Can we rebuild around Lillard?

[Rastapopoulos]

Questions:
Are we mired in mediocrity for the foreseeable future in part because we've given Dame a supermax contract? On the one hand, we weren't getting any big-name free agents anyway, because Portland, but on the other, you have to have assets even to trade and:
* either our assets are good young players, or
* draft picks
and getting either of those before Dame gets too old is going to be hard. Are Collins and Simons attractive assets? Possibly (although the more Simons plays...) but do we really want to trade them for somebody around 30 when in all likelihood it won't net us a championship?

We think of CJ as a pretty big asset, but do other teams think that? I think maybe someone like Tobias Harris for CJ might be a trade the Sixers would do, but is Harris really a step up from CJ?

The other thing is, would Olshey do it? I think maybe our playoff run last season will turn out to be a bad thing because it meant that Olshey was "vindicated" and could continue trying to build around Dame and CJ, and we don't get change. I admire teams like the Raptors and Warriors, who did well under Dwayne Casey and Mark Jackson but still had the nads to say "we can do better". (I think we should've fired Dunleavy after the WCF loss to the Lakers, but that team had other flaws.)

Sadly I think this team is wedded to Lillard come what may. There's an honor in that, and I admire the hell out of Dame as a person, and he's probably our best player since Clyde (hard to judge Rasheed, and Pippen I think of as a Bull, certainly in his prime years, and good as Roy was, we kept losing in the first round to worse teams) but he's also got a hole in his game on defense, unlike other comparable PGs like Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry. He doesn't seem to want to leave, but I can't help but wonder if Philly could suddenly become a serious contender if they swapped Ben Simmons for Dame, who complements Embiid so much better.

Talk me round: can anyone come up with a flawed team built round a not-quite-super-duperstar player which suddenly managed to vault to contender status? Was Steph Curry always better than Dame or did he only become STEPH CURRY when Kerr took over? And anyway, didn't the Warriors have much better talent? Who's the Kawhi we can get to Raptor us to glory?

I've been in a funk since before Carmelo, but signing him was just the nail in the coffin. It was like a cruel joke: "hey, let's dangle a shiny thing in front of the fans to distract them from the fact that our team is shit". And all that "contender" talk before the season was at best braggadocio and now just looks pathetic.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Questions:
Are we mired in mediocrity for the foreseeable future in part because we've given Dame a supermax contract? On the one hand, we weren't getting any big-name free agents anyway, because Portland, but on the other, you have to have assets even to trade and:
* either our assets are good young players, or
* draft picks
and getting either of those before Dame gets too old is going to be hard. Are Collins and Simons attractive assets? Possibly (although the more Simons plays...) but do we really want to trade them for somebody around 30 when in all likelihood it won't net us a championship?

We think of CJ as a pretty big asset, but do other teams think that? I think maybe someone like Tobias Harris for CJ might be a trade the Sixers would do, but is Harris really a step up from CJ?

The other thing is, would Olshey do it? I think maybe our playoff run last season will turn out to be a bad thing because it meant that Olshey was "vindicated" and could continue trying to build around Dame and CJ, and we don't get change. I admire teams like the Raptors and Warriors, who did well under Dwayne Casey and Mark Jackson but still had the nads to say "we can do better". (I think we should've fired Dunleavy after the WCF loss to the Lakers, but that team had other flaws.)

Sadly I think this team is wedded to Lillard come what may. There's an honor in that, and I admire the hell out of Dame as a person, and he's probably our best player since Clyde (hard to judge Rasheed, and Pippen I think of as a Bull, certainly in his prime years, and good as Roy was, we kept losing in the first round to worse teams) but he's also got a hole in his game on defense, unlike other comparable PGs like Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry. He doesn't seem to want to leave, but I can't help but wonder if Philly could suddenly become a serious contender if they swapped Ben Simmons for Dame, who complements Embiid so much better.

Talk me round: can anyone come up with a flawed team built round a not-quite-super-duperstar player which suddenly managed to vault to contender status? Was Steph Curry always better than Dame or did he only become STEPH CURRY when Kerr took over? And anyway, didn't the Warriors have much better talent? Who's the Kawhi we can get to Raptor us to glory?

I've been in a funk since before Carmelo, but signing him was just the nail in the coffin. It was like a cruel joke: "hey, let's dangle a shiny thing in front of the fans to distract them from the fact that our team is shit". And all that "contender" talk before the season was at best braggadocio and now just looks pathetic.

When we gave Dame the supermax. I was against it. I was against him taking it. If we want to win, you cant have 2-3 guys eating up 70-80% of the cap. I got a ton of heat around here for saying Dame should ask to take less if he wants to win....

 

[illmatic99]

When we gave Dame the supermax. I was against it. I was against him taking it. If we want to win, you cant have 2-3 guys eating up 70-80% of the cap. I got a ton of heat around here for saying Dame should ask to take less if he wants to win....

This is wrong. This is actually the norm.

Let's look at some trios around the league in 2021.

GSW: Curry (46), Klay (38), Russell (30) --> 114 mil, and they have Draymond at 24.
HOU: Russ (44), Harden (44), Capela (19) --> 107 mil, and they still have Gordon at another 18
PHI: Harris (36), Simmons (32), Embiid (32) --> 100 mil, and they have Horford at 27 mil.
BOS: Kemba (36), Brown (25), Tatum (max, 33) --> 94 mil
BKN: Durant (41), Kyrie (35), LeVert( 18) --> 94 mil, and they have Prince at an inexplicable 15 mil
MIL: Giannis (supermax coming, 40), Middleton (33), Bledsoe (18) --> 91 mil
LAC: George (38), Kawhi (36), Beverley? (14) --> 88 mil
DEN: Murray (32), Jokic (31), Harris (20) --> 83 mil

We'd have: Dame (44), CJ(31), and Nurk (12) --> 87 mil

 

[Orion Bailey]

This is wrong. This is actually the norm.

Let's look at some trios around the league in 2021.

GSW: Curry (46), Klay (38), Russell (30) --> 114 mil, and they have Draymond at 24.
HOU: Russ (44), Harden (44), Capela (19) --> 107 mil, and they still have Gordon at another 18
PHI: Harris (36), Simmons (32), Embiid (32) --> 100 mil, and they have Horford at 27 mil.
BOS: Kemba (36), Brown (25), Tatum (max, 33) --> 94 mil
BKN: Durant (41), Kyrie (35), LeVert( 18) --> 94 mil, and they have Prince at an inexplicable 15 mil
MIL: Giannis (supermax coming, 40), Middleton (33), Bledsoe (18) --> 91 mil
LAC: George (38), Kawhi (36), Beverley? (14) --> 88 mil
DEN: Murray (32), Jokic (31), Harris (20) --> 83 mil

We'd have: Dame (44), CJ(31), and Nurk (12) --> 87 mil

I don't think my numbers were correct though. I still disagree it's the way to build a long term contender. GSW is the only team that has won with the list you provided.

To say i'm wrong because many other teams have the same aprox. ratio in top tier spending doesn't mean anything if they haven't won. Lets break down the spending of the teams that have won and that would be a more compelling/statistically accurate argument in my opinion.

 

[illmatic99]

I don't think my numbers were correct though. I still disagree it's the way to build a long term contender. GSW is the only team that has won with the list you provided.

To say i'm wrong because many other teams have the same aprox. ratio in top tier spending doesn't mean anything if they haven't won. Lets break down the spending of the teams that have won and that would be a more compelling/statistically accurate argument in my opinion.

If you want to limit this to only teams who have won a title, then your list will be very limited. Well, no shit. It only works for GS. Toronto won with its top three players earning ~80 mil last year, and Kawhi wasn't one of them (Gasol/Lowry/Ibaka).

 

[Orion Bailey]

If you want to limit this to only teams who have won a title, then your list will be very limited. Well, no shit. It only works for GS. Toronto won with its top three players earning ~80 mil last year, and Kawhi wasn't one of them (Gasol/Lowry/Ibaka).

That's kinda my point though. The supermax is killing teams abilities. Just the fact that my list will be limited is an eye opener to that. Regardless to have a list of anything but title winners seems moot to me because if the team didn't win, then it doesn't matter how they spent their money right? I mean the topic (at the moment) is how to spread the wealth to win... or something like that, isn't it?

 

[illmatic99]

That's kinda my point though. The supermax is killing teams abilities. Just the fact that my list will be limited is an eye opener to that. Regardless to have a list of anything but title winners seems moot to me because if the team didn't win, then it doesn't matter how they spent their money right? I mean the topic (at the moment) is how to spread the wealth to win... or something like that, isn't it?

No. The point is, both CJ and Dame's extensions are on par with how other contenders have spread their money and we have to remember that our second best player is actually going to be earning a measly 12 mil/yr. You have to look at this in aggregate, especially if your entire premise is based on us not having flexibility to add others around our trio.

 

[AldoTrapani]

He’s about 30 years old. So we do have about a couple more years to try to win with him but other than that, no. Time has been running out fast.

A lot of new era teams are currently surpassing us. The great Luka Doncic in Dallas. Donovan Mitchell in Utah. Ja Morant will be a force in about 2 years. Booker and Ayton will start to click even more by next year.

the rebuild might be coming sooner than later for us

 

[Orion Bailey]

No. The point is, both CJ and Dame's extensions are on par with how other contenders have spread their money and we have to remember that our second best player is actually going to be earning a measly 12 mil/yr. You have to look at this in aggregate, especially if your entire premise is based on us not having flexibility to add others around our trio.

But then we need to compare our two best players with that of other teams' 2 best players. Is Dame and CJ worth KD and Curry? LBJ and AD? Harden and Westbrick?

Our second best player is CJ, correct? He is making 12 mill??? Or did you mean Nurk, who isnt playing?

Are most other teams two best players in the same position and eat up that salary percent?

Many factors on this other than just the top three on other teams make so and so...

 

[illmatic99]

Questions:
Are we mired in mediocrity for the foreseeable future in part because we've given Dame a supermax contract? On the one hand, we weren't getting any big-name free agents anyway, because Portland, but on the other, you have to have assets even to trade and:
* either our assets are good young players, or
* draft picks
and getting either of those before Dame gets too old is going to be hard. Are Collins and Simons attractive assets? Possibly (although the more Simons plays...) but do we really want to trade them for somebody around 30 when in all likelihood it won't net us a championship?

We think of CJ as a pretty big asset, but do other teams think that? I think maybe someone like Tobias Harris for CJ might be a trade the Sixers would do, but is Harris really a step up from CJ?

The other thing is, would Olshey do it? I think maybe our playoff run last season will turn out to be a bad thing because it meant that Olshey was "vindicated" and could continue trying to build around Dame and CJ, and we don't get change. I admire teams like the Raptors and Warriors, who did well under Dwayne Casey and Mark Jackson but still had the nads to say "we can do better". (I think we should've fired Dunleavy after the WCF loss to the Lakers, but that team had other flaws.)

Sadly I think this team is wedded to Lillard come what may. There's an honor in that, and I admire the hell out of Dame as a person, and he's probably our best player since Clyde (hard to judge Rasheed, and Pippen I think of as a Bull, certainly in his prime years, and good as Roy was, we kept losing in the first round to worse teams) but he's also got a hole in his game on defense, unlike other comparable PGs like Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry. He doesn't seem to want to leave, but I can't help but wonder if Philly could suddenly become a serious contender if they swapped Ben Simmons for Dame, who complements Embiid so much better.

Talk me round: can anyone come up with a flawed team built round a not-quite-super-duperstar player which suddenly managed to vault to contender status? Was Steph Curry always better than Dame or did he only become STEPH CURRY when Kerr took over? And anyway, didn't the Warriors have much better talent? Who's the Kawhi we can get to Raptor us to glory?

I've been in a funk since before Carmelo, but signing him was just the nail in the coffin. It was like a cruel joke: "hey, let's dangle a shiny thing in front of the fans to distract them from the fact that our team is shit". And all that "contender" talk before the season was at best braggadocio and now just looks pathetic.

Why do we need to rebuild?

A healthy Dame-Nurk-CJ trio can win 45-50 games. Why are you simply ignoring our playoff success last year with only two of those three?

We just need the right pieces around them to climb up and not let this one down year obscure the previous 6.

 

[illmatic99]

But then we need to compare our two best players with that of other teams' 2 best players. Is Dame and CJ worth KD and Curry? LBJ and AD? Harden and Westbrick?

Our second best player is CJ, correct? He is making 12 mill??? Or did you mean Nurk, who isnt playing?

Are most other teams two best players in the same position and eat up that salary percent?

Many factors on this other than just the top three on other teams make so and so...

Nurkic is by every standard our second best player. He is a borderline all star and Dame is a bonafide one.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Why do we need to rebuild?

A healthy Dame-Nurk-CJ trio can win 45-50 games. Why are you simply ignoring our playoff success last year with only two of those three?

We just need the right pieces around them to climb up and not let this one down year obscure the previous 6.

Many people beleive Dame/CJ cant win together and I beleive that is the premise for the rebuild suggested.

I am more in your boat on this.( I think Dame makes too much though, if you hadn't noticed.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Nurkic is by every standard our second best player. He is a borderline all star and Dame is a bonafide one.

Just wanted to clarify since Nurk is out. I agree with prior to injury, but we are not sure he will be the same and until he is, I think CJ takes over that second spot. Semantics though.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Why do we need to rebuild?

Because we lost half our roster and replaced it with players who don't fit and were rejected by their previous teams?

A healthy Dame-Nurk-CJ trio can win 45-50 games. Why are you simply ignoring our playoff success last year with only two of those three?

1. I don't believe that was representative. We caught OKC with a hobbled Paul George (he gave in and had surgery in the offseason) and just squeaked by a very young Denver. Denver, for example, has only got better, and we have got worse. And then we got swept. THAT part was representative.
2. I wish I had your certainty that Nurk will regain the form he had at his peak. That was a very nasty injury, and he's a big guy. Leg injuries to big men are no joke.

 

[illmatic99]

1. I don't believe that was representative. We caught OKC with a hobbled Paul George (he gave in and had surgery in the offseason) and just squeaked by a very young Denver. Denver, for example, has only got better, and we have got worse. And then we got swept. THAT part was representative.
2. I wish I had your certainty that Nurk will regain the form he had at his peak. That was a very nasty injury, and he's a big guy. Leg injuries to big men are no joke.

We weren't exactly the picture of perfect health in the playoffs last year. Enes was playing much of it with one arm, and Dame's ribs were taking a beating.

You think our team missing its second best player and 3 of its top 5 is MORE representative?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

We weren't exactly the picture of perfect health in the playoffs last year. Enes was playing much of it with one arm, and Dame's ribs were taking a beating.

True. Last year was great while it lasted. But do you really think that that was our true selves, and we can turn that on again in the playoffs? Don't forget how important Enes Kanter was.
Also: last year the Lakers and the Clippers were average at best. And next year the Warriors will be better than us (and most Western teams).

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I think last year's team was greater than the sum of its parts. Aminu and Harkless (and even ET) knew their roles and played them to the best of their abilities (which, on defense, were better than just about anyone we have now). Now we are worse than the sum of our parts. Whiteside, in particular, puts up gaudy stats while the team sucks. If we had anyone half decent behind him I have a feeling Stotts would sit his ass down (as he did while we were attempting a comeback against Utah, as Gobert commented). And don't get me started about Old Man Melo.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Why are you simply ignoring our playoff success last year with only two of those three?

Newsflash: we still have the same two you mention. Have you seen our record?

 

[illmatic99]

True. Last year was great while it lasted. But do you really think that that was our true selves, and we can turn that on again in the playoffs? Don't forget how important Enes Kanter was.
Also: last year the Lakers and the Clippers were average at best. And next year the Warriors will be better than us (and most Western teams).

A team with Dame/Nurk/CJ locked up, Collins/Simons on rookie deals, a possible lottery pick, a decent long shot player in Little, and about 15 mil of capspace is actually in pretty decent shape. This year has been an absolute clusterfuck, but our long term prospects are no worse than they were to start the season.

 

[illmatic99]

Newsflash: we still have the same two you mention. Have you seen our record?

This is like selective reasoning or something.

You think we'd be just as bad with Zach and Hood still playing? The Aminu/Harkless narratives are understandable from the outside, but we all know how big of liabilities they were.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

A team with Dame/Nurk/CJ locked up, Collins/Simons on rookie deals, a possible lottery pick, a decent long shot player in Little, and about 15 mil of capspace is actually in pretty decent shape. This year has been an absolute clusterfuck, but our long term prospects are no worse than they were to start the season.

If you consider competing for the 7-8 seed as decent shape, than you are right. But there is no way this Dame/CJ ISO ball heavy offense will contend for a title. And there is no chance of this offense changing as long as Stotts and CJ are here.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

This is like selective reasoning or something.

Something.

You think we'd be just as bad with Zach and Hood still playing?

We weren't exactly looking great with them. Hood was playing well, and Zach was our best defender (not hard these days) but they're both pretty flawed, and the view around the league is that Zach is a disappointment. Hood was also available because he'd been discarded by several teams, so his confidence seems pretty fragile.

The Aminu/Harkless narratives are understandable from the outside, but we all know how big of liabilities they were.

This is also selective reasoning. We had short-term success by playing Hood more, for example, but it wasn't as if they were out of the rotation, and their defense is sorely missed.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

A team with Dame/Nurk/CJ locked up, Collins/Simons on rookie deals, a possible lottery pick, a decent long shot player in Little, and about 15 mil of capspace is actually in pretty decent shape. This year has been an absolute clusterfuck, but our long term prospects are no worse than they were to start the season.

 

[Chris Craig]

It won't be easy to rebuild around Lillard with young guys. The Blazers have 4 years. If they don't win a chip with Dame in that window, they likely won't. His prime won't last forever.

 

[James lamphear]

Aminu and Harkless had length and there backup Hood and Zach also had length. All 4 of them are decent defenders. Center position we had Nurk with Zach. Our front court was a lot better defender then we got now plus 5 of them had length. They cover up Dame and CJ defense lapse. This year our front court are not good defenders even though Whiteside gets block shots and get a lot rebounds but individual as defender he not as good as Nurk. Plus only one as length is Whiteside.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

It won't be easy to rebuild around Lillard with young guys. The Blazers have 4 years. If they don't win a chip with Dame in that window, they likely won't. His prime won't last forever.

I remember the season Clyde asked to be traded people were already calling him "Clyde the Slide," as in his form. It'll be sad to watch that with Dame on a marginal playoff team.

 

[AldoTrapani]

Nurkic is by every standard our second best player. He is a borderline all star and Dame is a bonafide one.

Not this year he ain’t lol

 

[BigGameDamian]

It won't be easy to rebuild around Lillard with young guys. The Blazers have 4 years. If they don't win a chip with Dame in that window, they likely won't. His prime won't last forever.

Agree! Dame wants to win and win now! Either you blow it up, Do Dame a solid by trading him to a contender where he can win. Or. You stay on path and build though trades. The Lakers sacrificed there young talent for AD.

 

[illmatic99]

If you consider competing for the 7-8 seed as decent shape, than you are right. But there is no way this Dame/CJ ISO ball heavy offense will contend for a title. And there is no chance of this offense changing as long as Stotts and CJ are here.

Something.



We weren't exactly looking great with them. Hood was playing well, and Zach was our best defender (not hard these days) but they're both pretty flawed, and the view around the league is that Zach is a disappointment. Hood was also available because he'd been discarded by several teams, so his confidence seems pretty fragile.


This is also selective reasoning. We had short-term success by playing Hood more, for example, but it wasn't as if they were out of the rotation, and their defense is sorely missed.

I just don't see this year as a doom and gloom, blow it up, we're screwed like some of you are seeing. All the moves made this past summer don't do a damn thing to our future flexibility. Even if you consider CJ's deal as poor, it certainly is not untradeable, nor is he a negative asset. The lack of synergy between he and Dame has certainly been an issue and why I'm open to trading him, but we also saw what he did in Game 7 @ DEN. We aren't getting a player like that in free agency.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I just don't see this year as a doom and gloom, blow it up, we're screwed like some of you are seeing. All the moves made this past summer don't do a damn thing to our future flexibility. Even if you consider CJ's deal as poor, it certainly is not untradeable, nor is he a negative asset. The lack of synergy between he and Dame has certainly been an issue and why I'm open to trading him, but we also saw what he did in Game 7 @ DEN. We aren't getting a player like that in free agency.

This is where im at.

This season absolutely sucks. But its one season and there is a bigger picture here. The long term goal hasn't changed, nor has it been marred, in my opinion. This is an instant, drive thru, world though and long term/big picture views escape many.

Could this team be better if better moves had been made in years past? Of course. I'm pretty sure every team in the league can say the same. Hindsight is 20/20, yet some act as though its the only vision GMs should use... before its attainable.