingencies, every one of which projects to have better value than what we settled for. That's some shitty negotiating for someone who hasn't even been hired for the job. When Cronin touted the TPE as the biggest asset that we got in the trade (besides the ability that we already had to re-sign our own guys which just pisses me off) he should have been damn sure he had the draft capital needed to capitalize on the TPE and I don't know shit, so maybe he does.

If we come away from the off season with a nice player drafted with our lotto pick and Jerami Grant without having to guarantee the Bulls pick and dip into our future first rounders, then I'm pretty sure that will be mission accomplished for Cronin... I don't know if that vision that Cronin has for the team actually works but I will shut the fuck up at that point about how much of a failure he was at the deadline. If that TPE and the draft capital that we got in those trades doesn't land us a starting quality player then it was a massive failure on Cronin's part, even if the mandate was to back away from the brick wall no matter what. He got unlucky with the Pels pick but he also put himself in position to be dependent on luck and bet against the value of the player he was sending out. We're still in wait and see mode on if Cronin can somehow pull a rabbit out of his hat while standing in a dumpster fire that he lit but personally I would be very excited if he wasn't allowed that opportunity and was either replaced by a guy like Tayshaun Prince or at least a guy like that was hired to supervise Cronin and make the final decisions.

 

[wizenheimer]

I agree with everything you're saying and at the same time think that when you are backing away from a brick wall and giving up players that have value, you can't just give those players away.

they didn't just give them away though:

* IF Winslow stays healthy he can do as many good things as RoCo. He just doesn't have the perimeter shooting
* there was no place in the roster for a 6'3 SF; and a backup SG on a 90M deal is a bad idea. Maybe Keon is a good idea
* the Dame/CJ back court HAD to end
* Nance is undependable. He simply can't stay healthy and was injured at the time of the trade

* we really don't know what the market was for the traded players. The only indication we have is for CJ and the reported offers from Atlanta and Dallas sure seem to indicate that CJ didn't have nearly as much value as everybody here hoped

but you know all that. You also know that it took dumping those players to give Portland a decent chance at a top-4 pick

I still think all the discontent hinges on two things:

#1a) the unsupported faith that the players traded had a lot more value than the return

#1b) the Pels pick not conveying

you and I have discussed #1b) before. And I've discussed it with other dissatisfied customers here. The consensus is that if that pick had been conveyed, the combo of the 2 trades would have been OK; not great, but acceptable. In other words, the make-or-break point on the trades is the perfect storm of negative factors that fucked Portland out of the 11th pick

 

[blazerkor]

they didn't just give them away though:

* IF Winslow stays healthy he can do as many good things as RoCo. He just doesn't have the perimeter shooting
* there was no place in the roster for a 6'3 SF; and a backup SG on a 90M deal is a bad idea. Maybe Keon is a good idea
* the Dame/CJ back court HAD to end
* Nance is undependable. He simply can't stay healthy and was injured at the time of the trade

* we really don't know what the market was for the traded players. The only indication we have is for CJ and the reported offers from Atlanta and Dallas sure seem to indicate that CJ didn't have nearly as much value as everybody here hoped

but you know all that. You also know that it took dumping those players to give Portland a decent chance at a top-4 pick

I still think all the discontent hinges on two things:

#1a) the unsupported faith that the players traded had a lot more value than the return

#1b) the Pels pick not conveying

you and I have discussed #1b) before. And I've discussed it with other dissatisfied customers here. The consensus is that if that pick had been conveyed, the combo of the 2 trades would have been OK; not great, but acceptable. In other words, the make-or-break point on the trades is the perfect storm of negative factors that fucked Portland out of the 11th pick

The problem is "not great, but acceptable" shouldn't be good enough to give a guy the permanent GM job if that's the top basketball guy in the organization and that same guy allowed for that perfect storm to not only fuck us out of the 11th pick but also let that pick drop all the way back to the Bucks 2025 first. I just view these obvious shortcomings as signs that Cronin is not the guy for the job or that he needs day to day supervision that is more shrewd or competitive or both.

*I don't think Winslow's history dictates that he can be as valuable as RoCo even when healthy
*There is no such thing as a 6'3" SF and I don't think that deal looks that bad for a heavy rotation backup guard. Also maybe Keon is a good idea but that's an awfully big maybe
*The Dame/CJ back court HAD to end and Nance is undependable, can't seem to stay healthy and was injured at the time of the trade. So while I wouldn't have been over the moon for that trade if the eleventh pick would have conveyed, I also wouldn't be killing it. It did not convey, so yeah, I'm killing that trade.

 

[wizenheimer]

The problem is "not great, but acceptable" shouldn't be good enough to give a guy the permanent GM job if that's the top basketball guy in the organization

I think most of those posters, like myself, pushing back against the rabid negativity about the two trades aren't turning around and advocating for Cronin to get the job permanently. I know that I haven't advocated that

I just don't think the trades, all things considered, are nearly as bad as what some people, including yourself believe

furthermore, I'm fairly convinced that Cronin likely did very well in the eyes of the Vulcans. As I said, I think the two main priorities out of Seattle were to 1) cut current and future payroll; and 2) dismantle the dead end roster while keeping Dame. I'm of two minds about that, one says those priorities were needed; the other says accomplishing those tasks is probably not the needed resume for the next GM. But the Vulcans may very well disagree

whether you agree or not I think the best path forward for the Blazers would be a path under new ownership. I am completely unimpressed with Jody Allen and I pretty much detest the Vulcan mindset

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I think most of those posters, like myself, pushing back against the rabid negativity about the two trades aren't turning around and advocating for Cronin to get the job permanently. I know that I haven't advocated that

I just don't think the trades, all things considered, are nearly as bad as what some people, including yourself believe

furthermore, I'm fairly convinced that Cronin likely did very well in the eyes of the Vulcans. As I said, I think the two main priorities out of Seattle were to 1) cut current and future payroll; and 2) dismantle the dead end roster while keeping Dame. I'm of two minds about that, one says those priorities were needed; the other says accomplishing those tasks is probably not the needed resume for the next GM. But the Vulcans may very well disagree

whether you agree or not I think the best path forward for the Blazers would be a path under new ownership. I am completely unimpressed with Jody Allen and I pretty much detest the Vulcan mindset

Yeah I agree with this!
I believe the Blazers desperately need new ownership but I’m also a little picky about who that might end up being?
I truly want a competitive person or group on this. Not just rich that wants a toy to play with.

 

[THE HCP]

Yes!!!!

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Yes!!!!

Good for Terry. Hope he considers it.

 

[Tince]

Well for all of you that didn't think RoCo and his bird rights were worth anything, you were wrong. The Clippers just got a rotation player better than anyone they could have gotten in free agency even with the TPMLE and still have that ~6M exception to get another rotation player.

Justise, Keon and a slap in the face second rounder for the guys that will be their first and second off the bench when they are contending next season. Joe "Santa Claus" Cronin, the Clippers thank you for your gifts.

One team overpaying to retain a guy is not proof said player would be of good value to other teams. I think it's much more likely the LAC realized they couldn't even get one 1st round pick for him (let alone the two Olshey gave up) and they were forced to either overpay or lose him for nothing, something Portland didn't want to do again like they have done with Meyers, Crabbe, etc.

Also, comparing our moves with the moves of the Clippers, who have an owner willing to go deep into the tax is apples and oranges.

 

[julius]

Good for Terry. Hope he considers it.

Guess the Lakers aren't interested in playing defense

 

[Predator]

Maybe they value one of the most disruptive help defenders in the league who happens to be a pretty consistent three point threat that will supply the team with floor spacing off the bench. He was the only player in the league to have over 90 steals and 90 blocks this past season and he shot 45% from three for the Clippers.

The fact is that if the Clippers don't add any rotation players in free agency and are healthy next season they already have a rotation of Jackson, George, Leonard, Morris, Zubac, Powell, Covington, Kennard and Mann. That's a contender and the guys we gave them give them some serious depth.

And if my aunt had a dick she’d be my uncle.

Relying on those players to be healthy is about as likely as Zach Collins being healthy. Or Anthony Davis.

 

[Predator]

Yes!!!!

Well, if he gets the job I’ll have to eat some crow.

That said, he isn’t getting the job.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Guess the Lakers aren't interested in playing defense

Might be surprised.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Well, if he gets the job I’ll have to eat some crow.

That said, he isn’t getting the job.

My bet is he’s already been offered the job and it’s his to take if he wants it.

 

[Predator]

My bet is he’s already been offered the job and it’s his to take if he wants it.

I highly doubt they’ve formally offered the job to anyone. They’ve interviewed two candidates as far as I know.

And I bet Woj would’ve said, “The lakers have formally offered the job to Terry Stotts” if that were the case.

Id also be shocked if they offered the job before interviewing someone like… Darvin Ham.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I highly doubt they’ve formally offered the job to anyone. They’ve interviewed two candidates as far as I know.

And I bet Woj would’ve said, “The lakers have formally offered the job to Terry Stotts” if that were the case.

Id also be shocked if they offered the job before interviewing someone like… Darvin Ham.

My thinking is the Lakers need a solid tried and true coach right now. Not another project or even questionable option running the team.
Stotts might not last there but if he gets that job with LeBron and AD they will make the playoffs.

 

[THE HCP]

Guess the Lakers aren't interested in playing defense

But they are in making the playoffs

 

[Fairly-Hard]

But they are in making the playoffs

Time and time again these guys will start talking about Stats and percentages but forget that all means squat if you don’t make the playoffs.

 

[Wade Garrett]

My thinking is the Lakers need a solid tried and true coach right now. Not another project or even questionable option running the team.
Stotts might not last there but if he gets that job with LeBron and AD they will make the playoffs.

I agree.
If Terry is serious about it, he would be a great choice.
But, I don't know if he REALLY wants that job, or if he has his eyes on Utah.
Either way, he took a year off, is no doubt refreshed, and it would be cool to see him back running another team.
He's earned it.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

I agree.
If Terry is serious about it, he would be a great choice.
But, I don't know if he REALLY wants that job, or if he has his eyes on Utah.
Either way, he took a year off, is no doubt refreshed, and it would be cool to see him back running another team.
He's earned it.

Yeah that’s another thing. Taking a job with the Lakers is always a pressure pot if things don’t go really well. The Jazz job if it were to become available just seems like it’s more his speed. Problem with the Jazz right now is they are also in a bind players wise. Who knows how that team will look next year?

 

[julius]

But they are in making the playoffs

Hate to break it to you, you being a "Lakers fan", they're not content with losing in the first round.

 

[Ripcity4life77]

When i saw that Stotts interviewed with the Lakers just had a drink of water and almost spit it up all on my monitor / keyboard laughing but held it back but come on Lakers hire Stotts -- PLEASE

ROFL

 

[blazerkor]

What in the fuck is Terry going to do with the Lakers? He spent his entire time here telling his players to do what they do and do it the best they can... just letting the currents of the players' talent steer where the offense went and letting defense try and take care of itself. The Lakers have shown as clearly as possible that the way the players on that team have played in the past does not play together. So they need a coach that will dig deep and figure out a way to get Russ to stop being Russ or relegate him to being captain of the bench squad... that is not Terry Stotts. If they hire Terry it will be a replay of last season possibly without the injuries but very possibly with them. If they have the injuries they won't be making the playoffs and if they stay healthy they will be a 5-8 seed that could pull an upset in one round of the playoffs but will be had very soon after, if not before.

Terry is one of the worst coaches possible for the Lakers because he will just let them do what they do and try to help them along their journey but what they do is dysfunction.

 

[Predator]

My thinking is the Lakers need a solid tried and true coach right now. Not another project or even questionable option running the team.
Stotts might not last there but if he gets that job with LeBron and AD they will make the playoffs.

I actually agree with you that they would probably go with a tried and true coach. However, I don’t think they’d hire a coach before interviewing some of the “top” assistant options.

And as far as “questionable option” that’s exactly what Stotts is. Fan sentiment isn’t everything, but if you look at the responses to those tweets you’ll see that a vast, vast, vasttttt majority of them are “lulz wut”.

 

[Chris Craig]

What in the fuck is Terry going to do with the Lakers? He spent his entire time here telling his players to do what they do and do it the best they can... just letting the currents of the players' talent steer where the offense went and letting defense try and take care of itself. The Lakers have shown as clearly as possible that the way the players on that team have played in the past does not play together. So they need a coach that will dig deep and figure out a way to get Russ to stop being Russ or relegate him to being captain of the bench squad... that is not Terry Stotts. If they hire Terry it will be a replay of last season possibly without the injuries but very possibly with them. If they have the injuries they won't be making the playoffs and if they stay healthy they will be a 5-8 seed that could pull an upset in one round of the playoffs but will be had very soon after, if not before.

Terry is one of the worst coaches possible for the Lakers because he will just let them do what they do and try to help them along their journey but what they do is dysfunction.

Hey shhhh

Let them hire him.

 

[Predator]

Mike Brown to the Kings.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Mike Brown to the Kings.

Ha ha - fuck Mark Jackson. He's never getting another NBA job...

 

[KSF-ERIC]

What in the fuck is Terry going to do with the Lakers? He spent his entire time here telling his players to do what they do and do it the best they can... just letting the currents of the players' talent steer where the offense went and letting defense try and take care of itself. The Lakers have shown as clearly as possible that the way the players on that team have played in the past does not play together. So they need a coach that will dig deep and figure out a way to get Russ to stop being Russ or relegate him to being captain of the bench squad... that is not Terry Stotts. If they hire Terry it will be a replay of last season possibly without the injuries but very possibly with them. If they have the injuries they won't be making the playoffs and if they stay healthy they will be a 5-8 seed that could pull an upset in one round of the playoffs but will be had very soon after, if not before.

Terry is one of the worst coaches possible for the Lakers because he will just let them do what they do and try to help them along their journey but what they do is dysfunction.

Not sure why they'd want Russ leading the bench squad. He would still suck. And they ain't ever getting a 5 seed if he plays for them no matter if everyone's healthy. In my opinion.

 

[blazerkor]

Not sure why they'd want Russ leading the bench squad. He would still suck. And they ain't ever getting a 5 seed if he plays for them no matter if everyone's healthy. In my opinion.

It's just too damn early to know any of this shit because we have to see what plays out in the off season with us, any other teams that make big changes in the West from this last season to next. Then we have to see what the Pelicans look like with CJ and if Zion can get and stay healthy. You probably are right that the Lakers are not a team that stays out of the play ins if healthy. They're probably a 7-10... when I look at the rest of the conference. I do get this sick feeling like the Lakers are going to pull some real crazy shit off though but that's probably just me being paranoid but echoes of the Pau Gasol trade will do that.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

It's just too damn early to know any of this shit because we have to see what plays out in the off season with us, any other teams that make big changes in the West from this last season to next. Then we have to see what the Pelicans look like with CJ and if Zion can get and stay healthy. You probably are right that the Lakers are not a team that stays out of the play ins if healthy. They're probably a 7-10... when I look at the rest of the conference. I do get this sick feeling like the Lakers are going to pull some real crazy shit off though but that's probably just me being paranoid but echoes of the Pau Gasol trade will do that.

Historically, the Gasol/Gasol trade was great for both team. If it weren't for the two championships the Lakers won, I'd say Memphis won the trade. Marc Gasol was their star for more years than Pau was in LA.

 

[Shaboid]

Looking like Jokic is getting MVP for the second season in a row...