Career Rebound Rates for PFs

[BGrantFan]

Stuck on a bullshit conference call, it's time for the latest edition of stats that prove one thing to one side, and something else to the other side.

Career rebound rates for some of the other PFs/SFs that have been mentioned in the "banger" thread calling for Lamarcus Aldridge to be moved.

Rasheed Wallace - ORB% - 5.2 (high of 7.9 in career), DRB% - 18.8 (high of 24.6), TRB% - 12.1 (14 high)

Robert Horry - ORB% - 7.0 (9.8 high), DRB% - 14.8 (17.8 high), TRB% - 11.0 (14.0 high)

Lamarcus Aldridge - ORB% - 9.6 (12.6 high), DRB% - 16.5 (16.8 high), TRB% - 13.1 (13.9 high)

Lamar Odom - ORB% - 6.4 (8.7 high), DRB% - 21.7 (26.4 high), TRB% - 14.1 (17.3 high)

What this proves? Don't know. If Lamarcus "softer" than these players in terms of hitting the glass? I don't think so, and he's better than the rest at crashing the offensive boards.

 

[BGrantFan]

I guess one thing these stats prove to me is that if Greg Oden is healthy, Lamarcus Aldridge seems to be a great compliment to him.

 

[hasoos]

I guess the question is, do you consider those other players good rebounders? Lamar Odom was known as soft until he started playing with Miami and then LA with Phil Jackson. He averaged about 6 rebounds a game, and now he averages more like about 9+. I consider Rasheed Wallace a soft rebounder. I considered Horry a poor rebounder as well, who made timely plays, mostly because he was really a big 3 playing 4.

I guess what folks are trying to say is, that Lamarcus could do better. All fans want their players to do better, and when they notice effort is missing, it strikes a cord. Is it as important if Oden is playing? Definitly not. But the reality is, Oden hasn't been playing.

 

[RR7]

I guess the question is, do you consider those other players good rebounders? Lamar Odom was known as soft until he started playing with Miami and then LA with Phil Jackson. He averaged about 6 rebounds a game, and now he averages more like about 9+. I consider Rasheed Wallace a soft rebounder. I considered Horry a poor rebounder as well, who made timely plays, mostly because he was really a big 3 playing 4.

I guess what folks are trying to say is, that Lamarcus could do better. All fans want their players to do better, and when they notice effort is missing, it strikes a cord. Is it as important if Oden is playing? Definitly not. But the reality is, Oden hasn't been playing.

Well, sure, everyone can do better. But it seems all season, there has been criticism of Aldridge being soft, and more recently commentary that we can not win a title with him as our #2. You mentioned to me in a post last week abou thow he was a weak scorer for a #2 on a team. I showed you where he was actually the second or third highest #2 scorer in the playoffs last season. I believe you failed to respond. I think the point here is, you can win a title, as these players outside of Aldridge have, with someone like that as your PF.

 

[BGrantFan]

Well, sure, everyone can do better. But it seems all season, there has been criticism of Aldridge being soft, and more recently commentary that we can not win a title with him as our #2. You mentioned to me in a post last week abou thow he was a weak scorer for a #2 on a team. I showed you where he was actually the second or third highest #2 scorer in the playoffs last season. I believe you failed to respond. I think the point here is, you can win a title, as these players outside of Aldridge have, with someone like that as your PF.

I'll add that a solid rebounding center is needed to compliment Aldridge. We have three of them right now. Trouble is, only one is healthy.

 

[Wheels]

I will also agree that Odom is a pretty dang good rebounder now. And that last game at the RG was just painful to sit through. He out-everythinged LaMarcus that night.

 

[BGrantFan]

I will also agree that Odom is a pretty dang good rebounder now. And that last game at the RG was just painful to sit through. He out-everythinged LaMarcus that night.

Odom is having a career-best year rebounding. I have to tip my hat to a guy who plays this well after receiving a new contract. It gives me hope for Lamarcus, since his rebounding numbers are closer to Odom as a young player than the others on the list.

 

[Wheels]

Odom is having a career-best year rebounding. I have to tip my hat to a guy who plays this well after receiving a new contract. It gives me hope for Lamarcus, since his rebounding numbers are closer to Odom as a young player than the others on the list.

Odom averaged 10.7 in the 07/08 season. Ever since he was in Miami he has been pretty good. Since the 03/04 season in Miami he is averaging 9.6 Rebounds per season.

But yes first 4 years are pretty comparable. Odom kinda of regressed after his rookie. While Aldridge went up a little, but probably due to more time. I hope whatever clicked in Odom's head, will click in LaMarcus' though.

 

[BGrantFan]

Odom averaged 10.7 in the 07/08 season. Ever since he was in Miami he has been pretty good. Since the 03/04 season in Miami he is averaging 9.6 Rebounds per season.

But yes first 4 years are pretty comparable. Odom kinda of regressed after his rookie. While Aldridge went up a little, but probably due to more time. I hope whatever clicked in Odom's head, will click in LaMarcus' though.

I don't think Lamarcus will average over 10rpg with Oden next to him. I'm totally fine with that so long as he continues to grow as a defensive player. He's already solid on defense.

 

[Chuck Taylor]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for LA's head here - but putting together a list of other bad rebounders doesn't take anything away from the argument that LA isn't a "banger".

 

[RR7]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for LA's head here - but putting together a list of other bad rebounders doesn't take anything away from the argument that LA isn't a "banger".

No, it doesn't. But that isn't the point of the thread, if I may speak for BGrantFan. Some have said without a banger at PF, we won't win a title, so I believe he is showing that recent title winners have had these similar players, who were not bangers. And if they can win with that, we can as well.

 

[BGrantFan]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for LA's head here - but putting together a list of other bad rebounders doesn't take anything away from the argument that LA isn't a "banger".

To add to RR7, the other players were called "bangers" by some other posters. I happen to believe that Lamarcus is an ideal compliment to Oden. I don't believe he's a "banger", but I don't believe the other players listed are "bangers", either.

 

[hasoos]

Well, sure, everyone can do better. But it seems all season, there has been criticism of Aldridge being soft, and more recently commentary that we can not win a title with him as our #2. You mentioned to me in a post last week abou thow he was a weak scorer for a #2 on a team. I showed you where he was actually the second or third highest #2 scorer in the playoffs last season. I believe you failed to respond. I think the point here is, you can win a title, as these players outside of Aldridge have, with someone like that as your PF.

I probably didn't see your response if I didn't respond. I don't consider it a duty to patrol every thread and reply to every reply. Message boards are fun, but aren't a job.

Now as for your statement, you are saying that Lamarcus was this rank of #2 scorer. Fine that's great. But here is my problem with your statement. Stats don't tell the whole story. Teams like Orlando, Cleveland and LA don't often need their #2 scorer to pick up the load, because they have superior depth, team play, and spread the scoring love around much better. The other thing you fail to mention is that Lamarcus often would do all of his scoring in about 1 quarter and then dissappear for much of the rest of the game. If the dude would play 4 quarters one day, he could probably drop 40+. But he doesn't. He has a wonderful 16 point quarter. 3 quarters later he has 19.

Now you may disagree with this principal, but IMO, your #2 scorer needs to be able to score at a #1 scorer level when your #1 player is out. When Roy was out, Lamarcus rarely did that. When I am talking #1 scorer level, I am not saying just leading the team in scoring. I mean carrying the team in scoring. 25+ per game. It's called elevating your game in a time of need. It rarely happened.

Now last but not least go through western conference power forwards, go down the list, and consider each canidate and ask yourself are they better then Lamarcus Aldridge.

1. Is Carlos Boozer better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
2. Is Paul Gasol better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
3. Is Dirk Nowitzki better than Lamarcus Aldrige? Yep.
4. Is Amare Stoudemire better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
5. Is Al Jefferson better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
6. Is Tim Duncan better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.

15 teams in the western conference. 6 of them definitly have better PF than Aldridge. Those guys above, it is not even a question. 5 of those teams are playoff teams. So we have a disadvantage every night against them. It is not until you start talking about the David West, Luis Scola types that you are in the range of PF that Aldridge falls into. Above average. Not elite. If Aldridge played in the post more he could get there. But he doesn't.

So take your numbers as you will. There is getting it done, and not getting it done. They should record a stat for that.

 

[BGrantFan]

I probably didn't see your response if I didn't respond. I don't consider it a duty to patrol every thread and reply to every reply. Message boards are fun, but aren't a job.

Now as for your statement, you are saying that Lamarcus was this rank of #2 scorer. Fine that's great. But here is my problem with your statement. Stats don't tell the whole story. Teams like Orlando, Cleveland and LA don't often need their #2 scorer to pick up the load, because they have superior depth, team play, and spread the scoring love around much better. The other thing you fail to mention is that Lamarcus often would do all of his scoring in about 1 quarter and then dissappear for much of the rest of the game. If the dude would play 4 quarters one day, he could probably drop 40+. But he doesn't. He has a wonderful 16 point quarter. 3 quarters later he has 19.

Now you may disagree with this principal, but IMO, your #2 scorer needs to be able to score at a #1 scorer level when your #1 player is out. When Roy was out, Lamarcus rarely did that. When I am talking #1 scorer level, I am not saying just leading the team in scoring. I mean carrying the team in scoring. 25+ per game. It's called elevating your game in a time of need. It rarely happened.

Now last but not least go through western conference power forwards, go down the list, and consider each canidate and ask yourself are they better then Lamarcus Aldridge.

1. Is Carlos Boozer better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
2. Is Paul Gasol better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
3. Is Dirk Nowitzki better than Lamarcus Aldrige? Yep.
4. Is Amare Stoudemire better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
5. Is Al Jefferson better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
6. Is Tim Duncan better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.

15 teams in the western conference. 6 of them definitly have better PF than Aldridge. Those guys above, it is not even a question. 5 of those teams are playoff teams. So we have a disadvantage every night against them. It is not until you start talking about the David West, Luis Scola types that you are in the range of PF that Aldridge falls into. Above average. Not elite. If Aldridge played in the post more he could get there. But he doesn't.

So take your numbers as you will. There is getting it done, and not getting it done. They should record a stat for that.

I don't understand the point of this post. I'll also point out, that of the 6 PFs listed, only 2 have won an NBA title, and only 1 did so as the best player on that team.

Help me out here. Your (very long) post makes little sense to me. Are you saying that the Blazers need a plus at every position? I'll also argue that Aldridge is very close to be Tim Duncan's equal, and over 7 games, I'd love to see that battle.

EDIT - I'd also like to know how a guy who plays no defense (Al Jefferson) is "better" than Aldridge. Dude plays for a 15-win team.

 

[Chuck Taylor]

To add to RR7, the other players were called "bangers" by some other posters. I happen to believe that Lamarcus is an ideal compliment to Oden. I don't believe he's a "banger", but I don't believe the other players listed are "bangers", either.

I would say LA is probably more important to our team than the players on your list back when they were on their championship teams. But I agree with what you're saying. I also think LA is the ideal compliment to Oden. And if Oden comes back strong, LA is also the ideal #3 guy, IMO.

edit: grammar upgrade

 

[BGrantFan]

All morning call, so let's check out head-to-head this year on team splits.

1. Is Carlos Boozer better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.

Boozer 20 ppg, 13 rpg, Aldridge 20ppg, 9rpg

2. Is Paul Gasol better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.

Gasol 13ppg, 8 rpg, Aldridge 12 ppg, 7 rpg

3. Is Dirk Nowitzki better than Lamarcus Aldrige? Yep.

Dirk v. Portland - 23 ppg, 8 rpg, Aldridge v. Dallas 20ppg, 8 rpg

4. Is Amare Stoudemire better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.

Amare 23 ppg, 11 rpg, Aldridge 18 ppg, 7 rpg

5. Is Al Jefferson better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.

Jefferson 16 ppg, 9 rpg, Aldridge 15 ppg, 6 rpg

6. Is Tim Duncan better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.

Duncan 17 ppg, 10 rpg, Aldridge 19 ppg, 9 rpg

Conclusion? Not sure, but at first glance, it's not like Aldridge is being abused by these "better" PFs, and that was without help in the defensive paint for much of the season.

 

[BGrantFan]

I would say LA is probably more important to our team than the players on your list back when they were on their championship teams. But I agree with what you're saying. I also think LA is the ideal compliment to Oden. And if Oden comes back strong, LA is also the ideal #3 guy, IMO.

edit: grammar upgrade

That's pretty much where I'm coming from in this. If Oden doesn't pan out, then sure, it's clear that Aldridge won't be the physical presence needed to win a title. At that point, I'm all for exploring other options.

 

[RR7]

I probably didn't see your response if I didn't respond. I don't consider it a duty to patrol every thread and reply to every reply. Message boards are fun, but aren't a job.

Yeah, not asking you to patrol every reply. It's just funny how anytime someone seems to post a stat that disputes what you had been arguing about for the better part of an hour, THAT is when you're unable to respond. Maybe it's always coincidence.

Now as for your statement, you are saying that Lamarcus was this rank of #2 scorer. Fine that's great. But here is my problem with your statement. Stats don't tell the whole story. Teams like Orlando, Cleveland and LA don't often need their #2 scorer to pick up the load, because they have superior depth, team play, and spread the scoring love around much better. The other thing you fail to mention is that Lamarcus often would do all of his scoring in about 1 quarter and then dissappear for much of the rest of the game. If the dude would play 4 quarters one day, he could probably drop 40+. But he doesn't. He has a wonderful 16 point quarter. 3 quarters later he has 19.

Now you may disagree with this principal, but IMO, your #2 scorer needs to be able to score at a #1 scorer level when your #1 player is out. When Roy was out, Lamarcus rarely did that. When I am talking #1 scorer level, I am not saying just leading the team in scoring. I mean carrying the team in scoring. 25+ per game. It's called elevating your game in a time of need. It rarely happened.

Now, which other #2 scorers on playoff teams last season did that in the playoffs? You claimed he was a bad #2 option, because 19 PPG is more of a role player, and not #2 option. But I think Billups might have been the only #2 option to average more points. So he's not a good #2 option, but someone who averages less points is, because that person's #3 and 4 players are better than what we have, so they are able to share the scoring load. Aldridge scored more in the playoffs than Gasol or Rashard Lewis did, two teams who were in the Finals. But because Outlaw disappeared, that means Aldridge was a poor #2, whereas Gasol or Lewis would be a superior #2, averaging less points, because their #3 and 4 guys showed up. That's unfortunate for Aldridge that he not only has to step up his game beyond mere 19 PPG role player, but also has to make sure Outlaw and Rudy show up. I see.

Now last but not least go through western conference power forwards, go down the list, and consider each canidate and ask yourself are they better then Lamarcus Aldridge.

1. Is Carlos Boozer better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
2. Is Paul Gasol better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
3. Is Dirk Nowitzki better than Lamarcus Aldrige? Yep.
4. Is Amare Stoudemire better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
5. Is Al Jefferson better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.
6. Is Tim Duncan better than Lamarcus Aldridge? Yep.

15 teams in the western conference. 6 of them definitly have better PF than Aldridge. Those guys above, it is not even a question. 5 of those teams are playoff teams. So we have a disadvantage every night against them. It is not until you start talking about the David West, Luis Scola types that you are in the range of PF that Aldridge falls into. Above average. Not elite. If Aldridge played in the post more he could get there. But he doesn't.

So take your numbers as you will. There is getting it done, and not getting it done. They should record a stat for that.

Duncan's a C. Don't give me the PF with him. Especially when they cover Aldridge more with Bonner. No mismatch there. You can have Zach, err.. Al Jefferson all you want.
We have a disadvantage every night in the playoffs, yet gain one in different positions every night as well.
Aldridge this season against Utah and Dallas has averaged about 20 and 9. That's not a big mismatch against us. Especially when you consider Dirk is Dallas' #1 option, and Boozer is Utah's. Or, 1A to Deron's 1B. I don't see a big mismatch playing out.

 

[Chuck Taylor]

That's pretty much where I'm coming from in this. If Oden doesn't pan out, then sure, it's clear that Aldridge won't be the physical presence needed to win a title. At that point, I'm all for exploring other options.

Exactly.

While I know he's no bruiser, I have noticed LA playing more physically the past month or two - at least in stretches. It's nice to see he has it in him, although it makes me want to see more of it.

 

[BGrantFan]

Exactly.

While I know he's no bruiser, I have noticed LA playing more physically the past month or two - at least in stretches. It's nice to see he has it in him, although it makes me want to see more of it.

Aldridge has about a 20-game stretch this year where he averaged 20/10. That was without Camby, and Roy was out for much of it, but still, it was impressive, and the team stayed competitive playing Miller/Bayless/Webster/Aldridge/Howard together for extended minutes.