BYU mens basketball team!

[illmatic99]

Contrast BYU with this: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...sextoy-demonstration-20110303,0,7493639.story

 

[D-Rock]

Well having sex with your girlfriend is nothing like rape or murder. It's pretty inconsequential(so long as informed parties are involved) except in the eyes of God(at least according to the religious). He's being punished because he broke the honor code, which leads to the question, why is that part of the honor code? Which leads to the answer that Mormons(like many religions) believe one must preserve their "sexual purity" until they are married. Why, well... something God said you should do or a bunch of old guys said we should do... Not exactly clear & most people who follow the religion equate it to some form of purity that is fuzzy at best. The fact is, there is no way to get your virginity back, when it's gone it's gone.



Actually I am kind of thinking that they either shouldn't have come down on him at all or he should have been expelled from the school forever. You've sinned in a way that cannot be unsinned. Does the book say it's a sin to have sex before marriage? Yes or No? You sinned, you're outta here. It's actually a little ticky tacky to say "you're out for the season, but come back next season"... Umm, will his virginity be back by then? Frankly it'll just tell him that if he has sex with his girlfriend to keep his trap shut or else any hope of a basketball career might get flushed.



For a high level athlete, missing games can be a big deal.



Suspension which brings a high level of publicity on one of your star players & his girlfriend is "support", not so great. It would be silly to think the school didn't think they'd get some sort of attention over this.



Many are judgmental and the school itself is passing judgment. I guess it's hard not to be judgmental in the world.



I am well aware of religious guilt. Usually religion doesn't have very good reasons behind the feelings of guilt. Often the feelings of the guilty are spurred more by a fear of "Death By God" rather than an actual understanding on why something is actually "sinful". Often things that "feel good" are listed as being "sinful" so as to purposefully torture people I guess. In many cases religious scripture is poor at explaining why something is a sin & in many places things that were once a-ok are now sinful in modern times or visa versa.

I've never used multi-quote before. So I don’t know how to do the nifty thing where I can cut different section of a post and address them individually. Hopefully you can follow what I’m responding to anyway.

I won't argue our differing opinion about religion. I think it's pretty clear, but we can agree to disagree. I don't, however, think I've made what I was trying to say clear based on your response. When I said the issue wasn't about virginity and that it was about the honor code I may have misstated things. I attempted to make this distinction earlier, but apparently not well enough. The rule is no sex with anyone except your spouse who you are legal and lawfully married to. Therefore, it's not about reinstating someone's virginity. I'm married. I got married while attending BYU. Had I cheated on my wife and had sex with someone else which attending there, I'd be punished by the school (assuming I was turned in or I turned myself in) for having sex with someone other than my wife, not because I lost my previously already lost virginity. There would also be repercussions from the church for my actions.

Again, it has nothing to do with virginity, but is focused on the sex act itself. Yes, we value highly purity before marriage, but just because you're married and "de-virginized" doesn't mean you can now go screwing whoever you want without consequence. By focusing on the virginity aspect (which Davies may not have been a virgin when he signed up for BYU. I don't know.) you're mischaracterizing the issue. Of course a suspension doesn't bring back your virginity. However, if the concern is with the sex act (which it is) then you can repent from the sin and be able to regain good status. Yes, Davies (and anyone else for that matter) can simply continue to have sex without reporting it to avoid the consequences, but you're still missing the point as you were with forging the signature. You're on your honor. While there are some monitoring procedures in place, in large part students are supposed to govern themselves. By covering it up you just compound the problem. And the reason you're lying about it is because you already know it's against the rules!

I agree that for a high level athlete, missing games can be a big deal, but that's a short-sighted way of viewing it. His basketball career at BYU may be over (or at least his season anyway), but the guy is just a sophomore (19, 20 years old maybe?). He can play again next year or, if he's removed from the school, for someone else. His basketball days are not over. Even if they were, he's got a whole lot more living to do after this. He can still get an education and get a job like 99% of the rest of the world outside the NBA.

I apologize for not making a necessary distinction. The school is not the church and the church is not the school. They over lap quite a bit but they aren't the same entity. When I wrote the comment about support, I was referring to how the church handles those who have committed sin. That being said, I still contend that the school also does what it can to support a student who has chosen to violate a school rule. Coach Rose and the AD have made statements that they're going to support Davies through this issue. The school did nothing but publish that he was suspended from the team for violating the honor code and that the violation was not criminal in nature. That was their official statement. That's normal procedure for any university when a major athlete is kicked of the team. All the juicy details came from someone close to the issue and NOT from the school. It sucks that it's been so public, but the seedy details behind the suspension and the subsequent publicly are not BYU's fault.

Everyone makes judgments every day; about decision and people. Yes, the school is passing judgment; the same way a police officer passes judgment on someone by writing them a speeding ticket for going 35 in a 25 zone. He broke a rule and is subject to the consequences. That's the only judgment BYU has passed on Davies. You might be having a hard time distinguishing between the school rule of not having sex and the religious (Mormon) rule of not having sex. That's understandable. Many BYU students are having the same problem right now, and they are immersed in both.

I would agree that some aspects of religion (Mormonism very much included) are not clear, especially when you're exposure to it is only cursory or researched on Wikipedia. However, to say that there aren't explanations or reasons because you don't know them or don't agree with them is intellectually unfair. I don't disagree that many religious people act out of a fear of a vengeful God and without full understanding of why they're doing what they're doing. First, I believe (as does the Mormon church) that this is a mischaracterization of God's nature. While he expects us to adhere to guidelines and suffer the consequences of failing to do so, he also provided repentance that helps us overcome the spiritual consequences of our sinful actions. That is the merciful God that people tend to overlook. Psychologically I think it's fair to say that people are generally more likely to make changes out of fear than they are out of love. To me, that explains why people tend to emphasis the "you're gonna go to hell for sinning" part of religion instead of the "God loves you and while you're not perfect and there's a need to improve and correct yourself, God and give you a way to do that should you so choose" part of religion.

To say pleasurable things are considered sinful simply to torture people is ridiculous! I think I'll avoid lending any credence to this statement by responding to it in any more depth. Check that. I will respond. Religious people are not masochists simpy because they've chosen to live by a moral code and feel bad when they've failed to live up to it.

I'm sorry if this comes off like I'm railing on you. That's not my intent. Like most people active in their religion, I'm passionate about it. I don't mean for any of my comments to come across like I think you're dumb. I just think some of the statements are intellectually lazy and uninformed or misinformed.

Sorry for the long post…

 

[MickZagger]

I agree. You're free to do what you like. I choose not to 1) because I've been commanded not to (religious reason) and 2) because the enjoyment I might get from doing those things don't seem to be worth the risks (secular reason). I think Agoo responded to the women covering themselves part of this appropriately. From a Mormon standpoint, I'll again give the religious reasons for a dress code. We believe that our physical bodies are one of the most important gifts we've been given by God. As such, to do things to or with our bodies that are against God's wishes are essentially disrespecting the gift. Again, you can debate what is and isn't against God's wishes, but I'm just providing the info. As for dress standards, there is a general feeling that those who flaunt their sexuality through short shorts and skirts and low cut tops aren't just 'using what yo mama gave ya' but treating yourself with disrespect. Now I know there are plenty out there that dress povocatively (maybe not so in their opinion) and have tons of self respect. Another argument that I imagine many of you would take issue with is that by dressing in revealing fashsion, you're aiding those that would be attracted to such things to lust after you and think impure thoughts. I know, I know, if people can't handle seeing a little clevage without going all perve, they have serious problems. But you have to look at it in context. Mormons view that all children of God should not only do what they need to personally to return to heaven, but help your brothers and sisters do the same. By flashing your boobs to a guy you're not helping him live by the standards God has set for keeping your thoughts pure. The same can be said about guys who tight revealing clothing. I think it's fair to say that the emphasis is with women's fashions, but that mostly because those are more suspect to standards than mens fashsions. You may be interested in knowing that the church counsels against men and boys dressing sloppily and having an unkept appearance (hence the shaving rules). I know it sounds like you're pawning off your lack of self control to someone else, but when you look at it from a community perspective where everyone is trying to help everyone else live a certain standard, then it's a little more palletable thought. There are other reasons too, but those are probably the most prominent.

I'm sorry you had a bad encounter with a judgmental Mormon family. That will happen. There are A LOT of judgmental Mormons. I can say, however, that they are not living by the tenants of the church. I appreciate that you recognize that that's not a universal trait of Mormons. As for cliques, yeah, that does happen too. Again, I think Agoo hit it on the head, but I'll elaborate. I understand why people think Mormons are cliquish and elitist when they don't associate with those outside the faith. Call it judgmental, but part of the reason for the seperation is that they don't want to expose themselves to things they've been taught are bad. Swearing, drinking, smoking, drugs, sex, etc. seem to be what life revolves around in high school, does it not? Isn't it easier to avoid smoking or drinking by avoiding those who do so or going to parties where those things are present? I realize there are a lot of assumptions made in making those determinations about people, but for someone that's been taught to avoid those things like the plague, it makes sense to create you social circle around those with the same standards. I know that leaves good people in the cold that could have been life long friends if Mormons would be more inclusive, but maybe you can at least see why Mormons do such things even if you may not agree with them.

As for Davies to the Zags, if he chose to, I'd be down with that. I'm currently at Gonzaga Law School and have enjoyed the Zags hoops team for a while.

I don't know. It just all seems so vanilla, like when I look around in the crowd at a Jazz game. I just don't agree with a faith that essentially entails walking around on eggshells. The coolest Mormons I've ever met were the one's that didn't go by the book word for word.

 

[RR7]

Maybe they do have double standards for basketball players!

Sweet, the 3 Goggles are part of their dress code!

 

[D-Rock]

I don't know. It just all seems so vanilla, like when I look around in the crowd at a Jazz game. I just don't agree with a faith that essentially entails walking around on eggshells. The coolest Mormons I've ever met were the one's that didn't go by the book word for word.

I appreciate your candor. Would you mind expanding on what you mean by "walking around on eggshells" and "don't go by the book word for word?" I really am curious. While I have a lot of people I interact with that aren't Mormon, I don't have discussions with them about what they find socially off-putting or annoying or distasteful or whatever about Mormons. The religious aspects I get. I know they're tied together, but I think they're distinguishable. I'm not so nieve as to think Mormons aren't noticably different then most of society, but I'm curious what stands out the most to people. It's hard to see when you're on in the inside looking at the inside. I guess I'm looking for perspective...

 

[D-Rock]

Sweet, the 3 Goggles are part of their dress code!

I think that's the more sophisitcated 3 monocle.

 

[Ed O]

I grew up in rural Oregon, and when I first got to undergrad in Illinois, I was shocked to hear the casual jokes and aspersions that were made regarding Mormons. I had a fair number in my high school, and I never really thought anything of it. Lots of siblings? Yes. Tended to be more conservative? Yes. But other than that ... ? Just folks. Some really cool and some assholes.

I remember thinking, when I heard the jokes about polygamy and so on, that if I had been making similar jokes about Jews (whom I had never been in contact with growing up) I would have been expelled... or at least shunned by my schoolmates.

Ed O.

 

[MickZagger]

I appreciate your candor. Would you mind expanding on what you mean by "walking around on eggshells" and "don't go by the book word for word?" I really am curious. While I have a lot of people I interact with that aren't Mormon, I don't have discussions with them about what they find socially off-putting or annoying or distasteful or whatever about Mormons. The religious aspects I get. I know they're tied together, but I think they're distinguishable. I'm not so nieve as to think Mormons aren't noticably different then most of society, but I'm curious what stands out the most to people. It's hard to see when you're on in the inside looking at the inside. I guess I'm looking for perspective...

Walking around on eggshells, like going against human nature because you hope not to violate the rules setforth by the religion. As for going word for word, I've met people who were raised in a Mormon household, practiced Mormanity, but did deviant things like enjoyed a Coca-Cola classic from time to time, would throw in a curse word on occasion, or even enjoy a man soda (in moderation of course), or fawned over a hot chick and talked about how sexy a girl is in passing. Would this make this fellow a bad Mormon? Would he go to hell for it? I'd like to know, because this describes a friend of mine growing up.

I'm not anti-Mormon in anyway, either. What ever you practice, good for you. But, I definitely have my opinions on it. I think almost all organized religion is very judgemental and has its problems. But, I think being LSD is very cult-like. The missionary thing is a whole different conversation, I'll save that for another time.

 

[julius]

I grew up in rural Oregon, and when I first got to undergrad in Illinois, I was shocked to hear the casual jokes and aspersions that were made regarding Mormons. I had a fair number in my high school, and I never really thought anything of it. Lots of siblings? Yes. Tended to be more conservative? Yes. But other than that ... ? Just folks. Some really cool and some assholes.

I remember thinking, when I heard the jokes about polygamy and so on, that if I had been making similar jokes about Jews (whom I had never been in contact with growing up) I would have been expelled... or at least shunned by my schoolmates.

Ed O.

Lack of magic under-roos.

 

[julius]

Sweet, the 3 Goggles are part of their dress code!

technically, I think that's 3 goggle, and not 3 goggles.

 

[RR7]

technically, I think that's 3 goggle, and not 3 goggles.

That's why he got kicked off. Honor code.