Blazers-Memphis Game Thread

[MARIS61]

Hello guys,

I just created an account because I was notified that the password to my stream was leaked here.

I'd like to mention that the password was private, and not to be distributed except by my own invitation only. It is mentioned *very often* in the channel that the password is not to be shared publicly.

Thanks for your interests, and I hope you respect my wishes in the future.

I got it from O-live. Nobody said it was TOP SECRET. Why be selfish?

Nice quality stream BTW.

 

[Buzz Killington]

It was a great stream, thanks, I got in before it got private! Hopefully I can get in tomorrow too per the usual arrangements. ( )

 

[alex42083]

From Jason Quick:
http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2009/11/trail_blazers_93_memphis_79_pi.html

I think it's a good thing as well. Certainly I hope G.O. stays aggressive and isn't all passive out there, but any way to keep him in the game and be conscious of his foul problem... it's worth a shot.

 

[rocketeer]

I'm pretty sure most posters that says play him until he fouls out means at ends of games when he is pulled with 5 fouls why not let him play until he fouls out. Kind of misleading taking it out of context like that PapaG.

i'm saying let him play until 3 in the 1st quarter, 4 in the 2nd, 5 in the 3rd. other than that, let him play his normal minutes. there are times when it makes sense to pull him earlier than that, but as a general rule i think he should be allowed to play through it.

 

[rocketeer]

I think it's a good thing. I want Oden conscious of his fouls. He needs to play smart. Once he has mastered this foul problem, then it will become less of an issue. Right now, however, the most important thing is keeping him on the floor. I'd rather he play a little tentative on the defensive end and play, rather than be super aggressive and sit.

i don't see it as being a good thing. why sit him for fouls he might potentially commit? if he's ever to "master his foul problem", he's going to have to learn to play with fouls at times.

 

[Tince]

i don't see it as being a good thing. why sit him for fouls he might potentially commit? if he's ever to "master his foul problem", he's going to have to learn to play with fouls at times.

He was given a year to play with fouls and that didn't work. If Nate limits him to 2 fouls for the first half, there is a chance he can play with a little more freedom in the 2nd half.

To me, it's clear that Greg needs to figure out how to avoid the ticky-tact fouls. If him knowing he'll be taken out for the rest of the half is what it takes to get him to figure it out, then great. If not, we'll have to try plan D.

 

[Tince]

i'm saying let him play until 3 in the 1st quarter, 4 in the 2nd, 5 in the 3rd. other than that, let him play his normal minutes. there are times when it makes sense to pull him earlier than that, but as a general rule i think he should be allowed to play through it.

And what happens if Joel goes down in the 2nd quarter? Or we need him down the stretch to play defense, but he has 5 fouls with 4 minutes remaining and he can't be aggressive.

Where I disagree with Nate is his philosophy ofL "you have 6 fouls each game, you can't take them home with you." Burning up fouls, getting your team in the bonus early, and giving the opposing team free throws isn't something that will help us win.

 

[rocketeer]

He was given a year to play with fouls and that didn't work. If Nate limits him to 2 fouls for the first half, there is a chance he can play with a little more freedom in the 2nd half.

he was? it seemed to me like he was pulled whenever he had fouls last year as well.

To me, it's clear that Greg needs to figure out how to avoid the ticky-tact fouls. If him knowing he'll be taken out for the rest of the half is what it takes to get him to figure it out, then great. If not, we'll have to try plan D.

him sitting out half the game to keep him from getting fouls really is no different than him sitting out half the game because he actually got fouls. the only difference is that if he plays, he might not actually pick up the fouls which could get him more minutes.

And what happens if Joel goes down in the 2nd quarter? Or we need him down the stretch to play defense, but he has 5 fouls with 4 minutes remaining and he can't be aggressive.

if joel goes down, joel goes down. it's hard to plan injuries. it's not like that blazers don't have bodies they can put on the court in that situation.

and telling oden he has one foul per quarter isn't going to take away his aggressiveness? seems like that could potentially keep him from being aggressive at all because he'd be too worried about picking up fouls that would send him to the bench.

Where I disagree with Nate is his philosophy ofL "you have 6 fouls each game, you can't take them home with you." Burning up fouls, getting your team in the bonus early, and giving the opposing team free throws isn't something that will help us win.

right. fouls are bad. the other team being in the bonus is bad. but having one of your best players sitting on the bench is also bad. so there has to be a balance there. i personally think that oden should be given a chance to play through them. nate obviously disagrees. it's not the end of the world and i don't think nate should be fired over it, i just disagree with his decision.

 

[MrJayremmie]

Really ugly game, especially in the first half. I was also really disappointed with Oden's IQ when he picked up those 2 fouls... but ended up being really pleased with him in the 2nd half.

We are starting to play better in general, and we are 3-0 with that new lineup.

I also wonder why we go away from LMA so often when he starts hot.

As for Greg, if he can limit his fouls, he has a chance to have a special year this year. As for him only getting 1 foul per quarter, I'm not sure I agree with that. If it changes his mentality to be more cautious and not foul, then I think it is good. But I think we need Greg out there as much as possible. I'm in favor of letting him play through foul problems. When he gets three, you can pull him until half time. If he gets five, you can pull him until early-mid 4th quarter. Other than that, let the kid play.

Anyway, Go Blazers!

 

[Minstrel]

Where I disagree with Nate is his philosophy ofL "you have 6 fouls each game, you can't take them home with you." Burning up fouls, getting your team in the bonus early, and giving the opposing team free throws isn't something that will help us win.

It isn't as if Oden can cause 20 fouls. He's capped at 6. The difference between 4-5 fouls and 6 from Oden isn't going to amount to very much in terms of extra free throws for the opposition. The difference between Oden playing 22 minutes and 32 minutes will amount to a lot.

I'd never heard that quote from McMillan, but I fully agree with it. His actions, though, didn't seem consistent with that quote. I pretty much agree with rocketeer. Give him 3 fouls in the first quarter, and then limit him to 1 per quarter. If he ends up fouling out in the fourth quarter, so be it...at least he played every minute possible. If he's managed more than that, then he ends up leaving minutes on the table that he could have played.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I got it from O-live. Nobody said it was TOP SECRET. Why be selfish?

Nice quality stream BTW.

Why be selfish? Because he doesn't want it shut down ... way to go there.

 

[Tince]

It isn't as if Oden can cause 20 fouls. He's capped at 6. The difference between 4-5 fouls and 6 from Oden isn't going to amount to very much in terms of extra free throws for the opposition. The difference between Oden playing 22 minutes and 32 minutes will amount to a lot.

I'd never heard that quote from McMillan, but I fully agree with it. His actions, though, didn't seem consistent with that quote. I pretty much agree with rocketeer. Give him 3 fouls in the first quarter, and then limit him to 1 per quarter. If he ends up fouling out in the fourth quarter, so be it...at least he played every minute possible. If he's managed more than that, then he ends up leaving minutes on the table that he could have played.

That strategy really limits your options when it comes to rotation in the 2nd half. It would be a shame to need a guy like Greg Oden near the end of the game (or overtime), but he fouled out with 10 minutes left in the 4th quarter because we wanted to let him get in a rhythm in the 1st quarter.

I think Greg's power game is more effective when he's fresh and opposing centers are tried in the 2nd half (see last night).

 

[Minstrel]

That strategy really limits your options when it comes to rotation in the 2nd half. It would be a shame to need a guy like Greg Oden near the end of the game (or overtime), but he fouled out with 10 minutes left in the 4th quarter because we wanted to let him get in a rhythm in the 1st quarter.

That implies some minutes matter than others. I disagree with that. It's just as much a shame not to have Oden in the first or second quarter, when we need him, as to not have him in the fourth quarter or overtime, when we need him. The points, rebounds and defense matter the same all throughout the game (except garbage time).

I think it's more important to get as many minutes per game out of him, than to artificially limit them in an effort to have him on the floor at specific times in the game.

As I said, I'm not looking to take this to an extreme and willing to let him foul out in the first half if he has a tough start with fouls. I agree with rocketeer's proposal of letting him play normally until he has 3 fouls, and then allowing him only 4 total fouls by halftime and 5 total fouls by the end of the third quarter. That ensures that he'll make it to the fourth quarter and also makes it likely that he'll play close to as many minutes as 6 fouls will allows.

I think Greg's power game is more effective when he's fresh and opposing centers are tried in the 2nd half (see last night).

I'm sure that's true for everyone. If Roy didn't play the first half, I'd bet he'd be even more effective slashing past tired perimeter defenders in the second half. But that marginal gain in second-half effectiveness isn't worth losing his production in the first half. I feel the same way about Oden or pretty much any valuable, important player.

 

[STOMP]

That implies some minutes matter than others. I disagree with that.

you don't think that there is something to the commonly held theory that the officials try to keep the games close? I've subscribed to that one for decades now and Donaghy confirmed it. I'd rather have my best players available for winning time.

STOMP

 

[mook]

you don't think that there is something to the commonly held theory that the officials try to keep the games close? I've subscribed to that one for decades now and Donaghy confirmed it. I'd rather have my best players available for winning time.

STOMP

There's that, and there's also the issue that Oden is a young and growing talent. If we were renting Oden for a year and didn't care how he eventually developed then maybe you follow Minstrel/rocketeer's path.

But maybe Nate is thinking beyond one season. Maybe this year Nate is trying to break him of the habit of fouling so that for the next decade we never have to worry about it again. Get him to take each chippy first quarter foul seriously in a boring regular season game against Memphis, and you won't have to worry about his foul situation in the final minutes of a conference finals game against the Lakers somewhere down the road.

An analogy is shooting shotguns. When I was a kid, my dad made me shoot a single shot shotgun for my entire first season. It was infuriating as hell, because my older brothers got off far more shots and were much more successful hunters. But it taught me to take every shot seriously. I'd only get the one shot in, so I had to make it count. I'm probably a much more accurate shooter today, 23 years removed, because of the discipline my dad forced on me in that first season.

If it costs us some wins along the way for Oden to learn the discipline of avoiding fouls, well, it's all part of the sizable investment Portland is putting in his future.

 

[rocketeer]

There's that, and there's also the issue that Oden is a young and growing talent. If we were renting Oden for a year and didn't care how he eventually developed then maybe you follow Minstrel/rocketeer's path.

But maybe Nate is thinking beyond one season. Maybe this year Nate is trying to break him of the habit of fouling so that for the next decade we never have to worry about it again. Get him to take each chippy first quarter foul seriously in a boring regular season game against Memphis, and you won't have to worry about his foul situation in the final minutes of a conference finals game against the Lakers somewhere down the road.

at the same time, isn't learning to play through fouls an important lesson for the future as well? if he picks up two quick fouls in a conference finals game against the lakers, he's not going to the bench for the rest of the half, is he? if not, him having experience playing through foul trouble seems like it would help.

 

[Minstrel]

you don't think that there is something to the commonly held theory that the officials try to keep the games close? I've subscribed to that one for decades now and Donaghy confirmed it. I'd rather have my best players available for winning time.

Not really, since I've seen plenty of games where one team breaks well ahead early and cruises to victory or just keeps piling on.

 

[Minstrel]

Maybe this year Nate is trying to break him of the habit of fouling so that for the next decade we never have to worry about it again. Get him to take each chippy first quarter foul seriously in a boring regular season game against Memphis, and you won't have to worry about his foul situation in the final minutes of a conference finals game against the Lakers somewhere down the road.

That seems like a stretch to me. When he has a four foul quota for the first half and five for the first three quarters, he still can't foul indiscriminately without hitting pre-defined limits.

Both the idea rocketeer had and McMillan's have the foul quota for periods of time...the difference is that rocketeer's plan front-loads the fouls (allows Oden to use more early) and McMillan's back-loads them (leaves Oden more fouls late).

To me, the main result of this difference is that McMillan's plan makes it more likely that Oden will finish the game with "fouls to give" and, thus, minutes unplayed. I don't think that instilling foul discipline is a difference between the two. I think both force Oden to be cognizant of fouls.

 

[STOMP]

Not really, since I've seen plenty of games where one team breaks well ahead early and cruises to victory or just keeps piling on.

I've seen plenty of games like that, wild comebacks too, but of course like you I've literally watched thousands of games. The norm is for NBA games to be very close at the end, especially playoff games... so thats when I want my best players available.

STOMP