Bailout

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

Sickening. Pelosi is not calling it a bailout, but a "buy-in". This shit makes me sick.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/09/pelosi-its-not.html

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, evidently with a straight face: "This is not about a bailout of Wall Street. It's a buy-in so we can turn our economy around" and protect the assets of ordinary Americans. Well, now I feel so much better about it. I'm buying in! I'm getting a piece of financial products that are so worthless that there's no market for them.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

hey, now lets bailout Detroit.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080928164938.dtc44u1c&show_article=1&lst=1

The US Senate Saturday approved 25 billion dollars in loan guarantees for the financially strapped US auto industry, intended to spark a wave of automotive innovation.

The loan guarantees were included in a continuing resolution that included funding for the US government and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

President George W. Bush has indicated that he intends to sign the bill.

"We're very pleased Congress has chosen to act at this critical time," said Greg Martin, director of communications for General Motors Corp's Washington office.

GM had been subject of much speculation that it could be forced into bankruptcy.

The bill, which was approved by the House of Representatives on Wednesday, are the first loan guarantees for US carmakers since Congress approved a similar 675 million dollar measure for Chrysler Corp. in 1980.

Chrysler Chairman Robert Nardelli, however, said this week the loan guarantees should not be considered a rescue package for struggling carmakers. "This is not a bailout," he said.

 

[Nikolokolus]

It may take ten years to recoup some of the lost value on these mortgages, but if you're going to throw a ton of tax payer scratch in the purchase of assets, it may as well be property.

But calling it a "buy-in" is a bit cheeky; the whole thing stinks to holy hell, but it just doesn't stink quite as much as the collapse of our economy. (to put it in perspective, my student loan hasn't been originated yet and is still in limbo and has been idling that way for a week ... good times).

 

[maxiep]

There's going to be a lot more of this garbage if Obama is elected. We'll have a Legislative and Executive branch who will agree with each other so much they will be nodding like they're at the Wailing Wall. They'll be no brakes on the socialization train--it will be full steam ahead.

 

[AgentDrazenPetrovic]

There's going to be a lot more of this garbage if Obama is elected. We'll have a Legislative and Executive branch who will agree with each other so much they will be nodding like they're at the Wailing Wall. They'll be no brakes on the socialization train--it will be full steam ahead.

I agree.

 

[ucatchtrout]

oh bullshit.

there isn't enough money to do any of that stuff. your boy W has taken care of that.

 

[maxiep]

oh bullshit.

there isn't enough money to do any of that stuff. your boy W has taken care of that.

Uh, what makes you say President Bush is "my boy"? I voted for Gore in 2000. As for having enough money, there is always money when you can "soak the rich" and "evil corporations".

 

[ucatchtrout]

who did you vote for in 2004?

 

[Denny Crane]

I remember seeing a quote by Reagan to Tip O'Neal - "I'm going to take away your allowance."

 

[maxiep]

who did you vote for in 2004?

I didn't cast a vote for President. Neither candidate deserved my vote.

I have political beliefs that go beyond bumper stickers. You should try the same.

 

[Minstrel]

We'll have a Legislative and Executive branch who will agree with each other so much they will be nodding like they're at the Wailing Wall. They'll be no brakes on the socialization train--it will be full steam ahead.

I wish. Sadly, I think you're wrong. I don't think the Democrats are particularly left-wing, and that goes for Obama, too. Bill Clinton and Tom Daschle engineered a drive to the center for the party and the party is still very much centrist.

If he wins the Presidency, I'd love to see Obama be as left-wing as the Bush administration was right-wing.

 

[Jack RamsaysPants]

Wow Amazing Obama got his energy bill going before he is even in office.... Or did he simply pitch something that was already in the works so he could try to take credit for it a year from now. I think the latter.

 

[Minstrel]

So will McCain be seen as the one who deserves big credit for this, creating a big move for him in the polls? Did his "I'm suspending my campaign and rushing to DC" gambit pay off for him?

 

[Jack RamsaysPants]

I wish. Sadly, I think you're wrong. I don't think the Democrats are particularly left-wing, and that goes for Obama, too. Bill Clinton and Tom Daschle engineered a drive to the center for the party and the party is still very much centrist.

If he wins the Presidency, I'd love to see Obama be as left-wing as the Bush administration was right-wing.

The Government is kinda like an airplane... Neither can fly with only one wing.

And I'm really fucking tired so here's another analogy. If you paint your bedroom white and aren't happy with the color do you paint it black to fix it?

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't see how McCain suspended his campaign. He showed up for the debate, and he's running ads here in Vegas. Even a new one that's half making his policy proposals and half saying why Obama's are bad.

 

[Minstrel]

The Government is kinda like an airplane... Neither can fly with only one wing.

And I'm really fucking tired so here's another analogy. If you paint your bedroom white and aren't happy with the color do you paint it black to fix it?

If analogies are what you like, here are two:

If you want to fly straight and the plane has been pulled to the right too far, you want to draw it back to the left to get it back on course.

If painting one's bedroom is a constant, never-ending process and the room is currently too dark, do you start to add some light colour (recognizing that you'll never have a chance to completely redecorate the whole room in one shot)?

 

[maxiep]

I wish. Sadly, I think you're wrong. I don't think the Democrats are particularly left-wing, and that goes for Obama, too. Bill Clinton and Tom Daschle engineered a drive to the center for the party and the party is still very much centrist.

If he wins the Presidency, I'd love to see Obama be as left-wing as the Bush administration was right-wing.

And equally as sadly, I disagree with you. You may not think the Democrats are particularly left-wing, but all you have to do is to see who drives the Democratic Party train, and you'll see we're a long way from the days of the DLC. The extreme left wing of the Democratic Party controls it now, and Pelosi, Reid and Obama are all standard bearers of that part of the spectrum. Four years with those three at the helm working in concert will make the Bush Administration look centrist by comparison.

 

[maxiep]

So will McCain be seen as the one who deserves big credit for this, creating a big move for him in the polls? Did his "I'm suspending my campaign and rushing to DC" gambit pay off for him?

If this was a stunt, it failed. If he really believed he needed to come to DC to save the economy and he put his country first, then it will remembered as a profile in courage.

 

[Denny Crane]

The nation seems to swing like a pendulum from left to right throughout the years. The 1960s were the most progressive decade of my lifetime, while the 1980s were certainly conservative.

The problem is when the left is in power, they institute all kinds of things that are never undone. Social Security is a perfect example. When the right is in power, they've focused on tax cuts and strengthening the military for the most part.

If the pendulum swings left too many times, we'll be a socialist country.

GW Bush is not a conservative, or hardly right wing. The massive amounts of govt. spending (non-war/military) and massive 50% growth of govt. as a whole, and now acquiring companies and properties in a socialist manner.

 

[Minstrel]

Four years with those three at the helm working in concert will make the Bush Administration look centrist by comparison.

I hope. I think they are all quite left-center, but we'll see, if Obama wins.

 

[Jack RamsaysPants]

If analogies are what you like, here are two:

If you want to fly straight and the plane has been pulled to the right too far, you want to draw it back to the left to get it back on course.

If painting one's bedroom is a constant, never-ending process and the room is currently too dark, do you start to add some light colour (recognizing that you'll never have a chance to completely redecorate the whole room in one shot)?

Actually both of your analogies are my point exactly... A plane is actually always pointed straight, sure it might be flying in one direction or another. If you are flying south and you want to go East, you don't pull a u turn and aim directly north, no infact you go at an angle that best puts you back on course.

The aint thing is exactly the same, if it's too dark you lighten it, but you don't go from one extreme to the other otherwise chances are you will again need to repaint as it is now too light.

 

[Minstrel]

Actually both of your analogies are my point exactly... A plane is actually always pointed straight, sure it might be flying in one direction or another. If you are flying south and you want to go East, you don't pull a u turn and aim directly north, no infact you go at an angle that best puts you back on course.

The aint thing is exactly the same, if it's too dark you lighten it, but you don't go from one extreme to the other otherwise chances are you will again need to repaint as it is now too light.

No, there's a major difference between our analogies. Your analogies imply that the new direction will completely replace the old one, as though nothing carries over. My analogies imply pulling away from the current course.

It wouldn't be a "U-turn" or a "white paint replacing black paint." It will be pulling left on the yoke of plane veering right or adding white paint to a wall that is getting too dark. The new doesn't replace the old, it modifies what is already there and brings it back to center.

 

[Jack RamsaysPants]

No, there's a major difference between our analogies. Your analogies imply that the new direction will completely replace the old one, as though nothing carries over. My analogies imply pulling away from the current course.

It wouldn't be a "U-turn" or a "white paint replacing black paint." It will be pulling left on the yoke of plane veering right or adding white paint to a wall that is getting too dark. The new doesn't replace the old, it modifies what is already there and brings it back to center.

Then we agree completely. I was referring to you saying you hope Obama goes as left wing as Bush has gone right wing.

 

[maxiep]

Something tells me what Minstrel's "center" is, isn't the same as my "center". Therefore, this is all a silly semantic debate as our centers are a personal opinion. But allowing the political spectrum to comprise the current Congress and Administration, it's impossible to say that Barack Obama wouldn't be on the farthest left fringe of his party. Even Bernie Sanders hasn't had that kind of dogma to the left.

 

[Minstrel]

Then we agree completely. I was referring to you saying you hope Obama goes as left wing as Bush has gone right wing.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about too. If the plane has been pulled X to right, it should be pulled back X to the left. Since we're not starting from a blank slate (all of what Bush has don is where we'll start), Obama being as left-wing as Bush was right-wing will pull the nation back to the center.

 

[maxiep]

Yes, that's what I'm talking about too. If the plane has been pulled X to right, it should be pulled back X to the left. Since we're not starting from a blank slate (all of what Bush has don is where we'll start), Obama being as left-wing as Bush was right-wing will pull the nation back to the center.

It's a ridiculous proposition to claim Obama is as left-leaning as Bush is right leaning. Compassionate Conservatism has a strongly left-wing element. Those of us who believe in a more limited government aren't represented at all.

 

[ucatchtrout]

It's a ridiculous proposition to claim Obama is as left-leaning as Bush is right leaning. Compassionate Conservatism has a strongly left-wing element. Those of us who believe in a more limited government aren't represented at all.

very good point.

 

[Minstrel]

But allowing the political spectrum to comprise the current Congress and Administration, it's impossible to say that Barack Obama wouldn't be on the farthest left fringe of his party.

If you use only the current Congress and Administration, then yes, Obama is quite to the left. However, as far as I'm concerned, the current Congress and Administration are more to the right of center and the "farthest left" is left-center. To put it in statistical terms, the mean is right of center and the variance isn't very large. Being "the most left" in a party that is centrist when it comes to the mainstream faction doesn't say much.

Dennis Kucinich and Carole Mosley-Braun are much more left-leaning than Obama, for example. It isn't even close. But they're not very mainstream within the centrist Democratic party and thus get essentially no support.

 

[Minstrel]

It's a ridiculous proposition to claim Obama is as left-leaning as Bush is right leaning.

I don't even know what you're talking about. I said I hope he is, as President, not that he is.

Compassionate Conservatism has a strongly left-wing element. Those of us who believe in a more limited government aren't represented at all.

"Compassionate conservatism" was a buzzword in the 2000 election to appeal to independents. It's not a real thing. There's nothing "compassionate" about Bush's politically ideology.

Yes, Bush isn't about limited government. The Republican party hasn't been about limited government since Barry Goldwater.

The main difference between us is that you seem to care most about financial issues, while I care most about social issues. Bush is not a financial conservative, but he's very, very much a social conservative.

 

[maxiep]

If you use only the current Congress and Administration, then yes, Obama is quite to the left. However, as far as I'm concerned, the current Congress and Administration are more to the right of center and the "farthest left" is left-center. To put it in statistical terms, the mean is right of center and the variance isn't very large. Being "the most left" in a party that is centrist when it comes to the mainstream faction doesn't say much.

Dennis Kucinich and Carole Mosley-Braun are much more left-leaning than Obama, for example. It isn't even close. But they're not very mainstream within the centrist Democratic party and thus get essentially no support.

However, the 535 people that comprise the Congress are a statistically robust representation of the views expressed by the population of this country. The problem is that the House is currently led by a Representative from one of the farthest-left constituencies in the country. That fact drives policy eminating from that body. As for the Executive, I can't recall a single President that would so close to being an outlier as Obama would on either side since George McGovern in 1972 and Barry Goldwater (on the right) in 1964.

If I wanted to live in Western Europe, I could move there again. I prefer something different.