Billups is overrated (by Marc Stein)

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KingSpeed

KingSpeed

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http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-081220-21

MVP of the West? Please. Yes, they started 1-3 without him, but that might've just been a slow start. We had a slow start too. The Nuggs were 16-11 at this point last season without Billups. They're only one game better this season. With Denver's three game losing streak and the fact that the Blazers and Nuggets have the exact same record, then Brandon Roy should 100% be ahead of Billups in this conversation. Also- Billups has a 21 ppg scorer at his side. Brandon does not. If the Blazers split, Brandon should be ranked higher. If the Blazers win both, Brandon should be a serious MVP candidate for not just the West but the entire league thus far.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.
 
Billups has been playing GREAT. I have no problem with him being named the MVP of the western conference so far. Roy has been great too and I'm sure he is in the discussion.
 
KingSpeed, I'm convinced that all you do is look at stats and base your arguments around them. That's not always bad, but stats tend to hide important factors.
 
Billups is averaging 17.7 ppg, 6.9 apg, and 2.4 rpg And he has help from Melo to make him look good. Brandon is averaging 23.4 ppg, 5.2 apg, 4.6 rpg and shoots a much better percentage than Chauncey. Brandon's Effeciency Rating is 3 points ahead of Chauncey and both teams have the exact same record but Portland has played more road games. Add in Roy's game winning shots against Minnesota and Houston and his 52 point game vs Phoenix and Brandon is head and shoulders above Chauncey. It's not even close.
 
B-Roy said:
KingSpeed, I'm convinced that all you do is look at stats and base your arguments around them. That's not always bad, but stats tend to hide important factors.
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Yes, I agree, it's true, but when the stats are MUCH better and the two teams have the exact same record.....
 
No.

Without Chauncey, the Nuggets were headed for the lottery. You had AI + Melo who would just shoot the ball and play no defense. Marcus Camby is gone for a second round pick and the Nuggets were stuck in the big West without a quality big. They were done.

Then Chauncey Billups came along, someone I thought was overrated from the get go, and he completely turned the team around. He made all the idiots on the team work together and out of that, they produced wins. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they went to the Finals. I can't believe Chauncey is legitimately this good.
 
KingSpeed said:
Billups is averaging 17.7 ppg, 6.9 apg, and 2.4 rpg And he has help from Melo to make him look good. Brandon is averaging 23.4 ppg, 5.2 apg, 4.6 rpg and shoots a much better percentage than Chauncey. Brandon's Effeciency Rating is 3 points ahead of Chauncey and both teams have the exact same record but Portland has played more road games. Add in Roy's game winning shots against Minnesota and Houston and his 52 point game vs Phoenix and Brandon is head and shoulders above Chauncey. It's not even close.
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Does he shoot a MUCH better percentage? Chauncey does have a higher TS%
 
MVP of the West? Please. Yes, they started 1-3 without him, but that might've just been a slow start.
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Key word is might. It's more probable that this was due to the loss of Camby and AI/Melo not working.

The Nuggs were 16-11 at this point last season without Billups. They're only one game better this season.
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Have you checked their schedule? I haven't, but that could be a big part of it. They've played some great teams so far. They've lost to the Cavaliers twice. (They beat the Celtics though) Plus, the subtraction of Camby also hurt their team.

With Denver's three game losing streak and the fact that the Blazers and Nuggets have the exact same record, then Brandon Roy should 100% be ahead of Billups in this conversation. Also- Billups has a 21 ppg scorer at his side. Brandon does not. If the Blazers split, Brandon should be ranked higher. If the Blazers win both, Brandon should be a serious MVP candidate for not just the West but the entire league thus far.
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Brandon has Aldridge and very good depth on his side. Billups has Melo, Nene...........and that's basically it. You could argue that their supporting casts are equal. Plus, Billups has brought so much leadership and defense to the team. Their image is completely changed with the addition of Billups. They're still high scoring, but can at least stay in the middle of the pack on defense instead of near the bottom. If you ask me, or just about anyone, the Nuggets are a much better team with Billups.

I have no problem with Billups being the MVP of the west insofar. Roy has been playing out of his mind, and if he can keep it up, he might steal that title away from Billups.

I don't know why you let little tidbits like this bother you.
 
adisodes said:
No.

Without Chauncey, the Nuggets were headed for the lottery. You had AI + Melo who would just shoot the ball and play no defense. Marcus Camby is gone for a second round pick and the Nuggets were stuck in the big West without a quality big. They were done.

Then Chauncey Billups came along, someone I thought was overrated from the get go, and he completely turned the team around. He made all the idiots on the team work together and out of that, they produced wins. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they went to the Finals. I can't believe Chauncey is legitimately this good.
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QFT.

I've watched several Denver games and anybody who tries to undersell just how important Billups has been to the Nuggets needs to get their eyes checked. Denver with AI would be lucky to be a .500 team at this point without him.
 
But Denver won 50 games and beat out the Warriors to make the playoffs with AI/Melo.

We'll find out who is better in the next two days. This stuff should get settled on the court.
 
KingSpeed said:
But Denver won 50 games and beat out the Warriors to make the playoffs with AI/Melo.

We'll find out who is better in the next two days. This stuff should get settled on the court.
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Marcus Camby was one reason that happened.
 
Effeciency Rating:

Roy 22.33
Billups 19.08

I'm not saying Billups is bad. But Roy is better and has been playing better. And no, the Nuggets aren't going to the Finals. They might not even make the playoffs.
 
KingSpeed said:
But Denver won 50 games and beat out the Warriors to make the playoffs with AI/Melo.

We'll find out who is better in the next two days. This stuff should get settled on the court.
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Denver was in complete disarray after getting bounced in the first round against the Lakers. The fact is that they've finally got a battle tested elite floor general in Chauncey who makes everyone else around him better, not only personally performing at a high level.

As for it being settled on the court I agree, but you seem to take exception that Stein pegged Billups as "West MVP" instead of B-Roy? He's a columnist, he gets paid to express his opinions -- there is no right or wrong answer.
 
I just think people go too excited about Denver these few weeks after we lost to Boston. But weeks later, we both have the same record. We're just as good as Denver (probably better) at this point in the season. And then I read someone saying they'll make the Finals? After we have our way with them, they'll be lucky to make the playoffs.
 
The Nuggets lost very little in Camby and made a very big trade up in going from Ivy to Chauncy. They're a very legitimate second-tier team (as is Portland). The first tier being Boston, LA and Cleveland.

That said, Denver has played a very large amount of games at home so far, while Portland has played many more on the road. So I'd give Portland the advantage, right now. I don't think either Denver or Portland is a serious title contender.
 
Scary thing is, if they hadn't GIVEN Camby away, they'd be the #1 team in the west possibly!
 
B-Roy said:
He's not. Nene is playing the way he is because of Billups.
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No. Camby is overrated. He's a great rebounder yes, but he cant play man defense whatsoever. He only looks for weakside blocks. Nene is a better man defender.

And if Billups made Nene, explain to me why Nene had great games when Iverson was there, this year?
 
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"this stuff should be decided on the court"

no this stuff should be decided over the course of a season. we're 1/3 of the way through and it's way to early to be talking about MVP's. seriously kingspeed, for your own well being, don't get all wrapped into this stuff. it's a long season.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
No. Camby is overrated. He's a great rebounder yes, but he cant play man defense whatsoever. He only looks for weakside blocks. Nene is a better man defender.

And if Billups made Nene, explain to me why Nene had great games when Iverson was there, this year?
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He had two good games and two bad games, but that's a really small sample size, so I'm not going to dwell any further. Nene has not played this good in his career until now. Why? It's Billups imo.

You're also selling Camby short. No man to man whatsoever? This is simply not true. He's not the best man to man defender, but he's certainly not as bad as you make him out to be. Weak side blocks only? Why do people always say that? Most of his blocks do come from the weak side, and part of that is because it's easier to block shots from the weakside. He's a capable shot blocker anywhere. Plus, if (like you said) he can get ~4 weakside blocks per game, doesn't that still help the team tremendously?
 
KingSpeed said:
I just think people go too excited about Denver these few weeks after we lost to Boston. But weeks later, we both have the same record. We're just as good as Denver (probably better) at this point in the season. And then I read someone saying they'll make the Finals? After we have our way with them, they'll be lucky to make the playoffs.
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No. I didn't say that. I said I wouldn't be surprised if they made it to the finals. The fact of the matter is, the Western crown is the Lakers' to lose. And I'm sorry, I like the Blazers, they're one of my favorite teams and I can't say that about the Nuggets, but they have no chance of beating the Lakers in a 7 game series at this point. I think the Nuggets have a shot because of their veteran leadership (Billups). As good as Roy is and as good as he will be, and as great as the stats he is putting up are, he's not on the level with Billups yet when it comes to leadership and making his teammates better, and sustaining that leadership and improvement amongst his teammates in the playoffs when the going gets tough. You think the Pistons with AI would come back being down 2-1 to the Sixers in the 1st round? Or come back from being down 3-1 against T-Mac and the Magic? Or beat the mighty Lakers in the Finals? No. That's Chauncey Billups. As good as Roy is, he's not the Western MVP and he's not on the same level as Billups, yet.

And I am not a Billups fan. I have a newfound respect for him though since this trade.
 
adisodes said:
No. I didn't say that. I said I wouldn't be surprised if they made it to the finals. The fact of the matter is, the Western crown is the Lakers' to lose. And I'm sorry, I like the Blazers, they're one of my favorite teams and I can't say that about the Nuggets, but they have no chance of beating the Lakers in a 7 game series at this point. I think the Nuggets have a shot because of their veteran leadership (Billups). As good as Roy is and as good as he will be, and as great as the stats he is putting up are, he's not on the level with Billups yet when it comes to leadership and making his teammates better, and sustaining that leadership and improvement amongst his teammates in the playoffs when the going gets tough. You think the Pistons with AI would come back being down 2-1 to the Sixers in the 1st round? Or come back from being down 3-1 against T-Mac and the Magic? Or beat the mighty Lakers in the Finals? No. That's Chauncey Billups. As good as Roy is, he's not the Western MVP and he's not on the same level as Billups, yet.

And I am not a Billups fan. I have a newfound respect for him though since this trade.
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Prepare to get peptalked by Blazer fans on the leadership of Roy.

:ghoti:
 
I think that Billups is definitely overrated by many.

Nene averaged 15 ppg, 8.75 rpg and 2 blocks per game in the four games before Billups arrived... I think it's hard to argue that he's playing well because of Chauncey.

Billups is a good player, but Denver was a good team before he got there and they're still just a good team after he's there. I don't follow Stein's logic in giving the "award" to neither the best players (since Kobe and Paul are in the conference) nor the player that was most important to his team (since Duncan single-handedly kept the Spurs afloat).

Ed O.
 
B-Roy said:
He had two good games and two bad games, but that's a really small sample size, so I'm not going to dwell any further. Nene has not played this good in his career until now. Why? It's Billups imo.

You're also selling Camby short. No man to man whatsoever? This is simply not true. He's not the best man to man defender, but he's certainly not as bad as you make him out to be. Weak side blocks only? Why do people always say that? Most of his blocks do come from the weak side, and part of that is because it's easier to block shots from the weakside. He's a capable shot blocker anywhere. Plus, if (like you said) he can get ~4 weakside blocks per game, doesn't that still help the team tremendously?
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Nene is finally healthy. He has proven in the past when he is healthy he is a good player. He has played very similar to this without Billups (when healthy), so I don't agree there.

and your missing the point about Camby, the guy looks for weakside blocks and concentrates most of his defensive efforts in doing so. He is a horrible man to man defender. A lot of people thought the Nuggets defense would be destroyed by Camby leaving, is that the case? Not even close.
 
B-Roy said:
Prepare to get peptalked by Blazer fans on the leadership of Roy.

:ghoti:
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The fact of the matter is Roy hasn't proven anything yet. Just because a player has leadership qualities during the regular season, doesn't mean it translates to leadership when it counts -- in the playoffs. And that's what Billups brings to the table. Yes, Nene was putting up great numbers prior to his arrival, but great leaders (the types of players that make teams better) positively benefits his teammates because of intangibles which aren't on stat sheets. When Jason Kidd took over Jersey in '01, did any of his supporting cast have drastically improved stats? No. But the Nets were able to work together collectively, and a roster that won 26 games the years before doubled their amount of wins and made it all the way to the finals. That's what Billups has been doing so far in Denver. He has taken the tremendous talent that was going to waste with AI and brought leadership and wins to Denver at a time when the playoffs might have been out of reach for them without Camby in the packed West. Which I think it was.
 
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