Brigitte Gabriel = Fantastic!!!!

[Further]

Well Blazer fans won't kill, but soccer fans have been extremists. In fact, England have a lot of death related fighting of rival fans. I remember in Brazil, there was a ref that was tore from limb from limb, then the head was put on a stick because he stabbed a player.

And politics have killed a ton of people. Look no further than the communist party or nazism.

A few knuckle hood soccer fans vs religion, come on, perhaps 1 to 10,000 over the past few decades, and that's being very generous. As far as politics, yep, and that's going to happen with or without religion. But without religion, those warmongering politicians will have more difficulty swaying the masses by pretending they are doing it for a religious cause.

I'm not saying religion is to blame for all killing or anything close to that. I'm just saying, as this world moves away from religion (not even necessarily god, just organized religion) it will become harder to sway large groups of people to kill.

 

[MarAzul]

A few knuckle hood soccer fans vs religion, come on, perhaps 1 to 10,000 over the past few decades, and that's being very generous. As far as politics, yep, and that's going to happen with or without religion. But without religion, those warmongering politicians will have more difficulty swaying the masses by pretending they are doing it for a religious cause.

I'm not saying religion is to blame for all killing or anything close to that. I'm just saying, as this world moves away from religion (not even necessarily god, just organized religion) it will become harder to sway large groups of people to kill.

It doesn't make sense to be so down on religion. There is only one religion spawning the kill the Infidel mind set. Aim your shots, the spray and pray approach often misses the mark.

 

[magnifier661]

A few knuckle hood soccer fans vs religion, come on, perhaps 1 to 10,000 over the past few decades, and that's being very generous. As far as politics, yep, and that's going to happen with or without religion. But without religion, those warmongering politicians will have more difficulty swaying the masses by pretending they are doing it for a religious cause.

I'm not saying religion is to blame for all killing or anything close to that. I'm just saying, as this world moves away from religion (not even necessarily god, just organized religion) it will become harder to sway large groups of people to kill.

But that's what I'm agreeing on. A small group of knuckleheads ruin the name of the belief. If Brigitte is right and the extremists are 25%, there is still billions of peaceful Muslims.

 

[Further]

It doesn't make sense to be so down on religion. There is only one religion spawning the kill the Infidel mind set. Aim your shots, the spray and pray approach often misses the mark.

The violent Muslins may be plentiful than their counterparts in other religions, but they still exist in most religions (Quaker and a small handful of super-peace loving religions aside). But one of the biggest problems is that religions continue to breed the us vs them mentality. And even if one side is less extremist than the other, it still precipitates a one-upping atmosphere which will often end in violence.

 

[Further]

But that's what I'm agreeing on. A small group of knuckleheads ruin the name of the belief. If Brigitte is right and the extremists are 25%, there is still billions of peaceful Muslims.

And hundreds of millions of Muslims whom view violence as an appropriate course of action. Until those numbers dwindle to the infinitesimal numbers of deadly soccer fans, then I will continue to lay some blame on the concept of organized religion.

 

[MarAzul]

The violent Muslins may be plentiful than their counterparts in other religions, but they still exist in most religions (Quaker and a small handful of super-peace loving religions aside). But one of the biggest problems is that religions continue to breed the us vs them mentality. And even if one side is less extremist than the other, it still precipitates a one-upping atmosphere which will often end in violence.

You are spraying again. The teachings of Jesus, Buddha, do not contain suggestions or commands of intolerance and despicable acts to perform on the non believer. While there were no prophets of Hinduism, I don't think you will find any texts written by the sages that teach intolerance and violence acts to perform.

You will find within the Koran many Suras teaching intolerance and many actions to perform on the non believer. Cutting through the veins of the neck are one specific example.

I know of no Priests in any religion that issue statement authorizing the kill of any peoples but with the exception of Islam. There are several Fatwas authorizing the killing of Americans and other Infidels. Is that religion? I think not, I think Islam stands alone and does not deserve to be called religion. It has the seeds of hate right in the main text of the basic teachings, and marks it as an entirely different thing than true the religions.

 

[barfo]

You are spraying again. The teachings of Jesus, Buddha, do not contain suggestions or commands of intolerance and despicable acts to perform on the non believer. While there were no prophets of Hinduism, I don't think you will find any texts written by the sages that teach intolerance and violence acts to perform.

You will find within the Koran many Suras teaching intolerance and many actions to perform on the non believer. Cutting through the veins of the neck are one specific example.

I know of no Priests in any religion that issue statement authorizing the kill of any peoples but with the exception of Islam. There are several Fatwas authorizing the killing of Americans and other Infidels. Is that religion? I think not, I think Islam stands alone and does not deserve to be called religion. It has the seeds of hate right in the main text of the basic teachings, and marks it as an entirely different thing than true the religions.

Crusades maybe? Agreed it was a long time ago, but is it your belief that the early popes were not true catholics? Or that the catholic church at that time was not a true religion?

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

Crusades maybe? Agreed it was a long time ago, but is it your belief that the early popes were not true catholics? Or that the catholic church at that time was not a true religion?

barfo

The Catholic Church of that day does not exist today.

 

[Further]

You are spraying again. The teachings of Jesus, Buddha, do not contain suggestions or commands of intolerance and despicable acts to perform on the non believer. While there were no prophets of Hinduism, I don't think you will find any texts written by the sages that teach intolerance and violence acts to perform.

I'll leave Buddhism and Hinduism out because of my lack of knowledge, but the books of Christianity most certainly contain teachings intolerance and promote violent acts. Perhaps not directed at other religions, but directed at women, homosexuals, slaves, misbehaving kids, liars, adulterers and more.

You will find within the Koran many Suras teaching intolerance and many actions to perform on the non believer. Cutting through the veins of the neck are one specific example.

Please do not think I am equating the two exactly. But just cause one promotes violence at the level of 10, doesn't mean the other doesn't at a level of 5. As barfo pointed out, the crusades are but one of many non-Muslim violent wars over religion. Granted, Islam does appear the more timely example.

I know of no Priests in any religion that issue statement authorizing the kill of any peoples but with the exception of Islam. There are several Fatwas authorizing the killing of Americans and other Infidels. Is that religion? I think not, I think Islam stands alone and does not deserve to be called religion. It has the seeds of hate right in the main text of the basic teachings, and marks it as an entirely different thing than true the religions.

Recently. That's a big caveat.

 

[Further]

The Catholic Church of that day does not exist today.

The books upon which that church based it's beliefs are the same books as today. People are fallible and flawed. Religion gives people more power over others than they would otherwise have, and when those individuals overstep their bounds and promote violence or hate, that is the fault of having an organized religion for dicks to exploit. I'm not saying any particular religion is professing X or Y, just that religion gives individuals the right to speak for god and control people on that basis.

 

[Further]

I'm going out for a hike, I'll check back tonight.

 

[barfo]

The Catholic Church of that day does not exist today.

So the Catholic Church of today is a different religion? Despite the papal lineage, the same texts/saints/etc?

When did this break occur?

If you consider that (old) Catholic Church a bad one, isn't the current one built on the same foundation?

barfo

 

[oldmangrouch]

As recently as John-Paul II, the Catholic church beatified, and seriously considered canonizing, a convicted Nazi collaborator and war criminal.

 

[MarAzul]

I'll leave Buddhism and Hinduism out because of my lack of knowledge, but the books of Christianity most certainly contain teachings intolerance and promote violent acts. Perhaps not directed at other religions, but directed at women, homosexuals, slaves, misbehaving kids, liars, adulterers and more.


Recently. That's a big caveat.

Really! Please identify the teaching of Jesus where he teaches intolerance. I can't think of one passage where Jesus promotes violent acts. Nor can I recall any teaching of Jesus anything untoward to do with women or homosexuals? Jesus didn't invent slavery, it existed long before his time. If I remember my history correctly, the first western civilization to outlawed slavery happened about 1800 years later, when France and England outlawed the practice. You might note the the Muslim world never did and they enslave people today.

You have made some very broad statements, perhaps baseless I think. Seems like an odd thing to do for no profit.

 

[MarAzul]

So the Catholic Church of today is a different religion? Despite the papal lineage, the same texts/saints/etc?

When did this break occur?

If you consider that (old) Catholic Church a bad one, isn't the current one built on the same foundation?

barfo

I really don't know which practice of the Catholic Church as it functions today, you base your objections on. Can you clarity?

 

[magnifier661]

And hundreds of millions of Muslims whom view violence as an appropriate course of action. Until those numbers dwindle to the infinitesimal numbers of deadly soccer fans, then I will continue to lay some blame on the concept of organized religion.

That's a load of crap. The people are the corrupt ones, not the religion.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

That's a load of crap. The people are the corrupt ones, not the religion.

This is what I'm saying.

 

[Further]

That's a load of crap. The people are the corrupt ones, not the religion.

I don't disagree, but it is religion that allows corrupt assholes such easy access into other people's morals.

 

[Further]

Really! Please identify the teaching of Jesus where he teaches intolerance. I can't think of one passage where Jesus promotes violent acts. Nor can I recall any teaching of Jesus anything untoward to do with women or homosexuals? Jesus didn't invent slavery, it existed long before his time. If I remember my history correctly, the first western civilization to outlawed slavery happened about 1800 years later, when France and England outlawed the practice. You might note the the Muslim world never did and they enslave people today.

You have made some very broad statements, perhaps baseless I think. Seems like an odd thing to do for no profit.

The Old Testament is not only part of the Christian canon but part of law.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

To discount the Old Testament is to mock the New Testament.

And you seem to act as if I'm on the side of the Muslims. I am not on the side of any religion. I abhor the extremists in the Muslim ranks, of which there are a whole lot. But as far as the Muslims who aren't extremists, i view them on par with Christians, Jews and Hindus.

 

[magnifier661]

I don't disagree, but it is religion that allows corrupt assholes such easy access into other people's morals.

Yes I agree

 

[magnifier661]

This is what I'm saying.

I don't disagree with that part at all. But like many extremists, they take something and twist it for their violent acts. I read those scripture in the Quran and it seems more of a "philosophy-type" reaction to their oppression.

Whatever the case, I think ISIS has taking this shit way out of control. I saw this video as they overrun the IRAQ defense near the border. There was this soldier that had the prisoners in the back of the truck. He told them "praise Allah, you are free. We must cut of your heads". I was like wtf?!?!

 

[Further]

Yes I agree

The nature of religion is that it's something so wonderful to the observer that they give themselves over completely, often letting down all their walls towards their religion, giving creeps (or anyone) from within the religion too much sway over the parishioner.

In this thread I am not knocking any specific god, religion or belief, just pointing out that this world would be better off if people tried to interact directly with whatever they think is divine and not operate by believing whatever a religion says they should.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I don't disagree with that part at all. But like many extremists, they take something and twist it for their violent acts. I read those scripture in the Quran and it seems more of a "philosophy-type" reaction to their oppression.

Whatever the case, I think ISIS has taking this shit way out of control. I saw this video as they overrun the IRAQ defense near the border. There was this soldier that had the prisoners in the back of the truck. He told them "praise Allah, you are free. We must cut of your heads". I was like wtf?!?!

Yeah, ISIS are massive dickheads, and yes, they use those same Quranic passages to justify their violence to themselves. The rest of the Muslim world doesn't buy it.

I was just reacting to you saying that they followed the Quran entirely, which isn't true. Like every other extremist group, they pick and choose what to follow and pretend like they have the "purest" interpretation, which is of course nonsense. It's unfortunate that they seem to a few posters on this board fooled.

 

[Further]

Yeah, ISIS are massive dickheads, and yes, they use those same Quranic passages to justify their violence to themselves. The rest of the Muslim world doesn't buy it.

I was just reacting to you saying that they followed the Quran entirely, which isn't true. Like every other extremist group, they pick and choose what to follow and pretend like they have the "purest" interpretation, which is of course nonsense. It's unfortunate that they seem to a few posters on this board fooled.

There is a basic problem you are dealing with. When you have a large group (Muslim in this case) and one acts out, it's blamed on the individual. When two act out, when 100 go violent, when a thousand, when fifty thousand...... Well, at some point people are going to look at the basic group they belong to and lay some blame at the feet of that group? Back a while it was much easier to divide the extremist from the rest and say they don't represent anyone, but as the many violent Muslim extremist groups add up, Hamas, Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, ISIL and a bunch of less famous but still large terrorist groups, it becomes difficult to say the religion holds no blame.

There are so many Muslims who are not extremists, the large majority. But that's because people are mostly good, not because their religion is good. You know I view most religions as bad, but I believe some are worse than others, and Islam fits that bill. I don't blame the innocents, I don't blame the moderates, but I do blame their religion. It was created thousands of years ago and can't keep up in today's world.

 

[MarAzul]

The Old Testament is not only part of the Christian canon but part of law.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

To discount the Old Testament is to mock the New Testament.

And you seem to act as if I'm on the side of the Muslims. I am not on the side of any religion. I abhor the extremists in the Muslim ranks, of which there are a whole lot. But as far as the Muslims who aren't extremists, i view them on par with Christians, Jews and Hindus.

You see, you have a different understanding the bible than I do. No doubt that has to do with the fact there is not a Christian Religion. A Christian philosophy but not a religion. There is a Catholic Religion, Baptist Religion, Eastern Orthodox and so on. Each Church could be considered a Religion but they differ greatly in practice and their interpretation of the Bible.

The old testament does not contain any teachings of Jesus. All teachings of Jesus come from the new testament and many of his teaching conflict with the Old testament. Not all but I think it is apparent that the old testament had to be part of the cannon as the back ground necessary to understand the philosophy taught by Jesus. The old testament contains no "law" unless a local authority made a law from the text.

I see nothing in the scripture you quote that indicates any teaching of Jesus is untoward with regard to women or anyone else. That is my view and it does not include any mocking of the New testament.

No parallels found in the teachings of Jesus anywhere remotely comparable to the intolerance and persecution taught by the Prophet Mohammad as guidance to faith followers of Islam.

 

[magnifier661]

The Old Testament is not only part of the Christian canon but part of law.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)

To discount the Old Testament is to mock the New Testament.

And you seem to act as if I'm on the side of the Muslims. I am not on the side of any religion. I abhor the extremists in the Muslim ranks, of which there are a whole lot. But as far as the Muslims who aren't extremists, i view them on par with Christians, Jews and Hindus.

Do you understand what Jesus was saying there? He has done all the work for us so that man doesn't have to live by the old law. Many Christians use the Old Testament as a reference, and some actually still believe they must be met if you want to get to Heavan, but the philosophy of Christ is for man to learn forgiveness, love, grace and compassion.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

There is a basic problem you are dealing with. When you have a large group (Muslim in this case) and one acts out, it's blamed on the individual. When two act out, when 100 go violent, when a thousand, when fifty thousand...... Well, at some point people are going to look at the basic group they belong to and lay some blame at the feet of that group? Back a while it was much easier to divide the extremist from the rest and say they don't represent anyone, but as the many violent Muslim extremist groups add up, Hamas, Al Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, ISIL and a bunch of less famous but still large terrorist groups, it becomes difficult to say the religion holds no blame.

There are so many Muslims who are not extremists, the large majority. But that's because people are mostly good, not because their religion is good. You know I view most religions as bad, but I believe some are worse than others, and Islam fits that bill. I don't blame the innocents, I don't blame the moderates, but I do blame their religion. It was created thousands of years ago and can't keep up in today's world.

I don't blame religion for any of what is happening; that implies agency. I blame people. Specific people. These groups have their geo-political goals they're trying to achieve for every reason you could think of: security, power, money, fame, etc. Religion is the tried and true way of manipulating people to follow you and help you achieve those goals.

There have been periods in Islamic history of great relative peace, inclusiveness, openness, science, art and culture. This had nothing to do with religion; it had to do with stability. I don't care what religion you are, if your geo-political situation is not stable, then shit is going to get ugly.

Look at the history. The Ottoman Empire collapsed 100 years ago, and since that time the region has been carved up by colonial powers, invaded for its natural resources and is lagging behind the race to modernity. All this after hundreds upon hundreds of years of "WE'RE #1" dick-waving. I don't care what religion you have, shit is going to get ugly. There are many interpretations of Islam, and we happen to live in an age where the most hard-lined conservative ones have been given an opportunity to thrive. Bitter people clinging to their guns and [Qurans], indeed.

 

[Further]

I don't blame religion for any of what is happening; that implies agency. I blame people. Specific people. These groups have their geo-political goals they're trying to achieve for every reason you could think of: security, power, money, fame, etc. Religion is the tried and true way of manipulating people to follow you and help you achieve those goals.

There have been periods in Islamic history of great relative peace, inclusiveness, openness, science, art and culture. This had nothing to do with religion; it had to do with stability. I don't care what religion you are, if your geo-political situation is not stable, then shit is going to get ugly.

Look at the history. The Ottoman Empire collapsed 100 years ago, and since that time the region has been carved up by colonial powers, invaded for its natural resources and is lagging behind the race to modernity. All this after hundreds upon hundreds of years of "WE'RE #1" dick-waving. I don't care what religion you have, shit is going to get ugly. There are many interpretations of Islam, and we happen to live in an age where the most hard-lined conservative ones have been given an opportunity to thrive. Bitter people clinging to their guns and [Qurans], indeed.

Honestly what you say makes sense, but I thinks it goes further than just some geopolitical upheaval. That can explain a portion, but there aren't outside invaders over and over forcing these upheavals. There is something within the culture that draws many (not a majority, but still a significant portion) towards violent actions.

It is because I don't blame the innocent, the non-violent, the moderate, the peaceful that I look around for a reason there is so much violence. Just about every violent extremist group in that world use the Quran to justify their actions. They even go much further, they use those words to recruit additional warriors. When the words of a religion can so easily be turned into a call for violencee , I say the religion is partially to blame.

Something is wrong with Islam. Most people are good and choose to view Islam as good and view the more violent sentences and interpretations as bad. These people would be nonviolent regardless of their texts, they equate god with love. But just because the people are good, doesn't mean there aren't far too many violence inspiring portions of the Quran. Many of those violent players might not have turned towards violence if their texts were more peaceful and accepting of outsiders.

Love the people, not the religion.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

I don't blame religion for any of what is happening; that implies agency. I blame people. Specific people. These groups have their geo-political goals they're trying to achieve for every reason you could think of: security, power, money, fame, etc. Religion is the tried and true way of manipulating people to follow you and help you achieve those goals.

There have been periods in Islamic history of great relative peace, inclusiveness, openness, science, art and culture. This had nothing to do with religion; it had to do with stability. I don't care what religion you are, if your geo-political situation is not stable, then shit is going to get ugly.

Look at the history. The Ottoman Empire collapsed 100 years ago, and since that time the region has been carved up by colonial powers, invaded for its natural resources and is lagging behind the race to modernity. All this after hundreds upon hundreds of years of "WE'RE #1" dick-waving. I don't care what religion you have, shit is going to get ugly. There are many interpretations of Islam, and we happen to live in an age where the most hard-lined conservative ones have been given an opportunity to thrive. Bitter people clinging to their guns and [Qurans], indeed.

Hoo, I respect your opinion, and do understand where your point of view comes from.

Where we differ is in the understanding that you believe the unrest comes from unrest, and I see that the unrest as a result. In every major conflict in world today, almost every one is being waged by your peaceful muslims

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Hoo, I respect your opinion, and do understand where your point of view comes from.

Where we differ is in the understanding that you believe the unrest comes from unrest, and I see that the unrest as a result. In every major conflict in world today, almost every one is being waged by your peaceful muslims

Unrest DOES come from unrest. Violence begets violence.

Blaming the religion is much easier than actually learning what is going on in each one of these conflicts, so I get why people do it. But it's intellectually dishonest, so I will continue to point out the existence of complexity in real life.