August 1st 2012: just like Pearl Harbor and 9/11

[TradeNurkicNow]

Yesterday was the day that women were allowed to begin using their health care services on contraceptives and preventative care. Or, according to Mike Kelly, an attack on America on par with Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

"I know in your mind you can think of times when America was attacked. One is December 7th, that's Pearl Harbor day. The other is September 11th, and that's the day of the terrorist attack," Kelly said at a press conference on Capitol Hill. "I want you to remember August the 1st, 2012, the attack on our religious freedom. That is a day that will live in infamy, along with those other dates."

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/...ontraceptive-mandate-to-pearl-harbor-911?lite

 

[Haakzilla]

...population control

 

[Mediocre Man]

And yet my wife can't get lasik because insurance doesn't cover it

 

[crandc]

Yep, not only birth control, but domestic violence counseling! What kind of country doesn't allow men to beat up women? Obviously, this is the end of civilization as we knew it ... in the 13th century.

 

[Eastoff]

"We don't want anyone to have abortions. We also don't want anyone to cover you for contraception. So you high school kids... just don't have sex." Because that works really well!

 

[Denny Crane]

I was watching MSNBC this morning, as usual. The spin they put on ObamaCare is just amazing. There's already a shortage of doctors and the problem will be exacerbated by tens of millions of people going to the doctors for their hangnails, since it's "free."

Their answer/spin? We have to change the way we deliver health care. Instead of seeing a doctor, you should see a nurse practitioner. I'm not seeing how seeing a much lesser qualified person for your care is a good thing, or an improvement.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Yep, not only birth control, but domestic violence counseling! What kind of country doesn't allow men to beat up women? Obviously, this is the end of civilization as we knew it ... in the 13th century.

While I am a firm believer in abstinence in younger kids, I also believe in free contraceptives and free domestic abuse counseling.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

I was watching MSNBC this morning, as usual. The spin they put on ObamaCare is just amazing. There's already a shortage of doctors and the problem will be exacerbated by tens of millions of people going to the doctors for their hangnails, since it's "free."

This is the most often claimed "flaw" with universal health care. Show me proof that health care professionals in countries like Canada and Great Britain are "overwhelmed" by people with insignificant health care issues.

 

[Denny Crane]

This is the most often claimed "flaw" with universal health care. Show me proof that health care professionals in countries like Canada and Great Britain are "overwhelmed" by people with insignificant health care issues.

http://thehill.com/business-a-lobby...-to-overwhelm-already-crammed-emergency-rooms
http://www.ktvb.com/news/health/Free-health-care-program-overwhelmed-with-demand-140587013.html
http://www.healthyamericans.org/newsroom/news/?newsid=1724

 

[Natebishop3]

This is the most often claimed "flaw" with universal health care. Show me proof that health care professionals in countries like Canada and Great Britain are "overwhelmed" by people with insignificant health care issues.

If you talk to someone from Canada or Britain, they'll tell you examples. I talked to someone who was born in London and they said there was a six month wait to see a dentist.

 

[MARIS61]

If you talk to someone from Canada or Britain, they'll tell you examples. I talked to someone who was born in London and they said there was a six month wait to see a dentist.

As far as Canada is concerned, this is a myth.

I have many Canadian relatives and they have all received far better care than any of my American relatives. I have asked them about the supposed waiting list story and they say it's pure fabrication.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

As far as Canada is concerned, this is a myth.

I have many Canadian relatives and they have all received far better care than any of my American relatives. I have asked them about the supposed waiting list story and they say it's pure fabrication.

And I have two good friends who tell me the opposite. They have some of their care done in the USA.

 

[MARIS61]

There's already a shortage of doctors and the problem will be exacerbated by tens of millions of people going to the doctors for their hangnails, since it's "free."

[video=youtube;ySXiTknN-g0]

http://tech.mit.edu/V117/N33/glut.33w.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...rvice-poised-for-glut-of-doctors-ft-says.html

http://www.cp24.com/canada-heading-for-a-glut-of-doctors-study-1.741540

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7aba53de-7a72-11e1-9c77-00144feab49a.html#axzz22RfxPBQF

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9177635/Glut-of-NHS-doctors-by-2020-report-warns.html

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^ Do you read your own links?

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/opinion/a-doctor-shortage-and-the-health-law.html
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/29/health/doctor-shortage-affordable-care-act/index.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304506904575180331528424238.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...es-growing/2012/02/10/gIQAPkZM4Q_graphic.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...-as-teaching-hospitals-fight-for-funding.html

 

[crandc]

Denny

First, you are changing the subject. The topic was whether women getting birth control et al is the equivalent of Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

Second, people aren't getting treated for hangnails for nothing. Don't make shit up.

Third, if more people having access to health care means there are not enough doctors to go around, what about training nurse practitioners or physicians assistants for the routine stuff, which they are more than capable of? I guess if only the 1% had access to health care there would be plenty of docs to go around. How terrible that more people get health care! Is that your point?

And do you consider access to birth control, cancer screening, domestic violence counseling to be the equivalent of Pearl Harbor and 9/11?

 

[Natebishop3]

Denny

First, you are changing the subject. The topic was whether women getting birth control et al is the equivalent of Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

Second, people aren't getting treated for hangnails for nothing. Don't make shit up.

Third, if more people having access to health care means there are not enough doctors to go around, what about training nurse practitioners or physicians assistants for the routine stuff, which they are more than capable of? I guess if only the 1% had access to health care there would be plenty of docs to go around. How terrible that more people get health care! Is that your point?

And do you consider access to birth control, cancer screening, domestic violence counseling to be the equivalent of Pearl Harbor and 9/11?

The conversation evolved... did you want us to all simply post that Mike Kelly is a moron? That would be a pretty boring thread.

Mike Kelly is a moron.

There ya go

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny

First, you are changing the subject. The topic was whether women getting birth control et al is the equivalent of Pearl Harbor and 9/11.

Second, people aren't getting treated for hangnails for nothing. Don't make shit up.

Third, if more people having access to health care means there are not enough doctors to go around, what about training nurse practitioners or physicians assistants for the routine stuff, which they are more than capable of? I guess if only the 1% had access to health care there would be plenty of docs to go around. How terrible that more people get health care! Is that your point?

And do you consider access to birth control, cancer screening, domestic violence counseling to be the equivalent of Pearl Harbor and 9/11?

First, the subject is ObamaCare is like Pearl Harbor. I pointed out that the real Pearl Harbor aspect of it is the shortage of doctors.

Second, you missed the point. When people have "free" access to health care, they will use it for less than routine stuff.

Third, I made the point that seeing a nurse practitioner is a step down from seeing a doctor. No matter how you spin it, you're seeing someone less qualified than an actual doctor.

I don't consider access to birth control, etc., to be the equivalent of Pearl Harbor. I do consider throwing 40M new people at the health care system to be a rather huge time bomb.

 

[ppilot]

Second, you missed the point. When people have "free" access to health care, they will use it for less than routine stuff.

And this is different from people that get work provided health care? You talk to almost any economist and one of the first things they bring up is how the average American has too much health care coverage which results in a large number American's having medical procedures that provide almost no marginal benefit. And guess what this does....drives up health costs.

Planet Money on NPR did a show on how Oregon implemented additional health care coverage which allowed one of the few opportunities to do studies on the behavioral changes when a group of people that suddenly have access to health insurance and they found that there was no mad rush to get everything taken care of. Personally I don't think the health care bill was needed, but i find certain arguments against it slightly ridiculous.

 

[Denny Crane]

And this is different from people that get work provided health care? You talk to almost any economist and one of the first things they bring up is how the average American has too much health care coverage which results in a large number American's having medical procedures that provide almost no marginal benefit. And guess what this does....drives up health costs.

Planet Money on NPR did a show on how Oregon implemented additional health care coverage which allowed one of the few opportunities to do studies on the behavioral changes when a group of people that suddenly have access to health insurance and they found that there was no mad rush to get everything taken care of. Personally I don't think the health care bill was needed, but i find certain arguments against it slightly ridiculous.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle states that if you have 10% more people accessing health care with the same number of doctors (or fewer), the system will be overloaded. You don't have to know which of those extra 10% are accessing the system at any one time, but they all will at some point.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Third, I made the point that seeing a nurse practitioner is a step down from seeing a doctor. No matter how you spin it, you're seeing someone less qualified than an actual doctor.

I don't agree with this. If we're talking about routine, minor issues, a nurse practitioner isn't necessarily less qualified than a doctor. Qualified to handle more things =/= more qualified to handle all things.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't agree with this. If we're talking about routine, minor issues, a nurse practitioner isn't necessarily less qualified than a doctor. Qualified to handle more things =/= more qualified to handle all things.

We get to see doctors now. Anything less is lesser quality service.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

We get to see doctors now. Anything less is lesser quality service.

Well, that's your opinion. Cherish it.

 

[Denny Crane]

Well, that's your opinion. Cherish it.

Not only is it true, but service is going to be rationed.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypi...-supporters-dont-support-the-rationing-board/

 

[Ed O]

Their answer/spin? We have to change the way we deliver health care. Instead of seeing a doctor, you should see a nurse practitioner. I'm not seeing how seeing a much lesser qualified person for your care is a good thing, or an improvement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron

Ed O.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Okay, so let me see if I have the gist: we will have a glut of people abusing the system by seeing doctors for insignificant hangnail type injuries and ailments. Also, simultaneously, we are dissatisfied with less-qualified nurse practitioners taking care of these issues because we used to be able to see a doctor for them.

So really, we want to keep healthcare privatized so that, when we abuse the system by seeing doctors for hangnails, we don't have to stand in line.

Does that sound right? Am I getting it?

 

[Ed O]

Okay, so let me see if I have the gist: we will have a glut of people abusing the system by seeing doctors for insignificant hangnail type injuries and ailments. Also, simultaneously, we are dissatisfied with less-qualified nurse practitioners taking care of these issues because we used to be able to see a doctor for them.

So really, we want to keep healthcare privatized so that, when we abuse the system by seeing doctors for hangnails, we don't have to stand in line.

Does that sound right? Am I getting it?

Not at all. At least not in my opinion.

If the quality of health care is sacrificed for the quantity of users (and the expectation that every malady should be treated for free by a professional will lead to such a sacrifice) then it drags down the quality of health care for those of us who currently have it.

If someone wants to be seen for a hangnail currently, then they can be--even by a doctor. It will cost them to do so, which prevents the demand for hangnail care from becoming too high.

Ed O.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Not at all. At least not in my opinion.

If the quality of health care is sacrificed for the quantity of users (and the expectation that every malady should be treated for free by a professional will lead to such a sacrifice) then it drags down the quality of health care for those of us who currently have it.

If someone wants to be seen for a hangnail currently, then they can be--even by a doctor. It will cost them to do so, which prevents the demand for hangnail care from becoming too high.

Ed O.

Likewise, if the system adjusts such that hangnail-level maladies are seen by nurse practitioners instead of doctors (the whole Zoomcare paradigm), then demand for hangnail care can remain constant (or go up) without stressing the doctors more.

It's really too bad every economy is crumbling to dust; I like me some safety nets.

 

[Ed O]

Likewise, if the system adjusts such that hangnail-level maladies are seen by nurse practitioners instead of doctors (the whole Zoomcare paradigm), then demand for hangnail care can remain constant (or go up) without stressing the doctors more.

I don't understand where the money is going to come from to pay the NPs for their work. I would think that it would come at the expense of hiring more doctors, while the demand for non-hangnail doctor care would at least hold steady.

Ed O.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

I don't understand where the money is going to come from to pay the NPs for their work. I would think that it would come at the expense of hiring more doctors, while the demand for non-hangnail doctor care would at least hold steady.

Ed O.

I'd love to raise taxes on the rich and well-off (Top 80%) to pay for all these nice things, but the rich act like it's 9/11 when it comes up.

(I would be affected, so it's not like it'd be happening to someone else)