Big Three to Big One?

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BLAZER PROPHET

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http://www.newsweek.com/id/171244


At first I was opposed to the idea of “The Big 1”. However, maybe it would be best for all. Judging strictly by sales and reliability (based on Consumers Reports & JD Power), Ford has a wide lead in cars & SUV’s and GM a small lead in full size trucks. Maybe a merger whereby “Ford” handles cars & SUV’s and what’s left of GM the full sized trucks. Also, Ford is making good progress on fuel cell technology and GM on electric. With hybrid technology now going strong, this presents a good opportunity for “The Big 3” to merge and skim the cream of the best they have to offer and in the end it may cost some jobs, but it will make them better as well as save some jobs- which is better than losing all the jobs.
 
The National Car Company of the United States?

scary.

with the government bailing them out too, then combining into one, big government run corporation?
 
Xericx said:
The National Car Company of the United States?

scary.

with the government bailing them out too, then combining into one, big government run corporation?
Click to expand...

This may be an acceptable compromise. A viable auto company still remains and it may create some accountability.
 
BLAZER PROPHET said:
This may be an acceptable compromise. A viable auto company still remains and it may create some accountability.
Click to expand...

There should be accountability already: a company that is poorly managed has management replaced by shareholders... and ultimately goes out of business. Putting unlimited governmental backing behind it won't improve the way things are run, IMO.

Ed O.
 
How about we let them go bankrupt, and Toyota, Honda and Nissan swoop in and scavenge all the best parts and assimilate them into their own companies as they see fit?

If I have three retarded monkeys and I want them to build a car, does it really make sense to dismember them so I can rebuild them into a Frankenstein monkey who may be able to do it a little better?

Or should I just kill the monkeys and feed them to a team of competent engineers and managers who have been building great cars for decades?

The Japanese companies have proven that they are actually good at what they do. Why not let them feed themselves on the tasty carcasses of our ruined industry?
 
The thing that people forget is that America won't stop needing cars just because Ford/GM/Chrysler go tits up. Sure, they built crappy cars. But they built a LOT of crappy cars. That demand isn't just going to go away.

Massive bankruptcy of the Big Three would create a huge vacuum in supply. The Japanese would have a feast of expanding market share, but they don't have the resources to get all that business right away. And even if they did, there are lots of very good reasons to want to build those vehicles in the US.

The easiest solution for them would be to buy up equipment and buildings in places like Detroit and start hiring. Taxpayers win because they don't have to finance a failing industry. Consumers win because we'd have a lot better cars. The economy wins because failure is not rewarded.

The losers would be all the labor and management that were counting on the old salaries/benefits. But those salaries and benefits are one of the main reasons that industry is so fucked up.
 
....And for those who cringe at my proposal because they want to "buy American," guess what? GM, Ford and Chrysler aren't really "American Companies" any more than Nike or Honda. The management is headquartered in America, and so is a lot of the production, but they are owned by stockholders all over the world, and they get parts from all over the world too.
 
mook said:
How about we let them go bankrupt, and Toyota, Honda and Nissan swoop in and scavenge all the best parts and assimilate them into their own companies as they see fit?

If I have three retarded monkeys and I want them to build a car, does it really make sense to dismember them so I can rebuild them into a Frankenstein monkey who may be able to do it a little better?

Or should I just kill the monkeys and feed them to a team of competent engineers and managers who have been building great cars for decades?

The Japanese companies have proven that they are actually good at what they do. Why not let them feed themselves on the tasty carcasses of our ruined industry?
Click to expand...

On the other hand, for the sake of losing as few jobs as possible, can't we take the best of the Big 3 and turn it into one good company. Ford has proven they have reliable cars and Chevy reliable trucks.

Here I am, standing up for the union and none of the dead head libs are coming to my defense.

That's criminal!
 
Hey, I am a deadhead liberal. I also happen to have driven in crappy Ford and GM cars and trucks, and have seen our auto industry kick and scream over common-sense issues like seat belts and fuel mileage regulations. In fact, it's pretty likely I lose my job if GM goes under.

But I'm tired of these guys. They make crummy cars. They take twice as long to generate new product models (compared to Honda or Toyota). They spent ridiculous sums on advertising and lobbying, and precious little on good R&D. They're big and stupid and they should die the death they deserve.

When Zenith was in trouble years ago because they were getting their lunch eaten by Sony and the other Japanese TV manufacturers, nobody tried to save them. They died, and as a result there are more good TV's out there not made by crappy American TV manufacturers.

If it's about saving American jobs, Congress should impose a "transition tariff" or some such thing that says x% of all cars sold in America must have x% of the total cost of the vehicle built in America for x number of years. That'll give the Japanese (or Koreans or Germans) the incentive to open new plants here pulled together from the shattered remnants of our old industry.

Congress should also implement a sensible health care system that allows car manufacturers to compete globally without having a huge cost disadvantage in health insurance.

Both of those ideas are pretty liberal solutions, but they keep American government out of the manufacturing plant ownership business, and they reward success.
 
have you heard the new radio spots for the new chevy malibus? pretty sad if you ask me.....kind of made some veiled jabs at buying Japanese or something...like calling them ricemobiles or something.

they're desparate
 
Xericx said:
have you heard the new radio spots for the new chevy malibus? pretty sad if you ask me.....kind of made some veiled jabs at buying Japanese or something...like calling them ricemobiles or something.

they're desparate
Click to expand...

Well, Hyundia (talk about crap cars) states how much better their cars are than Toyota.
 
Xericx said:
yeah, this was more "buy our car since its american"
Click to expand...

Goes to show how many decades behind the times they really are. Can you imagine Dell or Microsoft or Nike or Ben and Jerry's running such a campaign? Of course not, because they manufacture products to fill a customer demand.

"Buy our product because although it sucks, it was made somewhat nearby." Yeesh.
 
BLAZER PROPHET said:
Then you should be ashamed of yourself. :tsktsk:
Click to expand...

A lot of us liberals are of two minds on this issue. On one hand, we want to try to foster unions. On the other hand, we're pretty fucking frustrated with the whole goddamn industry, what with the lousy record of safety, innovation, green technology, fuel economy, etc.

I'm not so liberal that I want to keep people employed for the sake of employment. Might as well give people shovels and pay them to go dig holes in a field, only to fill them when they are done.

So keeping union jobs around isn't really enough of an incentive for me to take GM's side on this. And there are a lot of liberals out there just like us.
 
mook said:
I'm not so liberal that I want to keep people employed for the sake of employment. Might as well give people shovels and pay them to go dig holes in a field, only to fill them when they are done.
Click to expand...

Now you're a conservative!

What's this world coming to????
 
mook said:
A lot of us liberals are of two minds on this issue. On one hand, we want to try to foster unions. On the other hand, we're pretty fucking frustrated with the whole goddamn industry, what with the lousy record of safety, innovation, green technology, fuel economy, etc.
Click to expand...

There's a great Simpsons moment about this. Montgomery Burns is reminiscing about his father firing a young worker in his "atom smashing" plant in the early 1900s...the worker who's being dragged away shouts:

"You can't treat the working man this way. One day, we'll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!"

To which Burns' father responds, "The Japanese?! Those sandal-wearing goldfish tenders? Balderdash! Flimshaw!"
 
Minstrel said:
There's a great Simpsons moment about this. Montgomery Burns is reminiscing about his father firing a young worker in his "atom smashing" plant in the early 1900s...the worker who's being dragged away shouts:

"You can't treat the working man this way. One day, we'll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!"

To which Burns' father responds, "The Japanese?! Those sandal-wearing goldfish tenders? Balderdash! Flimshaw!"
Click to expand...

lol
 
BLAZER PROPHET said:
Well, Hyundia (talk about crap cars) states how much better their cars are than Toyota.
Click to expand...

That makes me said. I won't go far as to say that Hyundais are better than Toyotas but they are damn near as good. If any of the big three had made a fraction of the advancement that Hyundai has in the last 15-20 years this wouldn't be an issue.

My aunt had a 1987 Taurus, take that car and compare it to the 2006 POS Taurus company car we just finally rid ourselves of and there is very little difference.

Compare an old Hyundai Excel to a new Azera or the new Genesis and you wouldn't know they are from the same company if they didn't say Hyundai on them.

The only thing that kept Ford from having NO sales of the Taurus were the fleet sales and people like my grandmother who had good memories of old Fords. I tried to get her to drive a Camry before she bought her 2003 Taurus but she wouldn't do it. She just doesn't know what she is missing.

In a nutshell, taking the best of the big three and expecting them to compete with Honda and Toyota is a joke. I read that Ford can't even engineer a world class transmission on their own these days. That makes me sad.
 
BLAZER PROPHET said:
Well, Hyundia (talk about crap cars) states how much better their cars are than Toyota.
Click to expand...


Hyundai are actually very well built cars these days. I have driven the Sonata, Santa Fe, and the tucson and all three were very high quality and fun to drive
 
bodyman5001 said:
That makes me said. I won't go far as to say that Hyundais are better than Toyotas but they are damn near as good. If any of the big three had made a fraction of the advancement that Hyundai has in the last 15-20 years this wouldn't be an issue.
.
Click to expand...

ppilot said:
Hyundai are actually very well built cars these days. I have driven the Sonata, Santa Fe, and the tucson and all three were very high quality and fun to drive
Click to expand...

I wouldn't go as far to say that Hyundai's are "very well" built cars, but I will certainly agree that Hyundai has gone further in the last ten years to remake their image, their product, and the their presence in the U.S. over the last 10 years then GM/Ford/Chrysler has over the last 20.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Just read this article on Yahoo! and for the first time I see a bailout I can stand behind.

Key Points:
1. GM stops the product overlap reducing all their products to just FOUR brands: Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Cadillac (possibly leaving Pontiac as 'niche' or 'sports' brand)
2. CEO Rick Wagoner agrees to work for $1 a year and top executives take massive pay cuts
3. Immediately cease all corporate aircraft operations: Meaning company leaders would travel by commercial aircraft.
4. Repay the loans by 2012
 
Hyundais have 10 year, 100,000 mile warranties I believe. which is great!

I'd consider buying one on that fact alone.
 
http://usa.hyundai-motor.com/

10 YEAR / 100,000 MILES
POWERTRAIN PROTECTION Covers most engine & transaxle components.
Covers repair or replacement of powertrain components (i.e. selected Engine and Transmission/Transaxle components), originally manufactured or installed by Hyundai that are defective in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance. Coverage applies to Original Owner only effective with 2004 Model Year and newer model year vehicles. On 1999-2003 Model Years, coverage applies to Original Owner and immediate family members (i.e. wife, husband, daughter, son, stepdaughter, stepson).

Second and/or subsequent owners have powertrain components coverage under the 5 year / 60,000 mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Excludes coverage for vehicles in commercial use (i.e. taxi, route delivery, delivery service, rental, etc.).
space image
5 YEAR / 60,000 MILES
NEW VEHICLE LIMITED WARRANTY Covers nearly every new vehicle component
Covers repair or replacement of any component manufactured or originally installed by Hyundai that is defective in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance.

Following components covered for time and mileage limits indicated:
- Radio And Sound Systems (i.e. radio, cassette tape drive mechanism, and compact disc player): 3 years / 36,000 miles
- Paint: 3 years/ 36,000 miles
- Battery: 3 years / unlimited miles (100% covered 2 years / unlimited miles; after 2 years and within 3 years, 25% cost of battery and 100% labor cost covered)
- Air Conditioner Refrigerant Charge: 1 year / unlimited miles
- Adjustments: 1 year / 12,000 miles
- Wear Items: 1 year / 12,000 miles (e.g. belts, brake pads & linings, clutch linings, filters, wiper blades, bulbs, fuses)
space image
7 YEAR / UNLIMITED MILES
ANTI-PERFORATION WARRANTY Covers rust-related corrosion of body sheet metal.
Covers 7 years unlimited miles starting with 2005 Model Year (previously 5 year/100,00 Miles for 2004 and prior model years).

Covers perforation (rust hole through the body panel from inside to outside) corrosion of original Hyundai body sheet metal due to defects in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance.

Excludes surface corrosion
space image
5 YEAR / UNLIMITED MILES
24-HOUR ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE Covers towing (including accident-related), lock-out, flat tire, and battery failure.
Covers vehicle, regardless if current owner is original or subsequent owner.

Includes the following full roadside amenities:
- Towing for inoperable disablements, including accidents
- Battery jump starts
- Change flat tire
- Lock-out
- Out of gas
- Trip interruption

*DISCLAIMER: Hyundai Motor America reserves the right to limit services or reimbursement to any owner or driver when, in Hyundai Motor America's judgment, the Claims are excessive in nature, frequency or type of occurrence.

Hyundai Roadside Assistance Services are provided through Cross Country Motor Club, Inc., Medford, MA 02155, except in Alaska, California, Hawaii, Oregon, Wisconsin, and Wyoming, where services are provided through Cross Country Motor Club of California, Inc., Medford, MA 02155.

Hyundai Motor America makes no guarantee or warranty regarding Cross Country Motor Club, Inc.'s or Cross Country Motor Club of California, Inc.'s service and is not liable for the actions of its employees, or subcontractors.

EXCLUSIONS ROADSIDE ASSISTANCE is NOT A WARRANTY. For a description of the warranty covering your Hyundai, see the Hyundai New Vehicle Limited Warranty section of the Owner's Handbook. Roadside Assistance is a limited service, provided to you to help minimize any unforeseen vehicle operation inconvenience.

The Hyundai Roadside Assistance Program does not include reimbursement for any costs/charges for repairs, parts, labor, property loss or any other expense incurred as a result of accident/collision, vehicle abuse, racing, vandalism or other items not covered by the Hyundai New Vehicle Limited Warranty. Also excluded are services for snow tires, repair to studs, mounting or demounting of snow chains, and any fines, fees or taxes associated with impound towing as a result of any actual or alleged violation of any law or regulation.

Off-roading is not covered. To receive service, the vehicle must be accessible from a publicly maintained road.
space image
12 MONTH / 12,000 MILES
REPLACEMENT PARTS AND ACCESSORY LIMITED WARRANTY
Covers repair or replacement of any Hyundai Genuine Replacement Parts or Accessory supplied by Hyundai that is defective in material or factory workmanship, under normal use and maintenance.

Genuine Hyundai Parts or Accessories supplied by Hyundai and purchased from an authorized Hyundai Dealer, but not installed by an authorized Hyundai Dealer, are covered for 12 months / unlimited miles.

Accessories installed on a vehicle at the time of or prior to the vehicle's date of first use, are covered under the 5 year / 60,000 mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

Accessories installed after the vehicle's date of first use are covered for 12 months / 12,000 miles.
space image
8 YEAR / 80,000 MILES
FEDERAL EMISSION AND PERFORMANCE WARRANTY
Covers repair or replacement of the following original Hyundai major emissions control components that cause the vehicle to fail to conform to an applicable EPA approved Inspection/Maintenance Program:

1) Catalytic Converter
2) Engine Control Module
3) Onboard Emissions Diagnostic Device (OBDII)

Other EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) emissions warranty parts are covered under the 5 years / 60,000 mile New Vehicle Limited Warranty.
space image
7 YEAR / 70,000 MILES
CALIFORNIA EMISSION CONTROL SYSTEM WARRANTY


That's just fucking great.
 
Good luck. As a long time claims adjustor, the stories I can tell you about Hyundai and their warranty.

There's a sucker born every minute.
 
DONT IGNORE MY POST! lol

Just read this article on Yahoo! and for the first time I see a bailout I can stand behind.

Key Points:
1. GM stops the product overlap reducing all their products to just FOUR brands: Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Cadillac (possibly leaving Pontiac as 'niche' or 'sports' brand)
2. CEO Rick Wagoner agrees to work for $1 a year and top executives take massive pay cuts
3. Immediately cease all corporate aircraft operations: Meaning company leaders would travel by commercial aircraft.
4. Repay the loans by 2012
 
Nate4Prez said:
DONT IGNORE MY POST! lol

Just read this article on Yahoo! and for the first time I see a bailout I can stand behind.

Key Points:
1. GM stops the product overlap reducing all their products to just FOUR brands: Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Cadillac (possibly leaving Pontiac as 'niche' or 'sports' brand)
2. CEO Rick Wagoner agrees to work for $1 a year and top executives take massive pay cuts
3. Immediately cease all corporate aircraft operations: Meaning company leaders would travel by commercial aircraft.
4. Repay the loans by 2012
Click to expand...

Nope. Let them work it on their own. No government bailouts!
 
Nate4Prez said:
DONT IGNORE MY POST! lol

Just read this article on Yahoo! and for the first time I see a bailout I can stand behind.

Key Points:
1. GM stops the product overlap reducing all their products to just FOUR brands: Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, Cadillac (possibly leaving Pontiac as 'niche' or 'sports' brand)
2. CEO Rick Wagoner agrees to work for $1 a year and top executives take massive pay cuts
3. Immediately cease all corporate aircraft operations: Meaning company leaders would travel by commercial aircraft.
4. Repay the loans by 2012
Click to expand...

#1 shows just how screwed up they are. How many brands does Honda have? Two: Honda and Acura. Toyota? 2. Nissan? 2. Why? Because it makes marketing and manufacturing simpler and cheaper. You have "rich guy vehicles" and "vehicles for everybody else." I'm supposed to be impressed that GM can whittle it down to four? Yeesh.

#2 and #3 are really irrelevant PR moves. I have no confidence that they will cause GM to be run intelligently. The fact that they took this long to come up with these obvious PR moves (and only after being humiliated on capitol hill) is one more demonstration of how incompetent that management is.

#4 immediately makes me ask, "Repay the loans by 2012 or else what?" We loan them even more money to push them along until 2014, when they really better repay those loans?

Nothing here sounds like a better plan than, "Let them die and have smart companies pick over the carcasses."

If you were responsible for making sure Americans had a thriving car manufacturing industry that produced quality, innovative vehicles, who would you choose to manage it:
A. GM and the US Congress
B. Honda, Toyota and Nissan.

It's not a tough question.
 
First - GM and Ford have been making pretty reliable cars for quite some time now.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2008115

Second - Toyota has 3 brands, not two - Toyota, Lexus and Scion. Of course they also own a lot of stock in Subaru and in their home market they also have part ownership of Daihatsu and if memory serves - they also have an exclusive brand called "Prince" there (or maybe it is Nissan, can't really remember).

I do not disagree that GM really needs to go down to 3 brands - Chevrolet, Cadillac and maybe a small sporty one - they can call it Pontiac or whatever they want.

Three - the Chevy Volt program is actually very inspiring and takes the next logical step from the Hybrids we have seen from Toyota and Honda - so there is some innovation happening there.

The problems GM had are not creating pretty good product (which they had this decade) or selling it - it is making money on said product sold - and the issue there is not just poor management and a dealership network that is too big - it is also the additional cost they have over Toyota/Honda and most other non-US manufacturers - and that they have the UAW and CAW contracts that add around $2K price per car. They need to get big changes in these contracts if they have any chance of being competitive.
 
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