Can we admit that agnosticism is the logical way of thinking?

[magnifier661]

Not that I agree with the way of thinking; since I am a christian; but I do believe agnosticism is the truest form of logical thinking.

They don't believe in things because they don't have evidence to support one way or another. Basically the "Spock" of thinking.

With atheism; they don't believe in God; yet they have no proof that God doesn't exist. Theism believes in God but arguably only have Faith and personal experience to prove their God exists. The agnostic says "I see no proof one way it another, so I won't care until the proof presents itself".

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The theory that all people are not created equal is also the logical way of thinking.:MARIS61:

 

[magnifier661]

The theory that all people are not created equal is also the logical way of thinking.:MARIS61:

Very true

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Not that I agree with the way of thinking; since I am a christian; but I do believe agnosticism is the truest form of logical thinking.

They don't believe in things because they don't have evidence to support one way or another.
...
The agnostic says "I see no proof one way it another, so I won't care until the proof presents itself".

It depends on your definition of the word "proof". If you're talking a "beyond a shadow of a doubt" level of certainty, then sure. Nobody can undeniably "prove" God--if one could, then there would clearly be no debate. If you simply want compelling evidence, then there are many who would argue that a significant amount exists. It then is up to the examiner to determine the validity and significance of the evidence presented. Examining evidence and drawing a conclusion is absolutely logical.

 

[magnifier661]

It depends on your definition of the word "proof". If you're talking a "beyond a shadow of a doubt" level of certainty, then sure. Nobody can undeniably "prove" God--if one could, then there would clearly be no debate. If you simply want compelling evidence, then there are many who would argue that a significant amount exists. It then is up to the examiner to determine the validity and significance of the evidence presented. Examining evidence and drawing a conclusion is absolutely logical.

Then wouldn't the perception of evidence play in this scenario? I mean one person need could be entirely different than the other?

 

[Eastoff]

yes to both you and el pres.

 

[Mediocre Man]

The theory that all people are not created equal is also the logical way of thinking.:MARIS61:

Do you not believe that all of us have the same ability to have pure hearts? All men don't have the same rights in God's eyes? All men are absolutely created equal in God's eyes. It's us on earth that separate the people.

 

[crowTrobot]

Not that I agree with the way of thinking; since I am a christian; but I do believe agnosticism is the truest form of logical thinking.

yes, christianity is illogical : )

They don't believe in things because they don't have evidence to support one way or another.

deism/pantheism etc. are pretty much vague concepts by nature and untestable, so in their cases agnosticism (knowledge is not possible) is logically applicable.

that is NOT true for belief in the god of the bible (and other gods of human monotheistic tradition). christianity actually has its basis in empirical/anthropological evidence that is certainly testable. knowledge of the existence (or not) of Yahweh absolutely is possible.

With atheism; they don't believe in God; yet they have no proof that God doesn't exist.

russell's teapot. logically non-belief is necessarily the default position. there's an unlimited amount of things you don't believe in that you can't disprove.

citing the lack of ability to disprove something is an excuse for belief, not a reason.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

There are a lot of things in the bible that scientist can prove is impossible. The whole Adam and Eve, Virgin Mary, Resurrection, Earth created in 7 days . . . it seems like so much is based on believeing in miracles (can't expalin it scientifically so label it a miracle). Religion is really based on a belief you have to buy into to accept everything they preach, IMO.

 

[magnifier661]

yes, christianity is illogical : )

BURN!!!!

russell's teapot. logically non-belief is necessarily the default position. there's an unlimited amount of things you don't believe in that you can't disprove.

citing the lack of ability to disprove something is an excuse for belief, not a reason.

True, but then my "lack of belief" isn't based on evidence; but a personal conviction. You can call it logical, but in the end; it's actually not empirical; therefor requires a bit of "faith". <--- Excuse the pun on words.

 

[magnifier661]

There are a lot of things in the bible that scientist can prove is impossible. The whole Adam and Eve, Virgin Mary, Resurrection, Earth created in 7 days . . . it seems like so much is based on believeing in miracles (can't expalin it scientifically so label it a miracle). Religion is really based on a belief you have to buy into to accept everything they preach, IMO.

Explain how that has anything to do with believing or not believing in a God?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Explain how that has anything to do with believing or not believing in a God?

Wasn't God invovled in a lot of miracles? If you beleive in God does that mean one would also beleive in Jesus?

Not much of a religious person, just assumed God had a lot to do with the bible and earth's creations.

Is the issue more was there a person named God? I thought it was more of what God has accomplished on Earth and what role he has today in our world and afterlife.

If you believe in God, that means you must beleive in miracles?

 

[crowTrobot]

True, but then my "lack of belief" isn't based on evidence; but a personal conviction. You can call it logical, but in the end; it's actually not empirical; therefor requires a bit of "faith". <--- Excuse the pun on words.

you're not differentiating between lack of belief and the positive claim that something does not exist.

most people who call themselves atheists actually would not claim that no possible form of god exists.

 

[magnifier661]

Wasn't God invovled in a lot of miracles? If you beleive in God does that mean one would also beleive in Jesus?

If you are a Christian, yes. If you are Muslim, you believe that Jesus was just a profit. If you are Jewish, you don't believe Jesus was anything but a man. If you are Hindu, you don't believe in him at all. If you believe in Greek Mythology, than you don't believe. Do you see where I'm going here?

Not much of a religious person, just assumed God had a lot to do with the bible and earth's creations.

There are many different forms of religions and their interpretation of God.

Is the issue more was there a person named God? I thought it was more of what God has accomplished on Earth and what role he has today in our world and afterlife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

God is often conceived as the supreme being and principal object of faith.[1] In theism, God is the creator and sustainer of the universe. In deism, God is the creator (but not the sustainer) of the universe. In pantheism, God is the universe itself. Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. Common among these are omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence. Monotheism is the belief in the existence of one God or in the oneness of God. God has also been conceived as being incorporeal (immaterial), a personal being, the source of all moral obligation, and the "greatest conceivable existent".[1] Many notable medieval philosophers and modern philosophers have developed arguments for and against the existence of God.[2]

There are many different forms of theism. Singling out one belief to be the end all for all beliefs doesn't apply.

Also, there are a few things you can use in the "7 days" theory. It has been openly adopted that the universe expanded faster than the speed of light; which means that the universe had a point when the natural law didn't exist. That means that "supernatural" <-- Outside the realm of natural occurrence is entirely possible. That could also support that there may be a being or things that are outside this law already.

 

[magnifier661]

you're not differentiating between lack of belief and the positive claim that something does not exist.

most people who call themselves atheists actually would not claim that no possible form of god exists.

See I know you disagree, but I don't see it in this way. I feel that true "atheism" is knowledge that God doesn't exist. But you and I have beat this dead horse too many times before.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

If you are a Christian, yes. If you are Muslim, you believe that Jesus was just a profit. If you are Jewish, you don't believe Jesus was anything but a man. If you are Hindu, you don't believe in him at all. If you believe in Greek Mythology, than you don't believe. Do you see where I'm going here?



There are many different forms of religions and their interpretation of God.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God



There are many different forms of theism. Singling out one belief to be the end all for all beliefs doesn't apply.

Also, there are a few things you can use in the "7 days" theory. It has been openly adopted that the universe expanded faster than the speed of light; which means that the universe had a point when the natural law didn't exist. That means that "supernatural" <-- Outside the realm of natural occurrence is entirely possible. That could also support that there may be a being or things that are outside this law already.

OK, haven't really thought deeply about this and all above my head, so I'll go with what you are saying.

My background is I was a biology major in college, so I fall strongly on the side of believing in evolution. Are there religions that recognize that man evolved rather than mad was created by God?

 

[magnifier661]

OK, haven't really thought deeply about this and all above my head, so I'll go with what you are saying.

My background is I was a biology major in college, so I fall strongly on the side of believing in evolution. Are there religions that recognize that man evolved rather than mad was created by God?

You can believe in evolution and creationism at the same time. Many of those types believe that an evolution took place, but God directed how it evolved. Much like a biologist may work with a specific mold and create the perfect condition to grow it in.

There is still the great question of "The first self replicating molecule"; which even scratches the head of Dawson or others that have fully adopted evolution and life without God.

 

[Denny Crane]

Google search for objectivism.

 

[magnifier661]

Google search for objectivism.

That would apply to both theist and anti-theism. The objectivism, in terms of philosophy, can be used like this to a theist... "If there is no empirical evidence that life can be created without life; then one could assume that the start of life was created by God". The atheist could say, "If there is no empirical evidence that God exists; then why believe in God?". Both are just as "logical" in the objectivism standpoint.

 

[Denny Crane]

That would apply to both theist and anti-theism. The objectivism, in terms of philosophy, can be used like this to a theist... "If there is no empirical evidence that life can be created without life; then one could assume that the start of life was created by God". The atheist could say, "If there is no empirical evidence that God exists; then why believe in God?". Both are just as "logical" in the objectivism standpoint.

Except for the detect reality with the senses part.

 

[magnifier661]

Except for the detect reality with the senses part.

I'm not understanding your reply. Can you explain a little further?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Do you not believe that all of us have the same ability to have pure hearts? All men don't have the same rights in God's eyes? All men are absolutely created equal in God's eyes. It's us on earth that separate the people.

That is not logical. Logic and "what is right" are rarely aligned.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I believe I'll have another drink ...

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm not understanding your reply. Can you explain a little further?

If you don't see, smell, taste, hear, or touch "god," then he's not real. He doesn't exist.

Life exists. You trivially observe this fact with your senses. You find fossils that are hundreds of thousands of years old, so you can deduce life existed then.

I'd note that observation can include the use of equipment, like a ginger counter to detect radiation.

 

[Denny Crane]

I believe I'll have another drink ...

I hope so. It would really suck if you didn't.

 

[magnifier661]

If you don't see, smell, taste, hear, or touch "god," then he's not real. He doesn't exist.

Life exists. You trivially observe this fact with your senses. You find fossils that are hundreds of thousands of years old, so you can deduce life existed then.

I'd note that observation can include the use of equipment, like a ginger counter to detect radiation.

So then, wouldn't that apply to the same principle of "singularity" or "The first self replicating molecule"?

 

[Denny Crane]

So then, wouldn't that apply to the same principle of "singularity" or "The first self replicating molecule"?

Sure. There is direct contact with reality and Reason involved.

 

[magnifier661]

Sure. There is direct contact with reality and Reason involved.

We have direct contact with singularity and the first self-replicating molecule? I would like to see this evidence.

 

[MARIS61]

Agnosticism is the fearful or lazy refusal to accept logic.

 

[Denny Crane]

We have direct contact with singularity and the first self-replicating molecule? I would like to see this evidence.

You have direct contact with REALITY and all the REAL evidence that points to those things. Reason allows you to deduce those things exist. Unlike an IDEA that has no basis in REALITY and lacks REAL evidence.