Big Cat Confused by Big Man Rotation

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Collins seems to be even less interested in Offense than last year... I mean come on. I understand where the cat is coming from, but he isnt doing any better. That said though Jason Collins is still showing his wares as a smart defensive player, but it is so frustrating that on offense he turns into Jahidi White... I mean before he was embarrasing but now? Its an all new low! Even Dennis Rodman shot at least 2 shots per game...</p>

Magloire has every right to be puzzled, however unless he consistantly demonstrates the hustle we saw against the wiz, he has no leg to stand on. Period.</p>
 
Jizzy, did I mention how much I think you rock? No really.... Cool Avatar as always.</p>
 
I wasn't focusing on what Magloire was doing, to be honest, so I can't comment on how or how much he was contributing, or whether he was just "lucky" in that he was in the game when the nets played well, or against Blatche who he should just dominate physically. It's possible that his contribution was solely that he was better than Krstic, I don't know. When Collins was in the game, I really focused on him on offense--I've been trying to focus on a particular player an entire game--and he did a great job, I thought. The Wizards didn't keep a body on him, so he just wandered around the court, placing picks onup to two or three different players on the same play to give the ball-handler space. The problem that Collins had was solely that the Nets were missing shots, not that he was being outplayed. I also don't think the Wizards had any offensive rebounds while he was in the game. It's really fun to do, especially with the increased movement this year. However, I didn't pay attention to magloire, like I said.</p>

Anyway, to answer the question, the plus-minus figure counts how much the Nets outscored the Wizards while Magloire was in the game. In this case, Magloire was int he game whenever the nets made a run, and was on the bench pretty much when they sucked. The Wizards had four good runs: 16-0 just after the start of the game; 9-0 near the beginning of the second quarter, and two 6-0 runs in the fourth sandwiching an 8-0 run by the Nets. Magoire was on the bench for those first two runs, but on the court when the Nets had a 19-2 run to close the first half, and a 17-8 run to close the third.</p>

The Kidd-Jefferson-Wright trio was plus-nine, by the way.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins sucks.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Collins was awesome. Why don't you count the number of offensive rebounds the Wizards had when he was in the game? I think it was zero.</p>
 
Collins 0 points 0 rebounds 0 assists 2 fouls 2 turnover and +/- is -21.</p>

Yeah, you can say he helped us by some points, but when he is on the court, we are just blown out.</p>

Collins sucks, that's for sure, stop protecting him anymore.</p>
 
Magloire +/- = +28.</p>

You can say he is not doing better now, but what he brings to the table for this team is reallya gift.We never had a solid rebounder</p>

after the K-Mart era.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins 0 points 0 rebounds 0 assists 2 fouls 2 turnover and +/- is -21.</p>

Yeah, you can say he helped us by some points, but when he is on the court, we are just blown out.</p>

Collins sucks, that's for sure, stop protecting him anymore.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Jarkid, is it possible for you to watch games where you are? If so, then just focus on Collins. He did a really good job yesterday. The problem, as I've said, was just that the Nets' shots weren't falling and they created a ton of turnovers early. During the first six minutes of the game, when Collins was in, they had 12 possessions, and six of them ended on five turnovers anda three-second violation. The Nets missed four or five jumpshots during that time. They were mostly good shots, and a reason for that was that Collins was creating a lot of room for them to shoot; in other words, he wasn't just standing around and watching the action. You can't hold him responsible for the turnovers (well, one of them was an offensive foul by him) or missed shots. The Wizards were scoring on three-pointers and 18-foot jumpshots--again, not Collins' fault. In the second quarter, when Collins was in the game, the Nets took four jump shots and missed all of them, while Jamieson made a layup and a six-foot jumper. NOT COLLINS' FAULT. Also, while he was in the game the Nets gave up ZERO offensive rebounds. ZERO. </p>
 
Its not what Collins does dumpy, its what he wont (or cant do). If he would just once make his man work hard on D, his teamates would get easier shots. They know he isnt going to hit a 12 footer anytime soon so they cheat. I remember watching Josh Smith matched up him last year. He left Collins WIDE open so many times and he wasnt made to be held accountable once! All we ask for is just the occasional jumper. Even 3 attempts per game would at least make him man think twice...</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Downunderwonder)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Its not what Collins does dumpy, its what he wont (or cant do). If he would just once make his man work hard on D, his teamates would get easier shots. They know he isnt going to hit a 12 footer anytime soon so they cheat. I remember watching Josh Smith matched up him last year. He left Collins WIDE open so many times and he wasnt made to be held accountable once! All we ask for is just the occasional jumper. Even 3 attempts per game would at least make him man think twice...</p>

</div></p>

</p>

He DOES make it easier on them. because no one boxes him out, he plays like a roving linebacker, picking off the opposing defenders one by one. I think this is really brought out by the increased movement. Really, just focus on him.</p>
 
I get it... I dont know its more frustration than anything watching him. His BBall IQ is off the charts, but he doesnt fully utilise his advantages. I just wish he would get involved more. I agree he works extremely hard, but would a few extra offensive boards be out of the question? Based on your arguement he should be getting at least 3-4 per game... I watched him for a full game last year after you made the exact same arguement, and you were 100% correct on the points you raised, but I felt there was a certain rebound factor lacking, something that Boone (funnily enough) provided towards the end of the season.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins 0 points 0 rebounds 0 assists 2 fouls 2 turnover and +/- is -21.</p>

Yeah, you can say he helped us by some points, but when he is on the court, we are just blown out.</p>

Collins sucks, that's for sure, stop protecting him anymore.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Jarkid, is it possible for you to watch games where you are? If so, then just focus on Collins. He did a really good job yesterday. The problem, as I've said, was just that the Nets' shots weren't falling and they created a ton of turnovers early. During the first six minutes of the game, when Collins was in, they had 12 possessions, and six of them ended on five turnovers anda three-second violation. The Nets missed four or five jumpshots during that time. They were mostly good shots, and a reason for that was that Collins was creating a lot of room for them to shoot; in other words, he wasn't just standing around and watching the action. You can't hold him responsible for the turnovers (well, one of them was an offensive foul by him) or missed shots. The Wizards were scoring on three-pointers and 18-foot jumpshots--again, not Collins' fault. In the second quarter, when Collins was in the game, the Nets took four jump shots and missed all of them, while Jamieson made a layup and a six-foot jumper. NOT COLLINS' FAULT. Also, while he was in the game the Nets gave up ZERO offensive rebounds. ZERO. </p>

</div></p>

</p>

Of course, I can watch every Nets ball game from where I am.</p>

Yeah, Collins did all his things, box out, set picks, or defend.</p>

but in the NBA History, every champion team never start this kind of big man, just to box out, set pick, and play defense only,</p>

while averages nearly triple-zeros. We just got blown out in the first quarter, because we don't have enough offensive power.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins 0 points 0 rebounds 0 assists 2 fouls 2 turnover and +/- is -21.</p>

Yeah, you can say he helped us by some points, but when he is on the court, we are just blown out.</p>

Collins sucks, that's for sure, stop protecting him anymore.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Jarkid, is it possible for you to watch games where you are? If so, then just focus on Collins. He did a really good job yesterday. The problem, as I've said, was just that the Nets' shots weren't falling and they created a ton of turnovers early. During the first six minutes of the game, when Collins was in, they had 12 possessions, and six of them ended on five turnovers anda three-second violation. The Nets missed four or five jumpshots during that time. They were mostly good shots, and a reason for that was that Collins was creating a lot of room for them to shoot; in other words, he wasn't just standing around and watching the action. You can't hold him responsible for the turnovers (well, one of them was an offensive foul by him) or missed shots. The Wizards were scoring on three-pointers and 18-foot jumpshots--again, not Collins' fault. In the second quarter, when Collins was in the game, the Nets took four jump shots and missed all of them, while Jamieson made a layup and a six-foot jumper. NOT COLLINS' FAULT. Also, while he was in the game the Nets gave up ZERO offensive rebounds. ZERO. </p>

</div></p>

</p>

Of course, I can watch every Nets ball game from where I am.</p>

Yeah, Collins did all his things, box out, set picks, or defend.</p>

but in the NBA History, every champion team never start this kind of big man, just to box out, set pick, and play defense only,</p>

while averages nearly triple-zeros. We just got blown out in the first quarter, because we don't have enough offensive power.</p>

</div></p>

The Spurs play Elson and Oberto. The reason we got blown out has nothing to do with Collins' stats. Again, he wasn't responsible for the turnovers and the missed jump shots.</p>

</p>
 
I value what Collins can do. I really honestly think he brings alot to the game in terms of creating space, and I don't mind his triple-0's. I think there is a point to be made that with Krstic retooling and recovering that we need a steady post up option if the offense falls flat. Perhaps a Maglorie/Collins dou might not be a bad thing. I would think we'd more or less own the paint, and have a major advantage on the boards. I dunno, but the prospect of Nenad starting vs. the Celtics is a bit far fetched. Krstic will probably start, but he's a bit of a liability at this point against a team that can beat you in one quarter. One thing about Cat is that he did draw alot of fouls, and agitated his man. I'm not sure about what he can do against KG, but I reckon it's a damn sight more than Krstic can do at this point in the season.
 
Collins sucks.</p>

The reason for our turnovers is because the defense knows the ball's going to be in one of our Big Three's hands and the defense gears up for that and the last thing they do is pass it to Twin. He's a decent defender against SOME guys, for instance, he can take Bosh out of a game but get destroyed by KG, surprising since both play the same type of game. His offense is horrible, to the point where he could go a season scoring only 10 pts. I like his defense but his lack of offensive skill hurts this team.</p>
 
Jizzy, I love Collins, because I'm a chess player. In chess, unless one side really screws up, one color isn't "better" than the other--they just have different positives and negatives associated with their positions--the magic word is "imbalance." The goal of a chess player is essentially to CREATE imbalances, to embrace them, and then create an envirnment on the rest of the board to make YOUR situation better than your opponents'. Collins is great because he is a one-man imbalance, and if used correctly, he could be a positive force. It's the job of the coach to create a situation where his strengths are maximized and his weaknesses minimized. Collins is actually the type of player you can build around for that reason, just like Kidd is. You can say he "sucks" all you want, but without him on the court, RJ, Kidd, and VC would be worse. I think that Collins is actually at his best in a free-flowing offense like the kind that Nets are trying to implement right now, because he helps his teammates get open by playing the roving linebacker role.</p>

Do I wish that he could hit a jump shot and dunk the ball? Of course. Would I take someone who could do those things, but didn't help the Nets become one of the better rebounding teams in the league, and didn't get body assists so often? It would depend on who else was on the team, to be honest.</p>

As I've said before, I think that Kidd, Carter, RJ, and Collins work very well together--and that is being proven this year, as the Kidd-Carter-Wright-RJ-Collins unit has been the best used thus far. As I've also said, I'm NOT so sure that Collins + Krstic in the frontcourt together is all that great. And guess what? Collins + Krstic together has been terrible. Collins needs to be paired with a rebounder that can score in the post. Collins would make that sort of player better than he normally is. Someone like, say, Sean Williams. Magloire would fit that definition, but a Magloire + Collins combination would detract from the imbalances created by playing Jason Kidd. So I might be more likely to pair Magloire and Collins when Armstrong is the PG.</p>
 
I've been posting mainly negatives about Collins to the point where I'm boring myself.</p>

But if Collins fits in with the team, a large part has to do with the fact that he's played with them so much.</p>

Plain and simple, he doesn't have the talent though. Not for rebounding, not for scoring and not for blocking shots. Three big, essential characteristics you'd expect from a big. He's a weird type of player who *does* have the icing on the cake (i.e. hustle, smarts) but you still go hungry w/o the cake (another quote for those interested ;-) )</p>

Ergo. Let's weave someone else in and see if given the same opportunity, they can eventually fit in with the team.</p>

A lot of Collins supporters seem to hang their hat on +/- these days. Individual Plus and Minus stats are the latest fad but there is a high correlation factor involved with the percentage of time you're surrounded by solid players. These combo Plus/Minus stats but for the more frequent line-ups for a season are so statistically insignificant, I don't know how anything rational can be determined from them. They seem not only subject to the random fluctuation inherent in anything stochastic, they totally disregard who in bejesus the time was logged against. If a stat tells you that Jason Collins contributes anywhere *near* as much to a team as Jason Kidd, then that's a good sign the stat sucks. Just like...aw, I can't say it.</p>

I say this after watching Collins play plenty too.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

[The Spurs play Elson and Oberto. The reason we got blown out has nothing to do with Collins' stats. Again, he wasn't responsible for the turnovers and the missed jump shots.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

Elson averages 6.2 points 8 rebouns a game this season !! Oberto averages 4 points and 3.8 rebounds !</p>

Jason Collins ? 4 points 3 rebounds 1 assists ? Sorry, No. He averages 0.2 points 2.2 rebounds and 0.2 assists FG% = 0.2.</p>

He even can't make a layup !! he always gets blocked !</p>

Elson and Oberto are way better than Collins, and they make more threats in the offensive ends.</p>

By the way, they already have a guy whose name is Tim Duncan. Sorry, we don't even have JO.</p>
 
Once again, welcome Krakista!</p>

And welcome Mogriffjr!</p>

Hope you guys enjoy S2. If you need anything, PM me.</p>
 
I'll be honest, I can't make up my mind on Collins.</p>

On one side, he looks so good with this team at times. He's a smart player, who does alot of things right.</p>

On the other side, we could put much better alongside Kidd, RJ, and VC. We could get someone who can defend, set good picks, box out...and still rebound, score, and block shots.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

We could get someone who can defend, set good picks, box out...and still rebound, score, and block shots.</p>

</div></p>

Other than arguably Big Todd, that's what the Nets have been missing all during their resurgance from the ashes. Maybe the closest they ever came was in picking up Mutumbo. And when he got hurt they (for reasons I'll never understand) didn't try to integrate him back in when he recovered. Instead they went into the finals and got mugwamped by the the Spurs frontline.</p>

The team is now revamped since the Great Breakup losing Martin, Kittles and a damn nice bench in A Train, Luuuuucius, Anthony Johnson. We've got depth finally to go along with key additions of Carter and Krstic in the Williams's, Mr. Magoo, Sandbar, Wright and even Boooone.</p>

I don't want to see the same thing happen (going deep in the playoffs) with the same weak link again (well, maybe I do since at this point it would be a good season...but you know what I mean). Start preparing now. Upgrade from within. That's my view.</p>

Only thing that I can figure (as I once read somewhere online) is that Jason Collins has pictures of somebody in a comprimising position.</p>

Final point: I'm conflicted too. Part of me wants to poke fun at JC and part doesn't. I really hate btw bashing someone who does give effort. I suppose like many of us, I could equally get on Carter. But Carter fell into our lap. He sure can be frustrating and ain't noway, nohow a franchise savior/leader like Kobe or Lebron. I dunno how I'd even rate him against Richard Hamilton and Ray Allen. But...he's a better shooting guard than most teams have and with him let's hope the Nets can go places as a team and for someone to show he's even an average player up front.</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

We could get someone who can defend, set good picks, box out...and still rebound, score, and block shots.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

How much you lookin' to spend on that car?</p>
 
If setting picks and boxing out is the ONLY thing a player can do, than that player better make sure that every screen he sets results in a season ending injury for the opposing player. That is the only way collins could possibly make up for his triple 0, 2, 0 averages. Lets not forget that many of these screens result in VC fallaways, so its not Collins is just creating shots and serving them on a silver platter like j kidd. there is just no way in hell the screens and box outs can make up for a complete incompetence in every other basketball category.</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

We could get someone who can defend, set good picks, box out...and still rebound, score, and block shots.</p>

</div></p>

How much you lookin' to spend on that car?</p>

</div></p>

How bout 6 million </p>

</p>

Welcome, Bling890!! Hope you enjoy S2. If you have any questions/concerns, just ask!</p>

</p>
 
I guess -2 is better than -3</p>

Unless you meant to say post defenders?</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I guess -2 is better than -3</p>

Unless you meant to say post defenders?</p>

</div></p>

No,on da perimeter.</p>

</p>
 
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