BLASPHEMY! What about Roy for CP3?

[Idog1976]

You just killed your own argument...

Darko didn't get max, he didn't even get close. He didn't get it coming off his rookie contract, and he didn't get it this offseason either. Neither did Channing.

If you think size automatically gives you close to the max, you should really reevaluate where your head is at.

Actually I killed you argument for why NOH wants him. Unless he's a glorified expiring they lose either way. He blows up and they can't afford him, he's injured again he's worthless. Roy is as appealing or more so.

My point with Darko and Frye is even known quantity busts/mediocre players snake big bucks. A guy with Odens size and athleticism is the rarest commodity in the game. I'm saying if stiffs with no upside get half max then guys like oden will get near max or more.

Again since this is a stupid Roy vs oden debate where the clear answer is neither it's kinda pointless. That said. If Oden is injured he's worthless to NOH contrariwise if he blows up he's too expensive in the near future therefore NOH shouldn't want him OR Roy.

 

[Idog1976]

Joe Johnson for Chris Paul???

Deron Williams for Chris Paul???

Rudy Gay for Chris Paul???

Max Player X for Chris Paul???

Any team in the league can have Paul, apparently. All they need is a lesser player with a longer max contract.

My point with this thread is Roy makes as much sense as Oden for NOH which is to say very little. I've explained why Oden makes no sense from a potential perspective or from an injury perspective. Roy would be stuck in NOH for 5 years is the only enticement for NOH. Oden makes no sense except as an expiring any offer NOH made would be exceeded by another team with a spendthrift owner. Unless he is seen as expiring then he makes no sense to the rebuild scenario.

 

[B-Roy]

Actually I killed you argument for why NOH wants him. Unless he's a glorified expiring they lose either way. He blows up and they can't afford him, he's injured again he's worthless. Roy is as appealing or more so.

That's because in your mind, he blows up one way or another. Contrary to what you may think, "Blowing up" and "Injured for the entire season" are not the only two options. They take Oden, see how he plays out, and pay him accordingly, or not at all. Having Oden's rights allow them to do that, whereas not having Oden at all doesn't even give them that option. Who knows, by then, Shinn might not even be the owner. Either way, it's how I think the Blazers are going to handle his extension as well, assuming they keep Oden.

My point with Darko and Frye is even known quantity busts/mediocre players snake big bucks. A guy with Odens size and athleticism is the rarest commodity in the game. I'm saying if stiffs with no upside get half max then guys like oden will get near max or more.

What about a guy injured for 2 of his 3 first seasons? I would say that's more rare, no?

You were insinuating that they got close to the max. Darko got around $7 Million coming off his rookie contract and is being paid $5 Million now, Channing Frye got $7 Million last year, but he only got around $3 Million coming off his rookie contract. Neither of the two have missed the majority of their games, and In fact, I think 5-7 Million a year is a reasonable price to pay for Oden's potential, considering his injury history.

Again since this is a stupid Roy vs oden debate where the clear answer is neither it's kinda pointless. That said. If Oden is injured he's worthless to NOH contrariwise if he blows up he's too expensive in the near future therefore NOH shouldn't want him OR Roy.

The most obvious one is that Oden is cheaper this year, while Roy is already signed to his large extension.

Again, those two are not the only options. And you seem to keep ignoring why Chris Paul would want to resign or play here without Roy.

 

[Idog1976]

That's because in your mind, he blows up one way or another. Contrary to what you may think, "Blowing up" and "Injured for the entire season" are not the only two options. They take Oden, see how he plays out, and pay him accordingly, or not at all. Having Oden's rights allow them to do that, whereas not having Oden at all doesn't even give them that option. Who knows, by then, Shinn might not even be the owner. Either way, it's how I think the Blazers are going to handle his extension as well, assuming they keep Oden.


What about a guy injured for 2 of his 3 first seasons? I would say that's more rare, no?

You were insinuating that they got close to the max. Darko got around $7 Million coming off his rookie contract and is being paid $5 Million now, Channing Frye got $7 Million last year, but he only got around $3 Million coming off his rookie contract. Neither of the two have missed the majority of their games, and In fact, I think 5-7 Million a year is a reasonable price to pay for Oden's potential, considering his injury history.


The most obvious one is that Oden is cheaper this year, while Roy is already signed to his large extension.

Again, those two are not the only options. And you seem to keep ignoring why Chris Paul would want to resign or play here without Roy.

I'm saying if NOH has your opinion of Oden why would they want him? Also history has shown Oden either plays well or is injured. If NOH thinks Oden will be a middling player (your third way) why would they want him as a centerpiece or deal breaker for Paul? Answer they wouldn't. Oden is worth far more to us the NOH. Batum and expirings are a better answer. I've already posted that Bayless, Rudy, Batum, AMEC, JPEC and camby plus cash, picks, draft rights and euros for Paul, Okafor and Posey makes the most sense for both teams. If it happens I believe that is how we get Paul no Roy and No Oden.

 

[Masbee]

You just killed your own argument...

Darko didn't get max, he didn't even get close. He didn't get it coming off his rookie contract, and he didn't get it this offseason either. Neither did Channing.

If you think size automatically gives you close to the max, you should really reevaluate where your head is at.

That's not what he said. He said players that are known to be mediocre get paid pretty good yearly amounts just due to size. With Oden, if he is healthy, will demand a salary level that NO wont consider even for a second.

I have already brought this up previously - I just don't see NO wanting Oden. Folks keep putting him in trade ideas and debating if the Blazers should go as far as including Oden, etc., etc.

What evidence do we have the NO wants Oden?

What evidence do we have that NO would highly value Oden in a trade?

What arguments can be made that Oden would be good for NO?

I aruge, that sure, NO would take him in a trade. They do need a big after all, and he might work out for them. But, I don't think they would place a really high value on him.

Thus, I conclude it isn't a sensible track to try including him in deals to NO. It won't maximize value for Portland. If Batum, Bayless and cap relief is not enough to beat the other offers, I think the next step is to trade Aldridge to a team that needs a PF, for an asset that NO values, like a Top 5 pick so they have a player with years on a rookie deal. That is what NO really wants.

 

[Masbee]

What about a guy injured for 2 of his 3 first seasons? I would say that's more rare, no?

Andrew Bynum.

/End argument.

 

[B-Roy]

I'm saying if NOH has your opinion of Oden why would they want him?

What is my opinion? That Oden is going to for sure get injured? That's not my stance. I view him as largely an unknown with huge potential, risky, but could be very rewarding. It's very possible that New Orleans views him the same way.

Also history has shown Oden either plays well or is injured.

If we're just talking about Oden's history, he didn't play particularly well his second season, and he wasn't injured the entire season.

If NOH thinks Oden will be a middling player (your third way) why would they want him as a centerpiece or deal breaker for Paul? Answer they wouldn't.

There's MANY scenarios. They aren't as clear cut as you make them seem. And just going off your argument, he has good size anyways, so they'd keep for that, right?

 

[Idog1976]

That's not what he said. He said players that are known to be mediocre get paid pretty good yearly amounts just due to size. With Oden, if he is healthy, will demand a salary level that NO wont consider even for a second.

I have already brought this up previously - I just don't see NO wanting Oden. Folks keep putting him in trade ideas and debating if the Blazers should go as far as including Oden, etc., etc.

What evidence do we have the NO wants Oden?

What evidence do we have that NO would highly value Oden in a trade?

What arguments can be made that Oden would be good for NO?

I aruge, that sure, NO would take him in a trade. They do need a big after all, and he might work out for them. But, I don't think they would place a really high value on him.

Thus, I conclude it isn't a sensible track to try including him in deals to NO. It won't maximize value for Portland. If Batum, Bayless and cap relief is not enough to beat the other offers, I think the next step is to trade Aldridge to a team that needs a PF, for an asset that NO values, like a Top 5 pick so they have a player with years on a rookie deal. That is what NO really wants.

Yep, I've been trying to figure out who that third team is. GSW? Sacramento? Minnesota?

 

[B-Roy]

Andrew Bynum.

/End argument.

He wasn't injured his rookie season, he just didn't play much.

 

[Minstrel]

If we're just talking about Oden's history, he didn't play particularly well his second season, and he wasn't injured the entire season.

For what was essentially his rookie season (his first experience playing in the NBA), he played very well. He had an 18 PER (driven by high efficiency scoring and an extremely high rebound rate) with very good defense.

 

[B-Roy]

That's not what he said. He said players that are known to be mediocre get paid pretty good yearly amounts just due to size. With Oden, if he is healthy, will demand a salary level that NO wont consider even for a second.

That's because you're assuming a healthy Oden that plays well. Plus, once they shed Okafor's and Paul's salary, even IF Oden gets an upwards of 10 Million, they'd be able to afford him and stay under the cap. Would they pay him? Depends on how good Oden is.

I have already brought this up previously - I just don't see NO wanting Oden. Folks keep putting him in trade ideas and debating if the Blazers should go as far as including Oden, etc., etc.

What evidence do we have the NO wants Oden?

What evidence do we have that NO wants Batum, or Roy, or Aldridge, or Bayless, or Rudy, etc. etc.

See how easy that was?

What evidence do we have that NO would highly value Oden in a trade?

We, as fans, don't have evidence for anything, we can only make guesses. My guess is that Oden holds positive value that New Orleans would want. And FWIW, my opinion has been that NO would want both Batum and Oden.

What arguments can be made that Oden would be good for NO?

I aruge, that sure, NO would take him in a trade. They do need a big after all, and he might work out for them. But, I don't think they would place a really high value on him.

I can't argue with that.....because I'm not New Orleans.....and I don't know what they value most.

Thus, I conclude it isn't a sensible track to try including him in deals to NO. It won't maximize value for Portland. If Batum, Bayless and cap relief is not enough to beat the other offers, I think the next step is to trade Aldridge to a team that needs a PF, for an asset that NO values, like a Top 5 pick so they have a player with years on a rookie deal. That is what NO really wants.

I haven't been arguing that we should actively seek to include him in any trade. In fact, I don't think anyone is arguing that. I'd rather keep him. I'm arguing that if New Orleans does want him included, then we should include him.

 

[B-Roy]

For what was essentially his rookie season (his first experience playing in the NBA), he played very well. He had an 18 PER (driven by high efficiency scoring and an extremely high rebound rate) with very good defense.

And very foul plagued, which limited him to 21 minutes per game. I didn't say he played bad.

 

[Minstrel]

And very foul plagued, which limited him to 21 minutes per game. I didn't say he played bad.

Sure, fouls plagued both his two seasons, limiting his minutes. The lack of playing time, just like with injuries, limited his value...but I think it's pretty fair to say he played well in both seasons when on the floor. He just couldn't stay on the floor enough to be high value.

 

[B-Roy]

Sure, fouls plagued both his two seasons, limiting his minutes. The lack of playing time, just like with injuries, limited his value...but I think it's pretty fair to say he played well in both seasons when on the floor. He just couldn't stay on the floor enough to be high value.

I wouldn't disagree, but I would say his play last year certainly made his foul problems more forgivable than during his rookie season.

A pretty worthless point we're arguing anyways.

 

[Masbee]

That's because you're assuming a healthy Oden that plays well. Plus, once they shed Okafor's and Paul's salary, even IF Oden gets an upwards of 10 Million, they'd be able to afford him and stay under the cap. Would they pay him? Depends on how good Oden is.


What evidence do we have that NO wants Batum, or Roy, or Aldridge, or Bayless, or Rudy, etc. etc.

See how easy that was?

We, as fans, don't have evidence for anything, we can only make guesses. My guess is that Oden holds positive value that New Orleans would want. And FWIW, my opinion has been that NO would want both Batum and Oden.

I can't argue with that.....because I'm not New Orleans.....and I don't know what they value most.

I haven't been arguing that we should actively seek to include him in any trade. In fact, I don't think anyone is arguing that. I'd rather keep him. I'm arguing that if New Orleans does want him included, then we should include him.

I don't think you get it.

New Orleans can't pay players market rate salaries. Period.

Why else would they want to DUMP (very badly dump) Okafor. Who is actually a decent 7 footer, who is HEALTHY, who is earning close to MARKET rate (after this summers big deal anyhow) for a 7 footer that doesn't suck.

So, if they are sane, they want good players under rookie deals so they are bargains. Or, they want lottery picks. Or, they want good players that are locked into long deals at below market rates.

Also, if Paul leaves they might want to go into rebuilding mode, which means trading veterans for youth (and/or future picks) so the team can develop young players and as a huge side benefit lose lots of games and increase the value of their own pick.

Would they want Oden? Sure. Why not? Of couse they will ask for him. That is not the point. The point is they won't offer BIG value for him. They are not stupid. They know if they get Oden that odds are it doesn't end well for their franchise. Either he is injured, in which case they have paid a LOT of money in salary for nothing. Or, he stays healthy and blows up in which case he gets a MAX offer from NJ or some team next summer, and they lose him. There aren't a lot of scenarios where NO wouldn't have been better off just sticking with Okafor.

 

[B-Roy]

Would they want Oden? Sure. Why not? Of couse they will ask for him. That is not the point.

It is completely the point, and if you're going to concede that they will ask for him, what good is the rest of your argument? Even if they don't pay him after his contract is up, he's 1.) Cheaper than Okafor for the year he does play and 2.) is expiring.

 

[Idog1976]

To follow up on Masbee's points which are very similar to the ones I'm making there is one crucial point here. NOH wouldn't see him as a centerpiece or deal breaker. Therefore it's definitely not in our best interests to trade him as he would be seen at best as a sweetener. We have other sweeteners or center pieces among our assets or gettable through trades. Including Oden would be foolish and weak negotiating on our part. Trading Batum + Oden + half our team and assets starts looking to me like a foolish trade if we have championship aspirations.

If NOH sees Oden as centerpiece material there is an argument for trading him. Given our injury history as of late we should be mighty leery of wiping out our defense and depth in one go especially if we want to beat Miami. To beat Miami and LAL will require depth and size.

I'd rather go to battle with our current team then wipe out depth and defensefor Paul. We can make a better offer then most teams without including Oden. If worse comes to worse we let them keep Paul and try again at the deadline or next summer. No need to outbid ourselves when we have the leverage.

 

[Masbee]

It is completely the point, and if you're going to concede that they will ask for him, what good is the rest of your argument? Even if they don't pay him after his contract is up, he's 1.) Cheaper than Okafor for the year he does play and 2.) is expiring.

Dude, jeez, the point is that NO likely wont put BIG value on Oden. He is worth more to us than to them.

If Batum, Bayless and expirings and eating Okafor is not enough to get a deal done, there are other ways to increase the value to them.

IF NO for some very, very strange reason says they really really want Oden bad - that he is the centerpiece for what they want for Paul, then fine. They can have him. But that's it. They can't have every damn thing. What the heck is Orlando going to offer that would be so great that the Blazers would have to consider trumping with an Oden/Batum/eat Okafor deal?

And, since NO lusting after Oden as the centerpiece is silly, we go around in circles.

Blazers: How about Bayless, Williams, Babbitt & expirings for Paul and Posey?
NO: Not even close. Orlando has a better offer on the table.
Blazers: How about Batum, Bayless & expirings for Paul and Okafor?
NO: Much better, but we want Oden too.
Blazers: How about Oden and expirings for Paul and Posey?
NO: Wait, we want Batum too and you have to take Okafor.
Blazers: No, sorry, you can't have Batum AND Oden AND make us eat Okafor. That is just too much.

 

[B-Roy]

Dude, jeez, the point is that NO likely wont put BIG value on Oden. He is worth more to us than to them.

If Batum, Bayless and expirings and eating Okafor is not enough to get a deal done, there are other ways to increase the value to them.

IF NO for some very, very strange reason says they really really want Oden bad - that he is the centerpiece for what they want for Paul, then fine. They can have him. But that's it. They can't have every damn thing. What the heck is Orlando going to offer that would be so great that the Blazers would have to consider trumping with an Oden/Batum/eat Okafor deal?

And, since NO lusting after Oden as the centerpiece is silly, we go around in circles.

Blazers: How about Bayless, Williams, Babbitt & expirings for Paul and Posey?
NO: Not even close. Orlando has a better offer on the table.
Blazers: How about Batum, Bayless & expirings for Paul and Okafor?
NO: Much better, but we want Oden too.
Blazers: How about Oden and expirings for Paul and Posey?
NO: Wait, we want Batum too and you have to take Okafor.
Blazers: No, sorry, you can't have Batum AND Oden AND make us eat Okafor. That is just too much.

My stance is that if they want Batum and Oden, you give it to them. We're not going to agree here, but if you want to keep misconstruing my arguments, go ahead.

The point isn't whether or not he has BIG value, but positive value, and if that value is enough to push New Orleans to accept the deal. Which I don't know if it is, and neither do you. My opinion is that Batum+Bayless+Expirings is not enough, and it would require Oden as well.

And by the way, even if they feel Oden is a complete busto, an Oden for Posey swap saves them over $8Million over the course of two years.

 

[MadeFromDust]

The reason Paul wants to come here is to team up with Roy, so if Roy's gone he won't have any interest.

/thread

 

[STOMP]

The reason Paul wants to come here is to team up with Roy, so if Roy's gone he won't have any interest.

link? or is this just your guess?

STOMP

 

[Idog1976]

The reason Paul wants to come here is to team up with Roy, so if Roy's gone he won't have any interest.

/thread

But he doesn't have a no trade clause and given that we would likely be in the WCF every year if not in Finals with a chance to win it all I think he re-signs with us. Think about it, if we're in the Finals for two years he likely re-signs with us for the max money and more shots at a title.

Really though the entire point of this thread is trading Oden as a throw in with Batum is stupid and trading Roy is just as dumb but better for us the Batum + Oden.

 

[Masbee]

My stance is that if they want Batum and Oden, you give it to them. We're not going to agree here, but if you want to keep misconstruing my arguments, go ahead.

Ok, maybe. I would think about it. But NOT also eating Okafor's contract. See my point?

The point isn't whether or not he has BIG value, but positive value, and if that value is enough to push New Orleans to accept the deal. Which I don't know if it is, and neither do you. My opinion is that Batum+Bayless+Expirings is not enough, and it would require Oden as well.

Oh, but that IS the point.

If they want more. If they have a deal from another team that they value equally or a bit more than our non-Oden offer, the need is to increase the value of the deal. The need is NOT to just throw in Oden as the only option to increase value.

If you are at a store buying something, and it costs $120 and you give the manager a $100 dollar bill, and try to get them to accept that as full payment and they flat refuse, insisting on $120, do you dig in your wallet and pull out another $100 (Oden's value to the Blazers in this instance) and hand it to them and walk away? Or do you try to find a $20 bill or figure out how to get your $80 change back?

That to me is the issue. Show me a deal where a team that Paul would want to go to could sensibly offer to NO as much in salary savings as eating Okafor, and as interesting a combination of young talent as Batum AND Oden. Who are we competing against here? Are you bidding against yourself in a matter of speaking. "Oh my god, it's Chris Paul, I will give you anything you want - everything you want."

And by the way, even if they feel Oden is a complete busto, an Oden for Posey swap saves them over $8Million over the course of two years.

Of course they want to add Oden to the deal. Shin wants to be as rich as Paul Allen. What they want and what the best deal they will find for Paul are two different things.

 

[BGrantFan]

link? or is this just your guess?

STOMP

Paul has been quoted as saying he wouldn't want to play in Portland without Roy or Aldridge. Look up the quotes here yourself. Also, it's that poster's opinion, just like every other fucking post on this board, so it can't be "linked". "Link?" isn't how to debate opinions, unless you're being snarky, but that's been overplayed as snark on this board, so it's not at all original.

 

[Idog1976]

Link? Or is that an opinion?

Lol ^^^

 

[BGrantFan]

Lol ^^^

Yes, that was me being snarky, as I explained in another post in this thread. Since I did it, it is no longer original.

 

[Minstrel]

Yes, that was me being snarky, as I explained in another post in this thread. Since I did it, it is no longer original.

You have a snarky smile on your face in your avatar photo.

 

[BGrantFan]

You have a snarky smile on your face in your avatar photo.

Hey, Dert Clod made #12 on Canzano's 25 Most Influential People in Oregon Sports that was published in today's paper.

Dirt Chode is a King maker!

 

[B-Roy]

Ok, maybe. I would think about it. But NOT also eating Okafor's contract. See my point?

Honestly, If Oden is going out in the deal, I'd be happy to take back Okafor because he'd be a useful player that fills a need.

If they want more. If they have a deal from another team that they value equally or a bit more than our non-Oden offer, the need is to increase the value of the deal. The need is NOT to just throw in Oden as the only option to increase value.

I never said it was the only option... Of course I don't know what offers NO has on the table and which ones they would take. All I'm saying is if it came down to it, I'd give up Oden in the deal.

If you are at a store buying something, and it costs $120 and you give the manager a $100 dollar bill, and try to get them to accept that as full payment and they flat refuse, insisting on $120, do you dig in your wallet and pull out another $100 (Oden's value to the Blazers in this instance) and hand it to them and walk away? Or do you try to find a $20 bill or figure out how to get your $80 change back?

For the love of god I'm not insisting that the Blazers shouldn't look at other options and/or insert Oden in the deal at all costs. In a hypothetical situation where our only option is a deal involving both Oden and Batum, I would pull the trigger. That is where our opinions differ.

 

[BGrantFan]

In a hypothetical situation where our only option is a deal involving both Oden and Batum, I would pull the trigger. That is where our opinions differ.

Link? I thought there was only one correct opinion in the Chris Paul Situation.