Athesim radicals and Theist Radicals

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magnifier661

magnifier661

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Lets just have its own thread regarding this topic. I felt bad that GOD's thread got hijacked.

So let's look at the radical theists:
Off the top of my head - Jim Jones, Radical Militant Muslim groups like the Al-Qaeda, The KKK, Catholic Church (900-1800 A.D.), Assortment of crazy Christians, Hindu radicals, and Mussolini.

So let's look at the radical Atheists:
Off the top of my head - Communism (Russia, Cuba, China, Laos, ALbania, Cambodia).
 
Suicide bomber says, "praise Allah" and then blows up his bomb.

The holy land is overrun with infidels. We need crusades to get rid of them and take back the land. That's not even "radical" theists.

Radical atheist says, "praise atheism" and then blows up his bomb? LOL. Not quite.
 
Denny Crane said:
Suicide bomber says, "praise Allah" and then blows up his bomb.

The holy land is overrun with infidels. We need crusades to get rid of them and take back the land. That's not even "radical" theists.

Radical atheist says, "praise atheism" and then blows up his bomb? LOL. Not quite.
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Don't know where you are getting at with this comment. Are you saying that there isn't radical atheists?
 
magnifier661 said:
Don't know where you are getting at with this comment. Are you saying that there isn't radical atheists?
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I can't think of any atheists who justify their behavior because of atheism. Repressive regimes (USSR, North Korea) may be atheistic, but it's kind of a side consequence. They want ALL the power, and aren't willing to cede any of it to priests or churches. So it makes perfect sense for them to have an official party line of atheism.

I don't think Stalin ever said, "You will go to the gulag because of atheism!" He mostly said, "You will go to the gulag because fuck you I say so."
 
Denny Crane said:
Not any who have killed in the name of atheism.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism_and_religion

You sure about that?

Religion in the People's Republic of China

The People's Republic of China was established in 1949 and for much of its early history maintained a hostile attitude toward religion which was seen as emblematic of feudalism and foreign colonialism. Houses of worship, including temples, mosques, and churches, were converted into non-religious buildings for secular use.
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Religion in the Soviet Union
The Soviet Union was an atheist state,[7][8][9] in which religion was largely discouraged and heavily persecuted.[10]
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http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/anti.html

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/ae2bkhun.html
 
mook said:
I can't think of any atheists who justify their behavior because of atheism. Repressive regimes (USSR, North Korea) may be atheistic, but it's kind of a side consequence. They want ALL the power, and aren't willing to cede any of it to priests or churches. So it makes perfect sense for them to have an official party line of atheism.

I don't think Stalin ever said, "You will go to the gulag because of atheism!" He mostly said, "You will go to the gulag because fuck you I say so."
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You should read the translated letter of the Soviet Union and religion.

Therefore, I come to the indisputable conclusion that we
must precisely now smash the Black Hundreds clergy most
decisively and ruthlessly and put down all resistance with such
brutality that they will not forget it for several decades.
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and

Send to Shuia one of the most energetic, clear-headed, and
capable members of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee
[VTsIK] or some other representative of the central government
(one is better than several), giving him verbal instructions through
one of the members of the Politburo. The instructions must come
down to this, that in Shuia he must arrest more if possible but not
less than several dozen representatives of the local clergy, the local
petty bourgeoisie, and the local bourgeoisie on suspicion of direct
or indirect participation in the forcible resistance to the decree of
the VTsIK on the removal of property of value from churches.
Immediately upon completion of this task, he must return to
Moscow and personally deliver a report to the full session of the
Politburo or to two specially authorized members of the Politburo.
On the basis of this report, the Politburo will give a detailed
directive to the judicial authorities, also verbal, that the trial of the
insurrectionists from Shuia, for opposing aid to the starving, should
be carried out in utmost haste and should end not other than with
the shooting of the very largest number of the most influential and
dangerous of the Black Hundreds in Shuia, and, if possible, not
only in this city but even in Moscow and several other ecclesiastical
centers.
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The problem with Marxism, is the "state must be atheistic". So even though they may not claim it's in the name of Atheism; it truly is "In the name of atheism" because "Atheism is needed for a communistic society to function properly.
 
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[video=youtube;TRhczvtmbWE]
 
speeds said:
[video=youtube;TRhczvtmbWE]
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Hitchens is a brilliant man; but his interpretation of the communist regime was a dodge. During this time, the atheists were aggressively debating theists; using the atrocities of theists as a main reason why one should throw away the theistic views. The instant response was that of the Communist movement. The societies that must be backed by an atheistic view in order to stick.

WHAT should have happened was these atheists used other means of debates at the early stages so they didn't have to dig out of the hole they put themselves into. There was plenty to argue about back then and now; without trying to say only theists are ones that force feed their views on society and murder in the name of their faith.
 
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I posted this in the other thread before i saw this one, so it refers to quotes in Mags selected in the "Islam" thread.

"Mags, my view may differ from other atheists here, but I do agree with you that Hitler and Stalin certainly used science not only to develop the methods of killing, but also as reasons for killing. It was bad science that would never have survived the peer review process, but they did use science, especially in eugenics. I am not as as convinced that their atheistic views were at fault for any of their terrible actions. They were control hungry and resented RELIGION and the power that religion held over the people. Even in one of the quotes that you put up it mentions that they were not at odds with a god but with organized religion. This does not speak to atheism, it speaks to power hungry people wanting to be the one true source of information. You can find countless examples of this in history from the point of view of specific religions also, but in their case they just say all other religions, instead of all religions.

People have to take responsibility for themselves and cultivate their own, and their communities own sense of innate personal ethics. Religion has bastardized ethics and non-religious have bastardized ethics. That's why it's imperative to not base your morals or ethics on a group doctrine, but upon something more difficult to define, what's inherently good or bad. I choose not to steal not because I would end up in hell or because some organization says I should not steal, but because, through good parenting and ethical people around me, I have grown up empathetic to how it feels to have something stolen, and I would not want to cause that type of distress. The more we move away from religion the more people need to have their own sense of purpose and morals."
 
[video=youtube;GmDQdlmr3IU]
 
GOD said:
I posted this in the other thread before i saw this one, so it refers to quotes in Mags selected in the "Islam" thread.

"Mags, my view may differ from other atheists here, but I do agree with you that Hitler and Stalin certainly used science not only to develop the methods of killing, but also as reasons for killing. It was bad science that would never have survived the peer review process, but they did use science, especially in eugenics. I am not as as convinced that their atheistic views were at fault for any of their terrible actions. They were control hungry and resented RELIGION and the power that religion held over the people. Even in one of the quotes that you put up it mentions that they were not at odds with a god but with organized religion. This does not speak to atheism, it speaks to power hungry people wanting to be the one true source of information. You can find countless examples of this in history from the point of view of specific religions also, but in their case they just say all other religions, instead of all religions.

People have to take responsibility for themselves and cultivate their own, and their communities own sense of innate personal ethics. Religion has bastardized ethics and non-religious have bastardized ethics. That's why it's imperative to not base your morals or ethics on a group doctrine, but upon something more difficult to define, what's inherently good or bad. I choose not to steal not because I would end up in hell or because some organization says I should not steal, but because, through good parenting and ethical people around me, I have grown up empathetic to how it feels to have something stolen, and I would not want to cause that type of distress. The more we move away from religion the more people need to have their own sense of purpose and morals."
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I posted a response and I did rep you for this post. Good job!
 
[video=youtube;GlXGaIVoofM]
 
speeds said:
[video=youtube;GmDQdlmr3IU]
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Sam Harris openly admits that the communist movement was atrocities spear headed by an atheist regime. What he is tackling is that "This is not the END ALL for atheism". I agree with that. He is just suggesting that atheism doesn't have to end like this and that this atrocity will be something all atheists will face as long as they are atheists. I 100% agree with it.

I also agree that he urges atheists not to take the atrocities approach to argue against theism. Even if you believe in evolution, you should be open to this behavior. It is an inherited behavior to stick it to the non-believer. Wars have been made because of disagreements. This is human nature.
 
speeds said:
[video=youtube;GlXGaIVoofM]
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Exactly! Do you see the commonality of all the videos you posted? They all agree that all were atheists; but that it doesn't mean that an atheist all would act in this way.

EDIT: I never brought up Hitler btw... I agree that he wasn't really an atheist. His ethnic cleansing was adopted by the evolution approach; but there are many theists that believe in evolution too.
 
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Mags response in a different thread to my post #12 in this thread:
magnifier661 said:
Well spoken and repp'd. There are the people that don't understand the true motives of the theist approach. This is why I adopted Christianity for myself. It's not because I feel I need to keep the commandments; just the foundation of the belief is based on compassion and forgiveness. I think if the world actually was able to forgive much easier, the world would be a much better place.

In my Christian walk, I choose not to steal, not because I am afraid of what God would do to me. I choose not to steal because I don't want to make my parent disappointed. We all make mistakes and I think forgiveness is the ultimate gift that all man-kind should practice.
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Mags, if you believe in compassion and forgiveness as the main tenants as to why you chose Christianity, I would offer the notion that you would be welcomed to display those noble characteristics as an atheist, but you would not be supporting an organization that that also decrees that anyone who does not believe the same will burn in hell.

just curious, what branch of Christianity are you?


I have another question for you that you may not want to answer here and if so, I totally understand, I will drop this line of questioning. But if you are willing, What is your churches view of your daughter being gay? How does your daughter view religion/god?
 
From the Dawkins video posted: "Individual atheists may do evil things, but they don't do evil things in the name of atheism. Stalin and Hilter did extremely evil things, in the name of, respectively: dogmatic and doctrinaire Marxism, and an insane and unscientific eugenics theory tinged with sub-Wagnerian ravings. Religious wars really are fought in the name of religion and they've been horribly frequent in history. I cannot think of any war that has been fought in the name of atheism--why should it?"

So the term "radical atheist" might as well be "radical suit-wearer" or "radical nose-haver". Which isn't to say the religious people are always motivated by their religion (frequently by greed and lust).
 
speeds said:
From the Dawkins video posted: "Individual atheists may do evil things, but they don't do evil things in the name of atheism. Stalin and Hilter did extremely evil things, in the name of, respectively: dogmatic and doctrinaire Marxism, and an insane and unscientific eugenics theory tinged with sub-Wagnerian ravings. Religious wars really are fought in the name of religion and they've been horribly frequent in history. I cannot think of any war that has been fought in the name of atheism--why should it?"

So the term "radical atheist" might as well be "radical suit-wearer" or "radical nose-haver". Which isn't to say the religious people are always motivated by their religion (frequently by greed and lust).
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Russia

Mother Russia (Russian: Россия-Матушка, transliterated as Rossiya-Matushka) is a national personification of Russia, appearing in patriotic posters, statues etc. The usage of the term "mother" in reference to a nation or culture symbolizes the "spirit of collectivity".
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AS much as the great Dawkins has a great point; the term "Mother Russia" is the collective bound by equality without God (separation). SO when the tank driver blows up a building and screams "For mother Russia!"; that is maintained for the belief in the soviet movement. The movement that no man or God is greater than the other.

Also, why does it matter that atheism has evil people doing evil things? Theists have them as well. I think that so many people in the belief get sooooooo pissed and offended that their belief was shared by evil deeds. Every belief can be exploited by evil people.

When a man "believes strongly" about a certain ideal; that can be exploited. Just as we are Blazer fans, we take offense when one talks shit about our players. Maybe they speak truth, but the offense is on the team as a whole. Instead we want no shit talk to our belief because that would devalue the belief.
 
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magnifier661 said:
Sam Harris openly admits that the communist movement was atrocities spear headed by an atheist regime. What he is tackling is that "This is not the END ALL for atheism". I agree with that. He is just suggesting that atheism doesn't have to end like this and that this atrocity will be something all atheists will face as long as they are atheists. I 100% agree with it.

I also agree that he urges atheists not to take the atrocities approach to argue against theism. Even if you believe in evolution, you should be open to this behavior. It is an inherited behavior to stick it to the non-believer. Wars have been made because of disagreements. This is human nature.
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He doesn't deny that Stalin was an atheist but he does not follow your line that Stalin was motivated by atheism nor was his regime, but rather communism which he calls "a political religion." I suppose if Denny is allowed to argue that not having a religion is a religion (derp) than the idea of a political religion, using the same machinations and ingrained mass trust that a religious regime would be keen to exploit, is more logical than that. Dunno if I agree with either.
 
97jvo2.jpg
 
speeds said:
He doesn't deny that Stalin was an atheist but he does not follow your line that Stalin was motivated by atheism nor was his regime, but rather communism which he calls "a political religion." I suppose if Denny is allowed to argue that not having a religion is a religion (derp) than the idea of a political religion, using the same machinations and ingrained mass trust that a religious regime would be keen to exploit, is more logical than that. Dunno if I agree with either.
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But I am gonna repeat the actual "political agenda" of communism. In order for communism to survive; it must renounce a belief in God. It isn't an atheism "view"; but atheism is used in their view; if you know what I mean.

So when a communist destroys churches, kills monks or murders Jews; they are doing it to strengthen communism; which relies on atheism.
 
So anyway; this thread isn't about atheism only. Let's talk shit about radical theists.

Jones town is of my age. That fucking dickhead murdered so many innocent kids, adults and was too chickenshit to drink of the koolaide.
 
Now you're making my point for me--to strengthen communism, in the name of communism. Not in the name of atheism. There's the stretch. If atheism is an intrinsic aspect of communism it's still not the motivation (consolidation of power).
 
magnifier661 said:
But I am gonna repeat the actual "political agenda" of communism. In order for communism to survive; it must renounce a belief in God. It isn't an atheism "view"; but atheism is used in their view; if you know what I mean.

So when a communist destroys churches, kills monks or murders Jews; they are doing it to strengthen communism; which relies on atheism.
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Communism does not rely on atheism.
 
Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, David Koresh, Joseph Smith, Shoko Asahara, Marshall Applewhite--how do you get people to do what you want them to do if you can't force them physically or lavish them? Tell them they'll be rewarded in an afterlife. Religious charlatans preying on faith and naïveté as they have since they invented religion.
 
speeds said:
Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, David Koresh, Joseph Smith, Shoko Asahara, Marshall Applewhite--how do you get people to do what you want them to do if you can't force them physically or lavish them? Tell them they'll be rewarded in an afterlife. Religious charlatans preying on faith and naïveté as they have since they invented religion.
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I was talking with a friend about this very thing and he said to look at religion as a bank that never actually has to pay it's debt. The individual deposits faith, money and obedience expecting a payout in the afterlife. It's a great deal for religion. Imagine if they had to pay back, here's your 72 virgins in advance, now go commit a suicide bombing. No way, I'm staying here with my honeys. The church would be bankrupt of virgins, gold within a week. lol, just a funny perspective I hadn't contemplated.
 
speeds said:
Jim Jones, Sun Myung Moon, David Koresh, Joseph Smith, Shoko Asahara, Marshall Applewhite--how do you get people to do what you want them to do if you can't force them physically or lavish them? Tell them they'll be rewarded in an afterlife. Religious charlatans preying on faith and naïveté as they have since they invented religion.
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Absolutely! But then wouldn't that apply to atheistic societies like Soviet Union and republic of china? How were they able to have billions do their bidding.

You seemed to apply it only to theism. It works both ways; hence the thread title. When you have a group of people buying in to the ideology like communism.
 
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