Bayless

[adrenalize74]

If Bayless cant become a true PG and remains a scoring threat that can play tough perimeter D......is there really anything wrong with having 2 Roy type players as our backcourt?

I was wondering just how effective having 2 guys that can practically score at will, attack the rim, get fouls play defense AND combine for 12-15 assist per game could be? I would think that having 2 combo guards like that playing together would create all kinds of problems for defenses and really upgrades our defense.

Besides that, LA now doesnt NEED to play low post as it will help open up lanes for Bayless and Roy, Oden can take care of it all by himself.

Thoughts?

 

[Wheels]

If Bayless cant become a true PG and remains a scoring threat that can play tough perimeter D......is there really anything wrong with having 2 Roy type players as our backcourt?

So youre asking him to become Chris Paul? Or another Perfect PG.. of course a True PG who plays D and scores will fit on any team.. not sure of the point youre trying to make sorry.

 

[Minstrel]

I've been saying for a while that what Portland needs out of its point guard is, ideally, someone who can defend opposing point guards, bring the ball up the court against pressure, play off the ball as a shooter who can stretch the defense and play with the ball in his hands by getting to the rim and either finishing, drawing a foul or finding an open teammate as the defense collapses.

None of that requires being a brilliant passer/distributor, and all of it seems within Bayless' ability to become over the next few years. Having Brandon Roy at shooting guard is a luxury that allows Portland to need less passing/distribution ability from its point guard.

 

[adrenalize74]

So youre asking him to become Chris Paul? Or another Perfect PG.. of course a True PG who plays D and scores will fit on any team.. not sure of the point youre trying to make sorry.

By "true point guard" I am talking about a pass-first PG that CAN score. Currently he is more of a SG in a PG body. My scenraio is if he remains a scoring PG that can pass.

I have heard soo many times about how well Roy plays PG.....Bayless may be able to play the PG the same way Roy does. A big time scoring threat that can pass and set up teamates.

 

[Wheels]

By "true point guard" I am talking about a pass-first PG that CAN score. Currently he is more of a SG in a PG body. My scenraio is if he remains a scoring PG that can pass.

I have heard soo many times about how well Roy plays PG.....Bayless may be able to play the PG the same way Roy does. A big time scoring threat that can pass and set up teamates.

So who would be a good example of a player you are referring too? I guess to me A true PG who CAN score would be like Calderon.. but he isnt a Defensive player.. A True PG, who can Score, and Defend would be a top PG in the league.. like Chris Paul or someone.. sorry not trying to be an ass, just trying to understand what type of player you mean.

 

[BalancedMan]

If Bayless cant become a true PG and remains a scoring threat that can play tough perimeter D......is there really anything wrong with having 2 Roy type players as our backcourt?

I was wondering just how effective having 2 guys that can practically score at will, attack the rim, get fouls play defense AND combine for 12-15 assist per game could be? I would think that having 2 combo guards like that playing together would create all kinds of problems for defenses and really upgrades our defense.

Besides that, LA now doesnt NEED to play low post as it will help open up lanes for Bayless and Roy, Oden can take care of it all by himself.

Thoughts?

You mean the Mo Williams / Delonte West type of PG attack that Cleveland has employed?

The best players handle the ball a lot. I don't care if it's Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Paul Pierce...usually that SG/SF swing man can handle the ball pretty well and do his thing, creating for himself and others. It's nice to have multiple people that can do it; not necessary, but a nice luxury. If Bayless can guard other PG's, and nothing to this point has proved to me that it's unlikely, then sure I can see them out there together. Can we get a pass-first PG...maybe, but who? Unlikely that we'll find one in the draft where we are, and what elite PG can we get in FA? Sessions? He's shown potential, so maybe. Miller is good, but getting older every year, and Bibby is a shell of his days in Sacramento. So that is the dilemma. I think with Roy we can get by with a Mo Williams type of PG. Granted, Mo is pretty good...borderline all-star caliber good, but that's not really the point is it. We're talking about the style of PG.

 

[Minstrel]

So who would be a good example of a player you are referring too? I guess to me A true PG who CAN score would be like Calderon.. but he isnt a Defensive player..

John Stockton?

It's hard to think of a lot of examples of pass-first point guards who also were real threats to score and played good or better defense. Gary Payton was more of a Chris Paul, a pass/score hybrid. Jason Kidd was pass-first and a great defender, but not a major scoring threat. Most decent (but not great) point guards are missing at least one of those skills.

 

[Wheels]

John Stockton?

It's hard to think of a lot of examples of pass-first point guards who also were real threats to score and played good or better defense. Gary Payton was more of a Chris Paul, a pass/score hybrid. Jason Kidd was pass-first and a great defender, but not a major scoring threat. Most decent (but not great) point guards are missing at least one of those skills.

Exactly.. thats where I'm thrown off.. most teams could use a HOF PG and Obviously we would LOVE a Kidd, Stockton, or Payton.. but one of those would not be available to us. so I'm just wondering which one of those skills would be missing, if its the pure PG part thats missing but can score and D up, then that could be Bayless. If one who can Defend and Pass then someone like Kidd. One's who can score, pass, and possibly D up could be Miller, or Sessions.. but they cant shoot. So I just am a little lost.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I've been saying for a while that what Portland needs out of its point guard is, ideally, someone who can defend opposing point guards, bring the ball up the court against pressure, play off the ball as a shooter who can stretch the defense and play with the ball in his hands by getting to the rim and either finishing, drawing a foul or finding an open teammate as the defense collapses.

None of that requires being a brilliant passer/distributor, and all of it seems within Bayless' ability to become over the next few years. Having Brandon Roy at shooting guard is a luxury that allows Portland to need less passing/distribution ability from its point guard.

Haven't you also advocated for getting Oden the ball more. I think it was Sergio who was best at getting GO the ball in the right position and using GO off the pick and roll.

I agree with all the traits you said a PG should have other than I put the passer/distributor (and running the fast break) as a necessary skills the PG needs.

 

[adrenalize74]

So who would be a good example of a player you are referring too? I guess to me A true PG who CAN score would be like Calderon.. but he isnt a Defensive player.. A True PG, who can Score, and Defend would be a top PG in the league.. like Chris Paul or someone.. sorry not trying to be an ass, just trying to understand what type of player you mean.

How about this.... A true PG is one who is looking to make a pass, get assists, guard opposing PGs, snag 3-4 rebs a game and score only when oportunities arrise. Put up stat lines like 10pts, 8ast, 3rebs, 2 stl. type games. Nothing spectacular in any category, but steady, efficient and effective. In actuality, Steve Blake with better defense and ability to slash.

I am sorry I cant give good player examples, I was in Afghanistan for a year and missed all but the last 2 weeks of the season and only watched Blazer playoff games, I am pretty rusty on other players around the league this year. Rondo comes to mind though for current players. Stockton would definatly be considered a "Pure PG". Maybe I should use "traditional" PG instead of pure PG.

Roy: 22ppg 6ast
Bayless: 15ppg 6ast

Does any of this make sense? lol

 

[Minstrel]

Haven't you also advocated for getting Oden the ball more. I think it was Sergio who was best at getting GO the ball in the right position and using GO off the pick and roll.

Yes, but I don't know if that's an issue of personnel or design. It felt like the Blazers had two modes with Oden: either plant him in the post and enter the ball to him and let him try to work, or ignore him on offense. Neither seemed ideal for his development at that point in time. They tried precious little pick and rolls or lobs, even though I think Blake, Roy and Rudy all have the passing skills to do those types of things.

I agree with all the traits you said a PG should have other than I put the passer/distributor (and running the fast break) as a necessary skills the PG needs.

What you're describing is a traditional point guard. In most cases, I place passing/distributing at or near the top of what a point guard needs. For the Blazers, I think they can sustain a point guard with lesser passing/distribution skills because they have Roy, who has very good skills for a two guard. Rather than concentrating all the play-making skills in the point guard, I think it's viable to distribute them over both guards.

 

[Wheels]

How about this.... A true PG is one who is looking to make a pass, get assists, guard opposing PGs, snag 3-4 rebs a game and score only when oportunities arrise. Put up stat lines like 10pts, 8ast, 3rebs, 2 stl. type games. Nothing spectacular in any category, but steady, efficient and effective. In actuality, Steve Blake with better defense and ability to slash.

I am sorry I cant give good player examples, I was in Afghanistan for a year and missed all but the last 2 weeks of the season and only watched Blazer playoff games, I am pretty rusty on other players around the league this year. Rondo comes to mind though.

Bayless could be Chris Paul-esq, without the ability to dish 10+ assist per game. Prob closer to a D Williams type, but a touch more scoring and touch less passing.

Roy: 22ppg 6ast
Bayless: 15ppg 6ast

Does any of this make sense? lol

lol well now it makes more sense yes. So I say Ramon Sessions, or Andre Miller.

 

[adrenalize74]

Yes, but I don't know if that's an issue of personnel or design. It felt like the Blazers had two modes with Oden: either plant him in the post and enter the ball to him and let him try to work, or ignore him on offense. Neither seemed ideal for his development at that point in time. They tried precious little pick and rolls or lobs, even though I think Blake, Roy and Rudy all have the passing skills to do those types of things.



What you're describing is a traditional point guard. In most cases, I place passing/distributing at or near the top of what a point guard needs. For the Blazers, I think they can sustain a point guard with lesser passing/distribution skills because they have Roy, who has very good skills for a two guard. Rather than concentrating all the play-making skills in the point guard, I think it's viable to distribute them over both guards.

This is the essence of my question. It would not be the traditional PG/SG backcourt.....it would be a combo guard/combo guard backcourt.

Teams have to account for Roy and often cheat over to help on D. Now you would have Bayless also threatening, so you cant really cheat over as much. I would think this creates more oportunities for Webster and LA as one or both the Forwards are going to have to help on D.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

What you're describing is a traditional point guard. In most cases, I place passing/distributing at or near the top of what a point guard needs. For the Blazers, I think they can sustain a point guard with lesser passing/distribution skills because they have Roy, who has very good skills for a two guard. Rather than concentrating all the play-making skills in the point guard, I think it's viable to distribute them over both guards.

You're right, I am thinking more of a traditional PG. I see what you are saying about Roy. But I think when it comes to ball handling in general, the Blazers don't excel in this area. I think Blazers do have a lot of fire power . . . but they need someone else to create and set up the gunners (Rudy, Webster, Aldridge, Outlaw, Oden down low, and hopefully even Batum).

Roy will do his thing, but one more player who handles the ball well and makes good decisions (in the context of this post . . . good passing decisions) is needed. But it is really hard for me to put one trait over another without analyzing the whole player.

If we are talking Bayless, I like his defense (and see him learning to play good man on man defesne and help defense, not there yet), his intensity, his ability to drive (although so far in the NBA he hasn't shown the finishing ability he did in summer league) . . . but if he can't learn to get the offense flowing or create shots for others, I don't think these other abilities he does well will overcome these issues if they play him at PG . . . even with Roy at SG (IMO).

 

[hasoos]

Yea this thread and my thread about Reggie Millers reply are going down the same driving lane. We don't need a 10 assist a night guy, because Roy gets 5 or 6 assist himself most nights. We need another 5 or 6 assist (CONSISTENT) guy who can carry his share of the scoring load so Roy doesn't have to carry it all every damn night. If Roy keeps on having to carry the load he has, he will end up like Dwade, completely beat to hell all of the time, and probably facing a shorter career because of it.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

My objection to this idea is that it sidelines Greg Oden (and possibly LaMarcus Aldridge). Roy already dominates the ball a bit too much. It's fine for him to take over in the fourth, but you want the ball to move around more. Maybe if we had a kind of Princeton or Triangle offense where the ball moved around a lot more, then okay. But I don't want TWO guards who hold the ball.

That's what's great about Rudy. It's pretty rare that he hogs the ball, and in fact, he may be the best player in the team at looking to get the ball to Oden. I'd rather HE played alongside Roy than Bayless did.

 

[<-=*PdX*=->]

What if KP is trying to recreate the idea of the back court? What if he has a hybrid style in mind that no other team uses? A 2 Roy type player back court? or some sort of plan like that that none of us are seeing because it hasn't been done before? What if KP is thinking outside of the box?

 

[hasoos]

What if KP is trying to recreate the idea of the back court? What if he has a hybrid style in mind that no other team uses? A 2 Roy type player back court? or some sort of plan like that that none of us are seeing because it hasn't been done before? What if KP is thinking outside of the box?

He may not be though. I have pointed out before that if you look at the teams that have won a championship over the last 20 years, none of them have had a pure pass first type PG.

Last year-Boston-Rondo-Definitly not pass first.
San Antonio-Parker, not pass first.
Miami Heat-Jwill and GP, both not pass first.
Detroit Pistons-Chauncy Billups-Not pass first.
LA Lakers-Derek Fisher-uses oxygen and plays defense.
Chicago Bulls-Kerr, Armstrong, Hodges, Harper. Can you say shoot 3's?

The facts are, that the only pass first PG who made it to the finals in the last 20 years was John Stockton, and he lost.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

Bayless's hand speed vs. a drummer's hand speed on Sports Science.

Go to the 55:00 mark in the video.

[video=youtube;I6fIt8gvyo0]

 

[The_Lillard_King]

What if KP is trying to recreate the idea of the back court? What if he has a hybrid style in mind that no other team uses? A 2 Roy type player back court? or some sort of plan like that that none of us are seeing because it hasn't been done before? What if KP is thinking outside of the box?

Roy and . . . . . . . . . Allen Iverson.

 

[rocketeer]

So youre asking him to become Chris Paul? Or another Perfect PG.. of course a True PG who plays D and scores will fit on any team.. not sure of the point youre trying to make sorry.

i think you misread his post. he says if bayless can't become a true pg but(though he uses "and" here) remains a scoring threat who can play defense.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

He has a long way to go.

A lonnnnnnng way to go.

 

[Draco]

Teams have to account for Roy and often cheat over to help on D. Now you would have Bayless also threatening, so you cant really cheat over as much. I would think this creates more oportunities for Webster and LA as one or both the Forwards are going to have to help on D.

Bayless shot .365 from the field .259 from behind the arch, far worse than even Sergio. Before we talk about him fitting alongside Roy as a starting PG he needs to become an acceptable backup. Based on his play last year he doesn't deserve to be on an NBA roster.

Maybe he will become a legit shooting threat from deep, he is still very young. But that is a long way off.

 

[cdub503]

Bayless shot .365 from the field .259 from behind the arch, far worse than even Sergio. Before we talk about him fitting alongside Roy as a starting PG he needs to become an acceptable backup. Based on his play last year he doesn't deserve to be on an NBA roster.

Maybe he will become a legit shooting threat from deep, he is still very young. But that is a long way off.

how many games did he play that werent garbage games? might as well put him in the same boat as outlaws first apperance of the playoffs cant decide on just a couple of games

 

[MARIS61]

Bayless shot .365 from the field .259 from behind the arch, far worse than even Sergio. Before we talk about him fitting alongside Roy as a starting PG he needs to become an acceptable backup. Based on his play last year he doesn't deserve to be on an NBA roster.

Maybe he will become a legit shooting threat from deep, he is still very young. But that is a long way off.

I agree.

Based on his play this year I would expect him to be shopped for trade this summer.

 

[Draco]

how many games did he play that werent garbage games? might as well put him in the same boat as outlaws first apperance of the playoffs cant decide on just a couple of games

Of course those players struggles in one season won't define their entire careers, but it is the beginning of forming a prediction of where they'll end up.

Could Bayless have drastic improvements in the future? Sure, he could, but there's no indication he will from his play this last year.

Whereas Lamarcus played well in the playoffs and Rudy had a great first season, you can form a preliminary prediction of where they will end up.

 

[HailBlazers]

Could Bayless have drastic improvements in the future? Sure, he could, but there's no indication he will from his play this last year.

How about Character, Work Ethic, Grit, and Determination? That's plenty of indication for me that he'll hone his skills this off season.

Man, some of you Blazers fans are just straight up non-believers and short-term thinkers. Gets Real Old.

 

[adrenalize74]

What if KP is trying to recreate the idea of the back court? What if he has a hybrid style in mind that no other team uses? A 2 Roy type player back court? or some sort of plan like that that none of us are seeing because it hasn't been done before? What if KP is thinking outside of the box?

Really a summary of my OP.

I realize that his jump shot isnt on par at the moment, but that wasnt the case coming out of college (if I remember correctly). He was a good shooter, just has lost his touch due to lack of play time.

Also, I dont see this hindering Oden or LAs impact. If Bayless can take some load off Roy, they can spread the ball around more and Roy doenst always have to have it in his hands. Defenses wont get bunched up because you have 2 legit perimeter shooter/slashers to stay out on. (again assuming Bayless gets his shot back). If the PF is always looking to slide out and help stop Roy AND Bayless, this leaves either Oden or LA with either 1-on-1 or alone. Also improves the drive and dump oportunities.

I dont want to sound like I am a HUGE Bayless fanatic or anything.....this may never work and Bayless may never be able to play anyting but an undersized SG....all just speculation.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Comparisons with Bayless's first season. Includes another guy that Nate was high on - to the point where he predicted he would win us 3 or 4 games.