Carmelo Anthony?

[dino33]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jdroma @ May 13 2008, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I believe Melo is one of the most talented offensive play maker in the game right next to Kobe and Lebron. He can shoot the mid range jumper well, He has great strength and quickness for his slashing skills, and a very aggressive player in the post. The only flaw that I can see in him offensively is he needs to be more consistent on his 3 point shooting skill.

Defensively, Melo is a mediocre defender. He does not have a great foot work and he is not fast enough to guard fast slashing forwards. However, I still believe he can become an above average defender due to his talents. But we have to wait for his maturity to developed. That +/- in 82games.com can't be entirely true. You just can't blame one person on the defensive end. The whole Nuggets team does not play defense. And Even though he is not a good defender it doesn't mean he can't play at all. You just have to put him in a right team and the Nuggets are definitely not th right team.

I don't believe Carmelo is an overated player. He is a star player but not a hall of famer. But, I believe he can win a championship, you just have to build around him the right way. Like his college team. That team was build around him specifically. His teammates were good defender and he was the player that is running the show offensively. I think Melo's perfect team is a great defensive team. If we can acquire Melo and wants a chance to become championship contender we have to trade carter to 2 defensive minded 2guard and a powerforward. Maybe a good trade can be Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes For Carter if we acquire Melo. The line up will look like this:

Harris
Hughes
Melo
Gooden
Diop?/Krstic?/Boone?</div>

Thts what im trying to say, Melo is better with a defensive minded team, NOT the Nets.

Melo is not suited well with the nets, the nets are far from a defensive minded team prob utah could use him.

 

[Astral]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ May 12 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ May 12 2008, 08:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ May 12 2008, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Last year's rebounding numbers for Forwards:

Lamar Odom - 10.6 RPG (Combo Forward)
Shawn Marion & Antawn Jamison - 10.2 RPG (Combo Forwards)
Josh Smith - 8.2 RPG (Combo Forward)
Lebron James - 7.9 RPG
Carmelo Anthony - 7.4 RPG
Josh Howard - 7.0 RPG

So Melo was 6th in that group out of guys you can consider Small forwards, and the top 4 are combo forwards (with only Josh Smith being more of a SF). Then you have Lebron, and then Melo. So how is that "average"?</div>
You are correct - strictly on RPG ratings.
However, using a more advanced rebounding statistic which factors in rebounding chances etc, Anthony's not nearly as high up. (http://www.82games.com/RESORT16.HTM) Anthony has a rebounding rating of 19.7, below Josh Howard, Al Harrington, Ryan Gomes, Yi, Mikki Moore, Brandon Bass, Jamario Moon and countless others who aren't considered great rebounders.

</div>

None of those players has Marcus Camby literally fighting him for rebounds. Camby knocks players on his team out of the way to inflate his own rebounding numbers. Additionally, Melo was instructed for a significant portion of the season to leak out for fast breaks instead of fighting for rebounds. His rebounding numbers skyrocketed when his focus was changed.

If you watched Melo play instead of just reviewing the stats, you'd know he is a much better rebounder than you are portraying him as.
</div>Even if what you said about Camby is correct, it doesn't happen enough to make a real difference. He has 4 other people on the floor. If we assume that he "takes away" 2 rebounds per game on average (which is probably a gross overstatement), that's half a rebound per game.
Plus, Nuggets have a very poor rebounding guard combination. That offsets it.

Again, if we assume that you're right and he was instructed to run into fast breaks, what about the previous seasons, when he was an even worse rebounder? Was he also instructed to do so since he came into the NBA.. or is that simple what Anthony usually does?

How do you know I haven't watched him play? Seriously, this is ridiculous.
When I say "he misses defensive assignments all the time", pegs screams at me that I'm making up stuff.
When I come up with facts, I get blamed for not watching the game.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He sucks because he's too good?</div>
Compared to a typical small forward, he's too good.
Compared to a superstar, he sucks.

If you want to argue that he's too good, admit that you're comparing him to an average player.
If you want to compare him to other superstars, admit that he sucks because he severely lacks the all-around skills of a superstar.

 

[kdub]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 12 2008, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kdub @ May 12 2008, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 12 2008, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>"one dimensional"
"adequate rebounder"
"can't play defense"

Blah blah blah.

Obviously you've never seen him or the Nuggets play, and are only basing that off stats...because that doesn't even sound right. (You're doing it wrong)

Besides, since when are Allen Iverson and Anthony Carter good defenders? And since when isn't Marcus Camby a good defender?</div>

That -3.0 +/- rating that Astral linked to does look pretty bad though.
</div>

It also makes JR Smith look like a good defender. Don't believe everything you read.
</div>

Oh don't worry, I'm not. I think Carmelo is a very talented player, but I'd rather not have him here.

 

[GMJ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ May 12 2008, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Compared to a typical small forward, he's too good.</div>

Isn't that the bottom line here?


Alright so he's not as good as, say, Kobe. Now what?

 

[pegs]

How does one scream on a message board?

 

[#1_War_Poet_ForLife]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 12 2008, 10:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How does one scream on a message board?</div>
Youtube.

 

[pegs]

Carmelo Anthony isn't worse at defending than JR, AI, or Anthony Carter. So he's not the only one contributing to your stats there, Astral.

What I'm saying is that you can't necessarily use stats to point out if someone's a good defender or bad defender, you have to actually watch the game. And it's not simply about one player's defense that allows the other team to score more points, it's about team defense as well.

And "misses defensive assignments"? What's that supposed to mean? He forgets he's guarding opposing players, and just stands around?

Also, you can't just point to one season. You have to look at past seasons, as well. Remember pre-Karl, pre-AI? http://www.nba.com/nuggets/stats/2003/index.html

They limited opponents to 96 points. How do you attribute that? Miller, Barry, and Boykins' amazing defense?

Your argument about Carmelo being that bad of a defender doesn't sound too good now. And that he isn't a superstar? Well, how many other players in the NBA have averaged 20+ points over their first 5 years? And how many players averaged 25+ and 7+ this year? I'll give you a clue: It's 3 guys whom some would consider superstars. And to add, another player averaging 28 and 6... http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scori...mp;season=22007

 

[Astral]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 12 2008, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Carmelo Anthony isn't worse at defending than JR, AI, or Anthony Carter. So he's not the only one contributing to your stats there, Astral.</div>I agree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>What I'm saying is that you can't necessarily use stats to point out if someone's a good defender or bad defender, you have to actually watch the game. And it's not simply about one player's defense that allows the other team to score more points, it's about team defense as well.</div>I said I watched plenty of his games. Not as many as you, but plenty enough to be familiar with him. Assuming makes an ass out of U. Remember that one?

By the way, I didn't use stats to show that he's a poor defender, outside of the +/-. There are plenty of people who are much more familiar with the NBA than both me and you who agree and say that Anthony is a pretty bad defender.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And "misses defensive assignments"? What's that supposed to mean? He forgets he's guarding opposing players, and just stands around?</div>You know what it means. Gets lost on pick and rolls, doesn't close out on his man on the perimeter, etc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Also, you can't just point to one season. You have to look at past seasons, as well. Remember pre-Karl, pre-AI? http://www.nba.com/nuggets/stats/2003/index.html

They limited opponents to 96 points. How do you attribute that? Miller, Barry, and Boykins' amazing defense?</div>
Pace.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2004.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2008.html
Look at the defensive rating for the teams across the years. This year's team is actually better than that one, compared to the league average.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Your argument about Carmelo being that bad of a defender doesn't sound too good now. And that he isn't a superstar? Well, how many other players in the NBA have averaged 20+ points over their first 5 years? And how many players averaged 25+ and 7+ this year? I'll give you a clue: It's 3 guys whom some would consider superstars. And to add, another player averaging 28 and 6... http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scori...mp;season=22007</div>
And that's where the comparisons stop. The top man who's averaging more than 25 also has 7 rpg and 7apg, which is Oscar Robertson territory.
The second one made the All-NBA defensive team, put up 1 rebound less from SG position and 5 assists to go with it.
Iverson puts up 7apg from virtually a SG position, along with 2 steals and an MVP trophy.

This is what I'm trying to say. Look at the current and recent superstars in the NBA.
Kobe's a perennial 25/5/5 with almost lock down D.
LeBron is mini-Oscar.
Shaq was a dominating scorer AND a very good defender, rebounder and leader.
Nash, while weak defensively, revolutionized the league offense
McGrady is another 25/5/5 talent.
Wade is unstoppable off the drive, developed a jumper recently, is a good defender and a great playmaker.
Yao is a great post and mid range scorer, a good rebounder and a good defender.
Kidd was an all around player with a suspect jumpshot.
Paul's a great scorer, a good shooter, a great playmaker and a very good defender. Same for Deron.
Even Dirk, known as the softy, knows how to bang inside, shoots like Bird, gets his share of boards and commits on defense.

Ask yourself: besides SCORING, what else can Anthony do well? He's not a great shooter, he's an adequate rebounder, his defense is VERY questionable (notice how NOONE even dared to say he's a good defender), he's not a good playmaker, he turns the ball over a lot.
What else is Anthony good at?

 

[Kid Chocolate]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ May 12 2008, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pegs @ May 12 2008, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Carmelo Anthony isn't worse at defending than JR, AI, or Anthony Carter. So he's not the only one contributing to your stats there, Astral.</div>I agree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>What I'm saying is that you can't necessarily use stats to point out if someone's a good defender or bad defender, you have to actually watch the game. And it's not simply about one player's defense that allows the other team to score more points, it's about team defense as well.</div>I said I watched plenty of his games. Not as many as you, but plenty enough to be familiar with him. Assuming makes an ass out of U. Remember that one?

By the way, I didn't use stats to show that he's a poor defender, outside of the +/-. There are plenty of people who are much more familiar with the NBA than both me and you who agree and say that Anthony is a pretty bad defender.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And "misses defensive assignments"? What's that supposed to mean? He forgets he's guarding opposing players, and just stands around?</div>You know what it means. Gets lost on pick and rolls, doesn't close out on his man on the perimeter, etc.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Also, you can't just point to one season. You have to look at past seasons, as well. Remember pre-Karl, pre-AI? http://www.nba.com/nuggets/stats/2003/index.html

They limited opponents to 96 points. How do you attribute that? Miller, Barry, and Boykins' amazing defense?</div>
Pace.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2004.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/2008.html
Look at the defensive rating for the teams across the years. This year's team is actually better than that one, compared to the league average.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Your argument about Carmelo being that bad of a defender doesn't sound too good now. And that he isn't a superstar? Well, how many other players in the NBA have averaged 20+ points over their first 5 years? And how many players averaged 25+ and 7+ this year? I'll give you a clue: It's 3 guys whom some would consider superstars. And to add, another player averaging 28 and 6... http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scori...mp;season=22007</div>
And that's where the comparisons stop. The top man who's averaging more than 25 also has 7 rpg and 7apg, which is Oscar Robertson territory.
The second one made the All-NBA defensive team, put up 1 rebound less from SG position and 5 assists to go with it.
Iverson puts up 7apg from virtually a SG position, along with 2 steals and an MVP trophy.

This is what I'm trying to say. Look at the current and recent superstars in the NBA.
Kobe's a perennial 25/5/5 with almost lock down D.
LeBron is mini-Oscar.
Shaq was a dominating scorer AND a very good defender, rebounder and leader.
Nash, while weak defensively, revolutionized the league offense
McGrady is another 25/5/5 talent.
Wade is unstoppable off the drive, developed a jumper recently, is a good defender and a great playmaker.
Yao is a great post and mid range scorer, a good rebounder and a good defender.
Kidd was an all around player with a suspect jumpshot.
Paul's a great scorer, a good shooter, a great playmaker and a very good defender. Same for Deron.
Even Dirk, known as the softy, knows how to bang inside, shoots like Bird, gets his share of boards and commits on defense.

Ask yourself: besides SCORING, what else can Anthony do well? He's not a great shooter, he's an adequate rebounder, his defense is VERY questionable (notice how NOONE even dared to say he's a good defender), he's not a good playmaker, he turns the ball over a lot.
What else is Anthony good at?
</div>

If he's a scorer, why would it matter if he's not a great shooter? Why would he need to be a playmaker, if he's a scorer? You're spinning your wheels.

 

[pegs]

Wait, he's not a good shooter now? Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Carmelo Anthony, not a good shooter? Yeah, okay.

Oh, and Carmelo's role on the Nuggets is to score. Not to be a playmaker. They already have Iverson trying to make plays. He's supposed to be their main playmaker, ballhandler, etc. It was the same thing when they had Miller.

 

[ly_yng]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ May 12 2008, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, you can realistically max three players on your team.

Are you saying it's not wise for one of them to be Melo?

The Nets are a long way from being a finished product. If there's a chance to make a major upgrade like this right away, it sure would make the rebuilding process easier.</div>

Yeah, but at what cost? If we trade Sean and Boone with RJ for Carmelo, we've got three wing players and no talent in the frontcourt. Going off the assumption that we can't move Carter and don't want to move Harris, then that's the foreseeable future of the team, should a trade like that go down.

I'm all for upgrading assets. I think if you can get more than you give, you probably should, especially when you're rebuilding. But it would be too easy for Thorn to make a deal like that and give the team a big DONE stamp going into next year, when really that team would be destined for about 50 wins and a second round exit to Detroit or Boston.

I'm just trying to say that Harris seems like a cost-effective asset we'll want to keep, and that we don't have a chance in hell at moving Carter. We don't have a lot of flexibility as far as rebuilding goes - anything short of a dramatic improvement to the frontcourt is probably going to be a lateral move that's just going to handcuff the team worse.

 

[ly_yng]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrandKenyon6 @ May 12 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ May 12 2008, 04:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>

Unless we're getting an All-Star big man, this team is never going to be a championship contender. I agree Melo is a great player, but there just aren't enough basketballs for him, Carter and Harris.

I just don't buy that a loaded backcourt can win you a title. You could give me the Nets roster with Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant and Manu Ginobli, in place of Harris, Carter and RJ and I still don't think they would be a title contender.</div>

I agree to an extent. It's true that no team with a loaded backcourt and nothing up front will ever win a title, but the addition of Anthony would place the Nets in a significantly better position than they are in right now. The Nets need to focus on improving any way they can. They're not going to become a title contender overnight.

As for there not being enough game balls for Melo, Carter, and Harris, I disagree completely. Carter is a very unselfish player who would be better suited and more comfortable as a 2nd option. Harris isn't selfish either, he's just not a very good play-maker. Anyway, they would certainly be able to share the ball.
</div>

I like Harris, Melo and Carter a lot, but none of them are particularly effective when moving without the ball. They all need the ball in their hands to be effective, regardless of whether they are shooting or passing - in theory, Melo and Carter should both be killer spot up shooters, but I don't think either of them has ever embraced a role like that.

It's just the economics of the NBA. Unless you're getting a great value over contract like a LeBron James or a Tim Duncan, you can't survive without all of your assets being signed to appropriately priced (or under market) contracts. But even then, that's not enough - you need players who don't compete with each other to express their value.

I just don't see the NEXT move after acquiring Melo, because that team as constructed can't win a title.

 

[Claud]

I would love to have melo in jersey. I can see DH and melo working good together. Melo would make us that much better and we would be heading in the right direction with the rebuilding process. After this all we need is a legit Big man and we are set.
Whoever said camby is bad defensively is out of their minds and dont know jack about the NBA.
If possible Kiki make this trade happen it will benefit us. One step closer to being a great team once again.

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ May 12 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Even if what you said about Camby is correct, it doesn't happen enough to make a real difference. He has 4 other people on the floor. If we assume that he "takes away" 2 rebounds per game on average (which is probably a gross overstatement), that's half a rebound per game.</div>

Wrong. It happens on average 3 to 4 times a game just to Melo.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Plus, Nuggets have a very poor rebounding guard combination. That offsets it.</div>

No it doesn't. You are attempting to use an "advanced" statistic and make it fit the Nuggets instead of the other, proper way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Again, if we assume that you're right and he was instructed to run into fast breaks, what about the previous seasons, when he was an even worse rebounder? Was he also instructed to do so since he came into the NBA.. or is that simple what Anthony usually does?</div>

It was what he was told to do since Karl became coach. As a rookie, Melo averaged 6.1 RPG.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>How do you know I haven't watched him play? Seriously, this is ridiculous.
When I say "he misses defensive assignments all the time", pegs screams at me that I'm making up stuff.
When I come up with facts, I get blamed for not watching the game.</div>

If you watched him play, you wouldn't be making asinine comments about his rebounding. Saying he misses defensive assignments all the time is spouting conventional wisdom which also isn't correct.

Melo is inconsistent on defense and does miss some defensive rotations. However, he also plays fine man to man defensive when given a challenge. The problem is that Melo picks up too many offensive fouls (the majority of both his fouls and turnovers) to be left with such defensive assignments.

 

[cpawfan]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ May 12 2008, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Even Dirk, known as the softy, knows how to bang inside, shoots like Bird, gets his share of boards and commits on defense.</div>

You've now gone from the asinine to the insane. Melo has a better post game than Dirk, doesn't get taken out of his game by people like Bowen and Posey and is a better individual defender than Dirk.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ask yourself: besides SCORING, what else can Anthony do well?

He's not a great shooter,</div>

Melo's TS was .568 last season and Kobe's was .576

Are you attempting to say that the line for great shooter is somewhere between those two numbers?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>he's an adequate rebounder,</div>

Still wrong

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>his defense is VERY questionable (notice how NOONE even dared to say he's a good defender),</div>

Nowhere near as bad as you are attempting to portray it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>he's not a good playmaker, he turns the ball over a lot.</div>

The majority of his turnovers are offensive fouls. Melo is a fine play maker and one the many problems Nuggets fans have with Karl is that Melo doesn't get the ball enough in a position to be a play maker. Additionally, Karl doesn't have the big men cutting enough to take advantage of it. Once or twice a game, Melo will make a play to Kenyon or Najera and Nuggets fans scream at Karl asking for more of it.

Melo is held back by poor coaching and capable of much more.

 

[Astral]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Wrong. It happens on average 3 to 4 times a game just to Melo.</div>

If that was true, this would have a lot more publicity than it currently does. It sounds like a conspiracy theory right now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>No it doesn't. You are attempting to use an "advanced" statistic and make it fit the Nuggets instead of the other, proper way.</div>I'm not using an advanced rebounding statistic for this, but pure logic.
If you have a player who can rebound well from the guard position, say Jason Kidd, your big men will get less rebounds than if you had someone like Iverson.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Again, if we assume that you're right and he was instructed to run into fast breaks, what about the previous seasons, when he was an even worse rebounder? Was he also instructed to do so since he came into the NBA.. or is that simple what Anthony usually does?</div>

It was what he was told to do since Karl became coach. As a rookie, Melo averaged 6.1 RPG.
</div>
How does that prove your point?
Melo played for more than a year without Karl, and averaged 6.1 rpg, which happens to be his career rebounding average. Then Karl came in, told him to run FBs instead of grabbing rebounds... and his rebounding average pretty much stayed the same?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>How do you know I haven't watched him play? Seriously, this is ridiculous.
When I say "he misses defensive assignments all the time", pegs screams at me that I'm making up stuff.
When I come up with facts, I get blamed for not watching the game.</div>

If you watched him play, you wouldn't be making asinine comments about his rebounding. Saying he misses defensive assignments all the time is spouting conventional wisdom which also isn't correct.

Melo is inconsistent on defense and does miss some defensive rotations. However, he also plays fine man to man defensive when given a challenge. The problem is that Melo picks up too many offensive fouls (the majority of both his fouls and turnovers) to be left with such defensive assignments.
</div>
Melo had 55 offensive fouls over the course of the season. That's not a majority of his fouls 55/254=20% or his turnovers 55/253=20%.

 

[Astral]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ May 13 2008, 07:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Astral @ May 12 2008, 11:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Even Dirk, known as the softy, knows how to bang inside, shoots like Bird, gets his share of boards and commits on defense.</div>

You've now gone from the asinine to the insane. Melo has a better post game than Dirk, doesn't get taken out of his game by people like Bowen and Posey and is a better individual defender than Dirk.</div>
We agree to disagree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ask yourself: besides SCORING, what else can Anthony do well?

He's not a great shooter,</div>

Melo's TS was .568 last season and Kobe's was .576

Are you attempting to say that the line for great shooter is somewhere between those two numbers?</div>
Being a great shooting doesn't lie in numbers that much. Being a good shooter is being Michael Redd, Ray Allen, Peja.
Kobe's a decent shooter.

Melo is not someone you want taking a three, come off a catch and shoot or spot up anywhere outside of 18 feet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>he's an adequate rebounder,</div>

Still wrong</div>Prove it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>his defense is VERY questionable (notice how NOONE even dared to say he's a good defender),</div>

Nowhere near as bad as you are attempting to portray it.</div>
Sure, not me. I posted 2 links. One of them says that Anthony would make the author's annual "no-defense" team, the other called his defense "atrocious" (or something like that).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>he's not a good playmaker, he turns the ball over a lot.</div>

The majority of his turnovers are offensive fouls. Melo is a fine play maker and one the many problems Nuggets fans have with Karl is that Melo doesn't get the ball enough in a position to be a play maker. Additionally, Karl doesn't have the big men cutting enough to take advantage of it. Once or twice a game, Melo will make a play to Kenyon or Najera and Nuggets fans scream at Karl asking for more of it.

Melo is held back by poor coaching and capable of much more.
</div>
We must be watching different people. The guy I watch takes most of the shots, some of which are just plain horrible.
Hell, even on team USA Anthony mostly just shot. I mean, Michael Redd has more assists on team USA than does Anthony.
http://www.usabasketball.com/men_team.php?page=msnt_stats

 

[danxcr]

ahh well its just a suggestion guys... when it becomes a rumor and kiki and denver start talkin than we can have more of a reason to fight

hehe

GO NETS

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng @ May 13 2008, 02:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti @ May 12 2008, 10:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Dude, you can realistically max three players on your team.

Are you saying it's not wise for one of them to be Melo?

The Nets are a long way from being a finished product. If there's a chance to make a major upgrade like this right away, it sure would make the rebuilding process easier.</div>

Yeah, but at what cost? If we trade Sean and Boone with RJ for Carmelo, we've got three wing players and no talent in the frontcourt. Going off the assumption that we can't move Carter and don't want to move Harris, then that's the foreseeable future of the team, should a trade like that go down.

I'm all for upgrading assets. I think if you can get more than you give, you probably should, especially when you're rebuilding. But it would be too easy for Thorn to make a deal like that and give the team a big DONE stamp going into next year, when really that team would be destined for about 50 wins and a second round exit to Detroit or Boston.

I'm just trying to say that Harris seems like a cost-effective asset we'll want to keep, and that we don't have a chance in hell at moving Carter. We don't have a lot of flexibility as far as rebuilding goes - anything short of a dramatic improvement to the frontcourt is probably going to be a lateral move that's just going to handcuff the team worse.
</div>

You are now getting to the reason why I started a thread with the premise that Thorn should be fired solely for giving Carter his contract. How did he not know that he needed a blank slate to rebuild? He actually thought this team was some kind of contender. Someone that clueless shouldn't be running things.

So he's made Kiki's job harder, but not impossible. As I see it, the Nets don't have any assets (including Boone and Sean) that are worth hanging onto for the future if the benefit of trading them is getting a real young star to build a proper roster around. (Still, there's no reason to trade the entire frontcourt.)

No matter what you read here, Carmelo Anthony is good enough to get that ball rolling. The Carter problem can be worked out in many ways - including keeping him for the length of his deal if that becomes necessary.

Also, don't forget how valuable Devin Harris has become. If the goal is to reshape the team into a championship level group, Kiki won't be a pussy like Thorn. He'll make a move to get the right combination of players and he won't hem and haw for six years while holding onto something that clearly doesn't work.

 

[Jizzy]

well, all i gotta say is, i would LOVE to have melo in a nets jersey.

 

[dino33]

From the arguments you guys are making,

I can see how Melo is a potential superstar.
I can see that Melo is perhaps not underrated.

but,

I do not see how he fits the Nets current system.
I do not see why we should trade RJ for Melo but not a bigman or a decent shooter+picks.

 

[User01]

I don't see why necessarily people are saying they would rather trade RJ for an all star big instead of Melo, when he could be an all star big for us. He has the wingspan and athleticism to play the 4, he may be a bit undersized, but he's about as big as guys like Elton Brand, Andrei Kirilenko, David Lee, Josh Smith, Luol Deng, Danny Granger, Carlos Boozer, Rudy Gay, Jason Maxiell and David West, and Smith and Gay are the only two there that are probably as athletic as him. He won't be great at either spot on defense, but on offense, he is one of the best at posting up, and he could abuse opposing 4s with his speed. He also can rebound well enough to be a power forward.

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (User01 @ May 13 2008, 11:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't see why necessarily people are saying they would rather trade RJ for an all star big instead of Melo, when he could be an all star big for us. He has the wingspan and athleticism to play the 4, he may be a bit undersized, but he's about as big as guys like Elton Brand, Andrei Kirilenko, David Lee, Josh Smith, Luol Deng, Danny Granger, Carlos Boozer, Rudy Gay, Jason Maxiell and David West, and Smith and Gay are the only two there that are probably as athletic as him. He won't be great at either spot on defense, but on offense, he is one of the best at posting up, and he could abuse opposing 4s with his speed. He also can rebound well enough to be a power forward.</div>

Melo can do anything Antawn Jamison can do and a lot more, and nobody blinks when Jamison's referred to as a PF.

 

[Kid Chocolate]

Melo could easily play PF, as he did on Team USA. But that was against shorter, un-athletic players. One of the biggest things that Melo has developed since coming into the league has been the physicality of his offensive game, to the point where if anyone smaller guards him, he just punishes them down low.

 

[Astral]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jdroma @ May 13 2008, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry but, I have to jump in to this argument and I'm pretty sure Astral is wrong about Melo Being overrated

So your argument is about Melo's defense is so bad, when he is on the court the opposite team scores easier.

I can't argue with you about Melo being a horrible defender because it is true however, he is not as bad as you are putting him out to be. You can't blame Melo for the whole Nuggets from being a horrible defensive team because defense is not only one player its the whole team contributing.</div>
1) You just admitted he's horrible on D.
2) Just because the whole team is bad defensively doesn't mean Carmelo is good defensively. Two wrongs don't make a right.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You say he is a bad defender because he gets lost on pick and roll situations right?

That does not make a player a bad defender. Defending a pick and roll is all about communicating to your teammate. Maybe the Nuggets don't communicate when there are pick and roll situations. Melo is a bad defender because of his footwork. He is not fast enough to follow fast small forwards around.</div>
1) "maybe" - you're just guessing.
2) Considering Anthony is the one that gets lost a lot, chances are he's the one at fault. He plays with something like 6-7 different teammates per game. A few of them are probably not communicating well. What about others? All 6 or 7 can't be bad communicators. Probability is very high against it.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Another one of your argument is Melo is not a good shooter either and you said his shot selection are just plain wrong

Since you like using 82games a lot lets check out this stats on Nba Shooting Stats. Here is a link: http://www.82games.com/FGSORT7.HTM

Melo is an average shooter he is not horrible at it. As you can see from the on 82 games. He mostly takes midrange which is 51%(average about 9-10 since he takes 19 shots per game) and the FG is .404%. Which is not bad considering he is a scorer not a shooter. He is pretty efficient downtown since he only shoots about 2 shots a game and 96% of his shots comes from assist. So you can say about Melo is that shooting is not his strong point but, he can make his shots and a pretty efficient shooter since 96% of his 3 point shots comes from assist and 50% of his midrange shots comes assist.</div>
Uhm.. lol.
Let's recap.
My argument: Melo is not a good shooter
You say: Which is not bad considering he is a scorer not a shooter.

By the way, taking shots from an assist doesn't make you a shooting. Do you mind explaining where you see the correlation?

So you said Melo is an adequate rebounder

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You cannot say Melo is a adequate rebounder when he averages 7.4 rpg which is top 10 among small forwards. I can prove he is a good rebounder by his talent. Ok, what makes a player a good rebounder? I player would need to have a good hands to grab the boards, good upper body strength to jump over people, and good athleticism to jump high. I'm pretty Melo has all of that in his talent to be a pretty good rebounder</div>I don't think you've followed the argument over the course of these 5 long pages (which isn't your fault :/). In one of the links I posted, it shows that when factoring in how many opportunities to rebound Anthony had, he's not very good at all.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And your last argument is that he is not a superstar.

You said TMAC is a superstar which he average 25/5/5 so I'm guessing your consider Vince Carter a superstar because he average 25/5/5 last year. However, VC's early years he was averaging 3 assist per game. Which Melo's averaging right now.

You gotta remember Melo is only 24 years old. He still did not reach his Full Potential Yet. Once he matures he will be as good as a superstar.</div>I agree with most of what you said. However, the argument is about NOW, not what he could become. Hell, he could develop off court issues and become a cancer ala Artest.

Btw, while Carter did average 4 apg in the early years, he consistently got around 6rpg... from the SHOOTING GUARD position. Add to that a block, a steal and amazingly enough, a very low amount of turnovers for a star shooting guard.
If Toronto's GM wasn't such a retard and actually surrounded him with talent and prevented Raptors from fading into mediocrity, we could be talking about Carter in the same breath as Kobe. Although even that does not assure that Carter would have developed a closer's mentality.

 

[MaxaMillion711]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>we could be talking about Carter in the same breath as Kobe.</div>

uh oh..not smart to mention carter and kobe in the same sentence...your just asking for an e-beatdown now...

 

[danxcr]

i dont think melo is the 4 type banger we need... we need a banger... like gets boards, post up, and plays good D down low... our front court is pretty weak offensively and defensively... heh ya we get blocks... but our 1v1 post is horrendous...

and krstic... omg.. he catches it in the post and turns it into a 20ft jumpshot...

 

[pegs]

TMac is a 3-dimensional player!! How dare you compare him to Vince, a 2-dimensional player!

 

[kdub]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danxcr @ May 14 2008, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>i dont think melo is the 4 type banger we need... we need a banger... like gets boards, post up, and plays good D down low... our front court is pretty weak offensively and defensively... heh ya we get blocks... but our 1v1 post is horrendous...

and krstic... omg.. he catches it in the post and turns it into a 20ft jumpshot...</div>

Well, we can hope that Boone/Sean become that post presence. Boone already provides rebounding and defense, and Sean provides weakside blocks. Hopefully one of them will also develop a post game, although Sean seems to developing a nice 16 foot jumper.

 

[danxcr]

well i hope so too that sean or josh can be develop a good post game... but i want them to be lock down on D esp on the post...