Back from the game -- stunned by Oden

[DaRizzle]

I think one of the main reasons Bynum has flourished is that he has been getting one on one coaching from the captain, Kareem.

That's what Greg needs - I agree we should hire Hakeem, or Ewing, or some other major center to tutor the kid.

What say you, DaRizzle?

I guess it cant hurt...Footwork and the goals for a C is different than other positions so getting a specific coach cant hurt. Kareem is in by no means the main coach for Bynum....honestly it would probably be Kurt Rambis since Phil made Kurt our "defensive coordinator".

 

[The Sebastian Express]

No, you're wrong! Greg's a bust, he's the next Kwame Brown, Micheal Olowokandi, and Sam Bowie all rolled into one, he's got no fire, he doesn't chest bump during introductions, he doesn't sprint up and down the floor like a gazelle, he's not dominating the league like the next Bill Russell would, he's terrible, he doesn't smile enough, he kicked my dog, he doesn't want to win, he's too nervous, too uncoordinated. He's only had a lousy five double-doubles in 13 games. He sucks, we suck, we're never going to go anywhere with him, let's trade the bum.

Did I miss anything?

He shot JR.

 

[Masbee]

I have been slamming Shooter's thoughts in some other posts, so you know I would if I felt he was wrong, but I don't see him claiming Oden is a bust or can't play.

Essentially all he said is Oden looks disinterested and lethargic and is slow and not very active - in the game he went to.

I find little to argue with that.

How Oden looks is hard to read. Who knows what that is, so let's leave it alone.

And what do Oden's season stats matter when the comments are just about one game.

With Oden playing limited minutes, that shouldn't be an excuse for his performance.

To my eyes, Oden was slow getting up and down the court, slow rotating, couldn't finish at the rim, and after the two blown dunks, only looked to pass the ball.

Watching him there was a stange vibe about it. Like he would rather be someplace else.

All in all - I agree it was a terrible performance. After having some real solid games it was jarring. And not like he looked like he was into the game and trying hard, but just missed shots and got called for some tough fouls. That would be different. That is a tough game. This was just wierd.

Question is why? After having some real solid games, what happened? Shooter wonders about depression. Weight of expectations? Experiencing pain? Night out on the town?

Again - it is just one game we are talking about. Don't get all excited. I know it doesn't define the season. Still, odd game for Oden. I sure hope I don't see many more of these.

Masbee didn't approve. Thank god for Joel.

 

[andalusian]

To my eyes, Oden was slow getting up and down the court, slow rotating, couldn't finish at the rim, and after the two blown dunks, only looked to pass the ball.

Oh, I do not know about it. I saw him rolling to the basket with his hand up multiple times - he only got the ball down low once and scored.

All the other times they sent the ball to him was when he out of the box, stationary with a couple of people on him - good thing he did not try to force it there.

 

[BrianFromWA]

No, you're wrong! Greg's a bust, he's the next Kwame Brown, Micheal Olowokandi, and Sam Bowie all rolled into one, he's got no fire, he doesn't chest bump during introductions, he doesn't sprint up and down the floor like a gazelle, he's not dominating the league like the next Bill Russell would, he's terrible, he doesn't smile enough, he kicked my dog, he doesn't want to win, he's too nervous, too uncoordinated. He's only had a lousy five double-doubles in 13 games. He sucks, we suck, we're never going to go anywhere with him, let's trade the bum.

Did I miss anything?

You forgot "I wish we could trade him, but we couldn't get Marbury for him right now!"

 

[BlazerCaravan]

I've been wondering if Oden's lack of aggressiveness has been maybe exacerbated by the fact that Mo Lucas hasn't been around. He is our big man coach, after all.

 

[Masbee]

Oh, I do not know about it. I saw him rolling to the basket with his hand up multiple times - he only got the ball down low once and scored.

All the other times they sent the ball to him was when he out of the box, stationary with a couple of people on him - good thing he did not try to force it there.

Maybe. I didn't and am not going to do a play-by-play analysis. It just looked and felt "bad".

He did play his fewest minutes in the last 4 games despite lack of foul trouble.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I've been wondering if Oden is hurting and not wanting to say so because of the shitstorm that would fall on him if he sat out any more games.

I've also been thinking that he moves more like Patrick Ewing than David Robinson/Olajuwon/Shaq. And while that might be a little disappointing, it's certainly not the end of the world:

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[The_Lillard_King]

Based on Oden's size alone, he is going to help the team . . . but he hasn't come close to living up to the hype.

Could he live up to the hype? Of course. But the argument that we shouldn't even be talking about it and give it time before evaluating goes against what this board is all about. This board does game threads, predicts the score of each game, predicts overall records, predicts potential trades, why shouldn't we start predicting what kind of player Oden will be?

For me (and I said it after his first game back) Oden doesn't look right. The way he plods around the court, his demeanor, his corrdination . . . I'm with shooter on wondering if he is going through depression or bi-polar or what, becuase sometimes Oden looks into the game and other times he looks completly disinterested. Oden doesn't look happy, doesn't look like he is enjoying the game and to me is turning into a mind blow.

 

[Drink Your Milkshake]

I'm not worried about Oden's demeanor. He's just a soft natured homosexual and comes off weird to straight men who don't understand. Microfracture surgery is a serious injury that takes two seasons before a player is 100% again. Oden didn't help this by getting fat. By the second half of the season Oden should be in much better shape.

 

[hasoos]

I am an Oden believer, he controls the middle, and he gets rebounds even when he is having a bad game. Go back and watch some footage, and you will see over the games that Greg has been playing, that players are afraid to go inside, players get boxed out and can't get rebounds over him, and he still averages a significant amount of blocks per game, and even more shots changed.

Secondly most everybody who has paid attention to NBA players who have got Microfracture surgery knows they don't really get their explosiveness back until the 2nd year after the surgery. You go out and compare him to Lebron, but Lebron didn't have F'n knee surgery did he?

What the fuck is it? Have you wallowed in failure so long, that when the Blazers have success, you still have to find something to complain about?

I expect Greg to slowly move along, getting his wind and athletic ability back, and by end of year, have improved to the point where he is a factor on offense and defense by end of year.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Based on Oden's size alone, he is going to help the team . . . but he hasn't come close to living up to the hype.

Could he live up to the hype? Of course. But the argument that we shouldn't even be talking about it and give it time before evaluating goes against what this board is all about. This board does game threads, predicts the score of each game, predicts overall records, predicts potential trades, why shouldn't we start predicting what kind of player Oden will be?

For me (and I said it after his first game back) Oden doesn't look right. The way he plods around the court, his demeanor, his corrdination . . . I'm with shooter on wondering if he is going through depression or bi-polar or what, becuase sometimes Oden looks into the game and other times he looks completly disinterested. Oden doesn't look happy, doesn't look like he is enjoying the game and to me is turning into a mind blow.

I think a lot of people were thinking Dwight Howard rookie numbers because most of could see he wasn't an extremely pollished offensive player in college.

After a year off with microfracture surgery Oden is averaging better numbers than Howard per minute. Has a higher PER number than Howard did as a rookie, and is basically at 3/4 strength right now on a team with more talant than Howard had as a rookie, which means less opportunities.


If you look at the players that returned from the surgery, most all of them, took some games to get going. These are players that had actually played in the NBA mind you as well.

Oden per minute is putting up virtually the same or better rookie numbers than Bynum, Howard, Amare, Yao and KG did as rookies. AND HE SAT OUT A YEAR

 

[ehizzy3]

I'm not worried about Oden's demeanor. He's just a soft natured homosexual and comes off weird to straight men who don't understand. Microfracture surgery is a serious injury that takes two seasons before a player is 100% again. Oden didn't help this by getting fat. By the second half of the season Oden should be in much better shape.

????????????????????????????

 

[Shooter]

What the fuck is it? Have you wallowed in failure so long, that when the Blazers have success, you still have to find something to complain about?

When the #1 pick in the draft is playing so far below expectations that it's stunning, people are going to talk about it. Doesn't matter what the team's record is. Besides, what we're talking about here is the long-term future of this team--not just this year's record. Every Blazer fan knows that Oden is potentially the key to several championships, and we are curious about his health, his happiness, and (most important) his "game."

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I think a lot of people were thinking Dwight Howard rookie numbers because most of could see he wasn't an extremely pollished offensive player in college.

After a year off with microfracture surgery Oden is averaging better numbers than Howard per minute. Has a higher PER number than Howard did as a rookie, and is basically at 3/4 strength right now on a team with more talant than Howard had as a rookie, which means less opportunities.


If you look at the players that returned from the surgery, most all of them, took some games to get going. These are players that had actually played in the NBA mind you as well.

Oden per minute is putting up virtually the same or better rookie numbers than Bynum, Howard, Amare, Yao and KG did as rookies. AND HE SAT OUT A YEAR

So do you think everything is on track with Oden . . . as far as turning into a franchise player? Observing his demeanor, his play on the court, his interviews . . . is there any cause for concern?

About the PERS . . . if I played on the Blazer team this year . . . my PERS wouyld be higher than Howard's rookie year.

The reason Oden isn't getting a lot of minutes is because Nate wants to win the game. Oden would get more minutes (like 30 against Detroit) if he was helping on the court. I know your thoughts about Joel . . . and to think Joel is talking minutes away from Oden . . .

Anyways, I can't wait to see this quickness and agility I heard so much about when Blazers drafted him.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Question: how many games does it take to get into game shape?

Oden was apparently in good condition and worked very hard on staying in shape, but we all agree that is different than game shape. But how long of a transition from being in shape to being in game shape?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

When the #1 pick in the draft is playing so far below expectations that it's stunning, people are going to talk about it. Doesn't matter what the team's record is. Besides, what we're talking about here is the long-term future of this team--not just this year's record. Every Blazer fan knows that Oden is potentially the key to several championships, and we are curious about his health, his happiness, and (most important) his "game."

Hey shooter, we are finally on the same side of an argument . . . possible you might now believe in Obama too?

 

[graybeard]

I'm not worried about Oden's demeanor. He's just a soft natured homosexual and comes off weird to straight men who don't understand. Microfracture surgery is a serious injury that takes two seasons before a player is 100% again. Oden didn't help this by getting fat. By the second half of the season Oden should be in much better shape.

Do you have some proof of this or are you just looking for attention?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I do like this quote from Oden:

"Didn't do too well," he said quietly, after his two-point, seven-rebound performance. "But we won. That's all that matters. I'm still developing. Still learning."

 

[Minstrel]

Question: how many games does it take to get into game shape?

Oden was apparently in good condition and worked very hard on staying in shape, but we all agree that is different than game shape. But how long of a transition from being in shape to being in game shape?

It's taken about a year for most recent NBA players who underwent MF surgery.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Check out this intense analysis on Oden's productivity after MF surgery:


Graphing the time between when the procedure was performed and when the player first returns to an NBA game shows a clear and positive relationship. While the correlation is far from perfect, the trendline shows that on average players lose about 1% less of their pre-microfracture productivity for every extra month spent rehabbing.

This is great news for Oden and the Blazers, who were very conservative following his surgery and immediately ruled him out for the entire 2007-08 season instead of trying to rush him back late in the year. On opening night, Oden will be 13-and-a-half months removed from his microfracture procedure, marking the second-longest rehab on record (Kittles, one of those two players to improve coming back, sat out 16.5 months, making him the top right dot on the chart).

Additionally, that Oden will be able to ease his way back in training camp should be a positive. The way I'm calculating rehab length tends to overstate how long players who come back in camp are actually sidelined because they are testing the knee a full month before the date I use, when they play their first regular-season game. Even with this caveat, players who return in camp still tend to do better than those who return midseason.

Accounting for their lengthier rehabs, the players who come back in camp would be expected to return at 90.1 percent of their pre-microfracture productivity. In fact, they've performed at a 93.0 percent level. Meanwhile, those who have returned midseason have underperformed their expected 85.7 percent of pre-surgery productivity, reaching just 83.7 percent.

Based solely on the length of his rehab, Oden would be expected to lose 4.7 of his per-minute productivity following the surgery. Add in the training-camp factor and that gets as low as a negligible 1.8 percent. Of course, as the first player to undergo the procedure prior to his rookie season, Oden does not have an established level of performance, but his college numbers project very nicely indeed. Using the translation system I introduced before this year's draft, Oden rates as the second-best prospect to enter the NBA dating back through 2000.

*******

Along with Oden's college profile, this suggests that he might need some time to develop into a consistent scorer in the post. However, he should be able to come in and be an elite defender in the middle fairly quickly. In the short term, his recovery from microfracture surgery should be considered a speed bump on his way to superstardom.




http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=416

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Check out this intense analysis on Oden's productivity after MF surgery:


Graphing the time between when the procedure was performed and when the player first returns to an NBA game shows a clear and positive relationship. While the correlation is far from perfect, the trendline shows that on average players lose about 1% less of their pre-microfracture productivity for every extra month spent rehabbing.

This is great news for Oden and the Blazers, who were very conservative following his surgery and immediately ruled him out for the entire 2007-08 season instead of trying to rush him back late in the year. On opening night, Oden will be 13-and-a-half months removed from his microfracture procedure, marking the second-longest rehab on record (Kittles, one of those two players to improve coming back, sat out 16.5 months, making him the top right dot on the chart).

Additionally, that Oden will be able to ease his way back in training camp should be a positive. The way I'm calculating rehab length tends to overstate how long players who come back in camp are actually sidelined because they are testing the knee a full month before the date I use, when they play their first regular-season game. Even with this caveat, players who return in camp still tend to do better than those who return midseason.

Accounting for their lengthier rehabs, the players who come back in camp would be expected to return at 90.1 percent of their pre-microfracture productivity. In fact, they've performed at a 93.0 percent level. Meanwhile, those who have returned midseason have underperformed their expected 85.7 percent of pre-surgery productivity, reaching just 83.7 percent.

Based solely on the length of his rehab, Oden would be expected to lose 4.7 of his per-minute productivity following the surgery. Add in the training-camp factor and that gets as low as a negligible 1.8 percent. Of course, as the first player to undergo the procedure prior to his rookie season, Oden does not have an established level of performance, but his college numbers project very nicely indeed. Using the translation system I introduced before this year's draft, Oden rates as the second-best prospect to enter the NBA dating back through 2000.

*******

Along with Oden's college profile, this suggests that he might need some time to develop into a consistent scorer in the post. However, he should be able to come in and be an elite defender in the middle fairly quickly. In the short term, his recovery from microfracture surgery should be considered a speed bump on his way to superstardom.




http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=416

Nice read thanks for posting......

 

[hasoos]

Check out this intense analysis on Oden's productivity after MF surgery:


Graphing the time between when the procedure was performed and when the player first returns to an NBA game shows a clear and positive relationship. While the correlation is far from perfect, the trendline shows that on average players lose about 1% less of their pre-microfracture productivity for every extra month spent rehabbing.

This is great news for Oden and the Blazers, who were very conservative following his surgery and immediately ruled him out for the entire 2007-08 season instead of trying to rush him back late in the year. On opening night, Oden will be 13-and-a-half months removed from his microfracture procedure, marking the second-longest rehab on record (Kittles, one of those two players to improve coming back, sat out 16.5 months, making him the top right dot on the chart).

Additionally, that Oden will be able to ease his way back in training camp should be a positive. The way I'm calculating rehab length tends to overstate how long players who come back in camp are actually sidelined because they are testing the knee a full month before the date I use, when they play their first regular-season game. Even with this caveat, players who return in camp still tend to do better than those who return midseason.

Accounting for their lengthier rehabs, the players who come back in camp would be expected to return at 90.1 percent of their pre-microfracture productivity. In fact, they've performed at a 93.0 percent level. Meanwhile, those who have returned midseason have underperformed their expected 85.7 percent of pre-surgery productivity, reaching just 83.7 percent.

Based solely on the length of his rehab, Oden would be expected to lose 4.7 of his per-minute productivity following the surgery. Add in the training-camp factor and that gets as low as a negligible 1.8 percent. Of course, as the first player to undergo the procedure prior to his rookie season, Oden does not have an established level of performance, but his college numbers project very nicely indeed. Using the translation system I introduced before this year's draft, Oden rates as the second-best prospect to enter the NBA dating back through 2000.

*******

Along with Oden's college profile, this suggests that he might need some time to develop into a consistent scorer in the post. However, he should be able to come in and be an elite defender in the middle fairly quickly. In the short term, his recovery from microfracture surgery should be considered a speed bump on his way to superstardom.




http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=416

Based upon your calculation, that means nothing. Because your calculation means nothing as compared to the real situation. As a fan who has watched guys such as Amare Stoudemire, and Zach Randolph go through these injuries, and then perform much better in the 2nd season following the knee surgery. Did you ever consider the fact that NBA players are of such a high level, that even a couple of % would be a huge difference in their functionality on the court? This is why: For instance, if a player is missing 5% of your performance calculation. Say that 5% is enough, that their shots get blocked, or missed. Because if you can't elevate to get your shot, you can't. That is just like saying, 95% performance, is a failure. You need 100% to get your shot off. This varies from player to player, and what their limits are.

So calculate all you want. It means nothing. Maybe it can be the focus of your thesis paper in mathematics though.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Based upon your calculation, that means nothing. Because your calculation means nothing as compared to the real situation. As a fan who has watched guys such as Amare Stoudemire, and Zach Randolph go through these injuries, and then perform much better in the 2nd season following the knee surgery. Did you ever consider the fact that NBA players are of such a high level, that even a couple of % would be a huge difference in their functionality on the court? This is why: For instance, if a player is missing 5% of your performance calculation. Say that 5% is enough, that their shots get blocked, or missed. Because if you can't elevate to get your shot, you can't. That is just like saying, 95% performance, is a failure. You need 100% to get your shot off. This varies from player to player, and what their limits are.

So calculate all you want. It means nothing. Maybe it can be the focus of your thesis paper in mathematics though.

Whatever dude . . . not my article.

Bitch all you want. It means nothing. Maybe you can stop hating so much and try to be civil though.

 

[Paxil]

With Oden's inconsistency... it is almost like he is a rookie. Oh wait!

I haven't been disappointed by Oden. I do think he is taking it easy a bit... and I do think Nate probably told him to. I think he is in shape but fatigued. He has never played so much in his life... and it takes time to adjust. Everything is probably sore right now.

As for expectations... he seems to be on par with the #'s we predicted before the season... so why the disappointment? I think it is expectations that are out of whack... not Oden.

I have mentioned before that I thought Oden would have trouble with the mental aspect of the NBA at first. The trash talking, the ultra competetive nature of it. Not only is he playing against the best players in the world... but what sets the best of the best above the many others than have the same skill... is their mental toughness. He will get it... he has just had to tame the instict for so long because of the injury I think he is just having a hard time letting go. Once he stops thinking about the game... and you have seen the game when he does that... and what he can do... he will be fine... a perfect compliment to our rising team.

Kobe Bryant averaged 7 points per game as a rookie... for the whole year... and Oden doesn't shine for a few games and people 'stunned' by his suckiness?

I do *know* what people are getting at... he could be better... a lot better... I actually think he *is* better... I don't think we are seeing the whole package yet... but get off his ass for Christ sakes. Stop analyzing him with a microscope. I think someone has told him all he has to do is focus on playing D and rebounding... Nate simplifying the game for him until he gets his head straight.

Oden is helping us win games do... unlike perhaps a Durant throwing up a bunch of numbers on a losing team. Anyone want Durant and his 2 wins this year? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? We have a *team* and Oden is not being ask to do it all... he is being asked to be a part of a team... and as a team we are very much overachieving this year. Stunningly so.

 

[Masbee]

I am an Oden believer, he controls the middle, and he gets rebounds even when he is having a bad game. Go back and watch some footage, and you will see over the games that Greg has been playing, that players are afraid to go inside, players get boxed out and can't get rebounds over him, and he still averages a significant amount of blocks per game, and even more shots changed.

Secondly most everybody who has paid attention to NBA players who have got Microfracture surgery knows they don't really get their explosiveness back until the 2nd year after the surgery. You go out and compare him to Lebron, but Lebron didn't have F'n knee surgery did he?

What the fuck is it? Have you wallowed in failure so long, that when the Blazers have success, you still have to find something to complain about?

I expect Greg to slowly move along, getting his wind and athletic ability back, and by end of year, have improved to the point where he is a factor on offense and defense by end of year.

I am commenting about one game. Can you dig?

And in that one game, while Oden was patrolling the paint, the Knicks strolled into the lane for layup after layup.

Did you notice Duhon go for an untouched layup? I did. On the other end Roy gets knocked around like a pinball when he dared to go into the paint.

If you think Oden controlled the rim in that game I don't know what to say.

Gezz people. We are allowed to comment about one game - regardless of what happened the game before.

 

[Furball]

Remember, Dudes. The big guy is coming off of Micro Fracture surgery. It took Zack two years to get his explosiveness back. It took Amare over 18 months to get his back. Darius never got his back. It is a major surgery that takes time to full heal. Plus, remember. The kid played 3/4 of a season of college ball and all of that with a broken thumb. Big men take time. A lot of time. Bynum is in his 3rd year. He is barely coming around. He has gotten better every year. Greg will be okay. He will end up averaging a double double this year. How many other Centers are going to do that? Maybe Dwight, Kaman, and possibly Shaq. Give him some time and quit your whining. This forum is turning into a bunch of over reactionary MIXUM clones.

 

[Masbee]

Remember, Dudes. The big guy is coming off of Micro Fracture surgery. It took Zack two years to get his explosiveness back. It took Amare over 18 months to get his back. Darius never got his back. It is a major surgery that takes time to full heal. Plus, remember. The kid played 3/4 of a season of college ball and all of that with a broken thumb. Big men take time. A lot of time. Bynum is in his 3rd year. He is barely coming around. He has gotten better every year. Greg will be okay. He will end up averaging a double double this year. How many other Centers are going to do that? Maybe Dwight, Kaman, and possibly Shaq. Give him some time and quit your whining. This forum is turning into a bunch of over reactionary MIXUM clones.

Actually the overreaction going on is by those self-appointed Thought Police that have decreed that posters are not allowed to note when certain players have bad games.

Even when the player in question tells the world they had a bad game. Gee, how to reconcile that disconnect? Flame the player?

"Greg! STFU. Stop bashing Oden. Don't you know he is coming off surgery?"

Get a grip people. This is a fan board, and many posters here discuss every freakin' detail of every game. That is a shit load of good game/bad game talk. Get over it or don't read it or don't contribute.

Argue against the post not the poster.

Example:

"Greg did have a good game here is why". or

"Greg was off tonight, but I expect these games for a while yet...."

NOT:

"Shut up"

"You are dogmeat"

 

[noknobs]

Based upon your calculation, that means nothing. Because your calculation means nothing as compared to the real situation. As a fan who has watched guys such as Amare Stoudemire, and Zach Randolph go through these injuries, and then perform much better in the 2nd season following the knee surgery. Did you ever consider the fact that NBA players are of such a high level, that even a couple of % would be a huge difference in their functionality on the court? This is why: For instance, if a player is missing 5% of your performance calculation. Say that 5% is enough, that their shots get blocked, or missed. Because if you can't elevate to get your shot, you can't. That is just like saying, 95% performance, is a failure. You need 100% to get your shot off. This varies from player to player, and what their limits are.

I enjoyed the article but I kind of agree with that statement.

The BCS ratings (the Texas/Oklahoma fiasco) showed how flawed math calculations can be when it comes to sports and should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Ed O]

I understand that people can say anything they want about a single game... but I just didn't think Oden was bad last night. He missed two dunks, but that was a pair of flukes. He wasn't aggressive offensively in the second half, but he still was a force on the boards and did at least as well as Joel in controlling the key defensively.

If last night was a "stunning" game (in a bad way) for Oden, then I'm very pleased with him, indeed.

Ed O.