Boehner Dealt Bitter Defeat

[BLAZER PROPHET]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/29/us/politics/29fiscal.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw

In another article, it stated almost all the dissent from within the Republican party comes from the Tea Party. In other words, the GOP is fractured and for this issue the House has 3 parties and neither side able (willing?) to compromise.

This is getting to be quite a mess.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

if the tea pouchers become an actual 3rd party, what would their animal be? (dems donkeys, pubs elephants, tea dudes ???) maybe a magestic bald eagle with hair plugs

 

[maxiep]

It's the same problem Gingrich ran into in 1994. The people that came to Congress in that class actually meant what they campaigned on.

I'm still struggling to figure out why the responsibility to come up with a plan is solely on the shoulders of the minority party.

 

[maxiep]

Boehner is having to come up with more cuts. They'll get a vote done (probably tonight) and it will pass with 216 votes (the bare minimum). Then the House will walk away and let the Senate and President Obama deal with it.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

It's the same problem Gingrich ran into in 1994. The people that came to Congress in that class actually meant what they campaigned on.

I'm still struggling to figure out why the responsibility to come up with a plan is solely on the shoulders of the minority party.

In the House I'm trying to figure out just who the minority party is. I was very perplexed as to how little Boehner could rally them. Clearly, to them, he's not their leader.

 

[Denny Crane]

So who are these guys threatening to lower our bond ratings? How'd they do rating those mortgage derivatives?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Boehner is having to come up with more cuts. They'll get a vote done (probably tonight) and it will pass with 216 votes (the bare minimum). Then the House will walk away and let the Senate and President Obama deal with it.

I think it's important to come up with something and then let the Senate and President say 'yes' or 'no'. It turns the tables a bit. Good politics. Good DC drama.

 

[maxiep]

In the House I'm trying to figure out just who the minority party is. I was very perplexed as to how little Boehner could rally them. Clearly, to them, he's not their leader.

We weren't meant to be a Parliamentary system. Just because you have an R or a D next to your name doesn't mean you have to buy everything your party decides it stands for.

 

[maxiep]

I was wrong. There won't be a vote tonight.

 

[jlprk]

if the tea pouchers become an actual 3rd party, what would their animal be? (dems donkeys, pubs elephants, tea dudes ???) maybe a magestic bald eagle with hair plugs

Now that we have an unleadable European-style 3 party system, the logo should be a chubby polished English teapot. It should be depicted tipped and teaing all over our food on the table.

 

[Sug]

if the tea pouchers become an actual 3rd party, what would their animal be? (dems donkeys, pubs elephants, tea dudes ???) maybe a magestic bald eagle with hair plugs

 

[barfo]

So who are these guys threatening to lower our bond ratings? How'd they do rating those mortgage derivatives?

Yeah, that's a good argument. I'm sure no one will pay any attention to the downgrade since they didn't rate the mortgage derivatives correctly.

As long as we are fantasizing, why not imagine that Congress behaves like adults and works together to make good decisions?

barfo

 

[barfo]

That's good, but it needs some flecks of foam around the mouth.

barfo

 

[Shooter]

I hope we default. Let it come. Let's start balancing the federal budget every year, which is the only thing that makes any sense. Let's not spend money that we don't have. Let's start making big cuts in spending. Let's restore sanity to the whole process.

 

[barfo]

I hope we default. Let it come. Let's start balancing the federal budget every year, which is the only thing that makes any sense. Let's not spend money that we don't have. Let's start making big cuts in spending. Let's restore sanity to the whole process.

To restore sanity, we must act insanely! Yes!

barfo

 

[maxiep]

So who are these guys threatening to lower our bond ratings? How'd they do rating those mortgage derivatives?

The rating agencies definitely fucked up MBS ratings. Of course, there was so much lying on those applications and finance guys aren't real estate guys (although they think they understand the industry). As well, they simply didn't understand the math. Bond math is rarely fun and quite difficult. These instruments were constructed by mathematics and physics Ph.D's. I worked on the commercial side, which was by comparison much more simple. You could step back and analyze the actual real estate. It simply wasn't possible with the residential product. Finally, we confronted a six sigma event in 2008 that few people saw.

All of that being said, understanding the debt problem the country faces is much simpler. The issue with the rating agencies has little to do with the short term debt ceiling, it has to do with our long term debt problem.

Of course, the US could just say "fuck it" and ignore the ratings agencies. We could decide to set the market. If we sell our bonds, great. If not, then we have to tighten our belts.

 

[maxiep]

I hope we default. Let it come. Let's start balancing the federal budget every year, which is the only thing that makes any sense. Let's not spend money that we don't have. Let's start making big cuts in spending. Let's restore sanity to the whole process.

We won't default. There's enough money to pay our debts. There's enough money to pay SS. What will happen is a government shutdown. At that point, the Obama Administration will shut down the most visible parts of the government to try to force the House to give him a clean debt bill. I don't think it's 1995 anymore in terms of the mindset of the American people.

We are going to be downgraded, and that's going to wipe out any savings we gain from cutting the budget.

 

[Shooter]

To restore sanity, we must act insanely! Yes!

What's insane is spending more money than we have . . . which has brought us to this crisis.

 

[Sug]

I hope we default. Let it come. Let's start balancing the federal budget every year, which is the only thing that makes any sense. Let's not spend money that we don't have. Let's start making big cuts in spending. Let's restore sanity to the whole process.

We are actually paying bills from the past not the future with the increase, it's called debt.

 

[Denny Crane]

We are actually paying bills from the past not the future with the increase, it's called debt.

No. It's like having a $50K paycheck, $50K in credit card debt, and asking for a new credit card with $7500 more credit limit.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yeah, that's a good argument. I'm sure no one will pay any attention to the downgrade since they didn't rate the mortgage derivatives correctly.

As long as we are fantasizing, why not imagine that Congress behaves like adults and works together to make good decisions?

barfo

Why are you so concerned about a downgrade, when you've been a cheerleader for the policies that got us to this point?

 

[huevonkiller]

Why are you so concerned about a downgrade, when you've been a cheerleader for the policies that got us to this point?

True nigguh..... :O

 

[barfo]

Why are you so concerned about a downgrade, when you've been a cheerleader for the policies that got us to this point?

Because it is completely unnecessary. If we'd just passed a clean limit increase 2 months ago, no downgrade.

And, of course, I was not a cheerleader for the policies that got us to this point. I didn't suggest that the housing and financial markets should collapse in 2008. I didn't suggest that GW Bush, or his dad, go on spending sprees when times were relatively good and thus government stimulus was unnecessary.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Because it is completely unnecessary. If we'd just passed a clean limit increase 2 months ago, no downgrade.

And, of course, I was not a cheerleader for the policies that got us to this point. I didn't suggest that the housing and financial markets should collapse in 2008. I didn't suggest that GW Bush, or his dad, go on spending sprees when times were relatively good and thus government stimulus was unnecessary.

barfo

Bill Clinton's deficit spending was about $500M a day. Bush's was about $1.5B a day. Obama's is about $5B a day. You've been cheering for the $5B a day all along. Bash the $1.5B, which is fine. At least be consistent, and at least recognize what you are cheering for.

 

[barfo]

Bill Clinton's deficit spending was about $500M a day. Bush's was about $1.5B a day. Obama's is about $5B a day. You've been cheering for the $5B a day all along. Bash the $1.5B, which is fine. At least be consistent, and at least recognize what you are cheering for.

I recognize that the economy was in very bad shape in 2008/2009, something that you have steadfastly refused to do. Different times call for different reactions.

Since you insist that banks and car companies going out of business is no big deal (and now default is no big deal) there's not much that can be said. It's like arguing with Breivik.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

I recognize that the economy was in very bad shape in 2008/2009, something that you have steadfastly refused to do. Different times call for different reactions.

Since you insist that banks and car companies going out of business is no big deal (and now default is no big deal) there's not much that can be said. It's like arguing with Breivik.

barfo

First of all, we're not going to default whether the debt ceiling is raised or not.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-28/u-s-contingency-plan-gives-bondholders-priority.html

Second, it's a big difference between saying "it's better to default with a $14T debt than later on when the debt is $24T" and "we should default." You confuse me with Shooter.

Third, the economy has been in "very bad shape" when Bush took office, when Clinton took office, when Reagan took office. The difference is those guys made lemonade out of lemons. This guy let the lemons rot, borrowed to buy more lemons, and let those rot, too.

Fourth, companies going out of business IS a big deal, but I realize that companies do fail and it's a natural part of the economy. If GM were allowed to file bankruptcy (not go out of business as you claim), they'd have come out reorganized and maybe its bondholders would be a little more inclined to put their money in play. You can't blame big business for sitting on cash when they could lose it all for nothing by the fiat of one of Obama's Czars.

Where was the bailout for Studebaker and Edsel?

 

[maxiep]

LOL @ those who think just increasing the debt would avoid a credit downgrade. The issue isn't the debt ceiling, it's the level of debt itself.

 

[Sug]

So now they want to add in the balance budget amendment which has zero chance of being ratified by the states. So why even put it in the bill?

 

[maxiep]

So now they want to add in the balance budget amendment which has zero chance of being ratified by the states. So why even put it in the bill?

Putting the BBA in the bill defines where the GOP stands on the issue. Why should the Democrats fear a requirement just for a simple vote on the BBA?

If the Boehner bill passes, the Republicans will have passed their compromise. The Democrats will then be in a position of rejecting the GOP compromise. IMO, at that point, it's on them.

Edit based on further information: Boehner's updated bill includes a second debt limit increase only after a BBA passes both houses of Congress and gets sent to the States. Wonderful. What does it take for an amendment to become part of the Constitution? Is it 2/3? So, 34 states?

 

[maxiep]

From Boehner's office:

The bill currently has a two-step process for raising the debt ceiling.

As currently written, before POTUS can request second tranche of increased debt authority, Select Committee must produce spending cuts larger than the debt hike.

Change to the bill would specify that before POTUS can request second tranche of debt authority, Select Committee must produce spending cuts larger than the hike AND a Balanced Budget Amendment must be sent to the states.

They're daring the Senate to reject the bill, and to put McCaskill, both Nelsons and Manchin in a tough spot with their upcoming reelections. In other words, the House GOP is making the Democrats pay a political price for trying to put blame on the Republicans.