Cervelli Traded to Pirates

[Yankeefan5545]

I think AJ Burnett was nick named Cooter on one of his former teams. There's another "class act", the man pitches for Pittsburgh, opts out of his deal, goes to Philly, flubs the dub, and comes back to Pittsburgh, I don't think any one else would have wanted him. I am surprised that the Pirates took him back and of course he's getting praise for taking 8 mil from Pittsburgh instead of 12 mil with Philly. The man simply stunk.

 

[Rick2583]

I think AJ Burnett was nick named Cooter on one of his former teams. There's another "class act", the man pitches for Pittsburgh, opts out of his deal, goes to Philly, flubs the dub, and comes back to Pittsburgh, I don't think any one else would have wanted him. I am surprised that the Pirates took him back and of course he's getting praise for taking 8 mil from Pittsburgh instead of 12 mil with Philly. The man simply stunk.

I saw that also, after an 8-18 season with an ERA near 5 he's lucky anyone offered him a contract.

 

[totus44]

...huh?

Lol! ARod and Braun were the biogenesis posterboys. Bosch used these guys to sucker the others that his stuff was on the up and up. If you go back and look at some of Cervi's interviews, it was pretty obvious the kid got taken in a con. He's about the least offensive so-called PED convict in MLB. Footer should read Cooter, damn google autocorrect.

Anyway Rick has made a history of being derogatory towards Cervelli the past two years and frankly it pisses me off because it was entirely baseless. He's a guy that was never projected to be anything in MLB, and now he's got a legit shot as a starter. Good for him. I admired his enthusiasm and grit which helped make up for his talent deficit. If more players played like him, it would be a far better game.

 

[Rick2583]

Lol! ARod and Braun were the biogenesis posterboys. Bosch used these guys to sucker the others that his stuff was on the up and up. If you go back and look at some of Cervi's interviews, it was pretty obvious the kid got taken in a con. He's about the least offensive so-called PED convict in MLB. Footer should read Cooter, damn google autocorrect.

Anyway Rick has made a history of being derogatory towards Cervelli the past two years and frankly it pisses me off because it was entirely baseless. He's a guy that was never projected to be anything in MLB, and now he's got a legit shot as a starter. Good for him. I admired his enthusiasm and grit which helped make up for his talent deficit. If more players played like him, it would be a far better game.

LOL you must be getting me mixed up with someone else because I don't recall EVER saying anything drastic against Cervelli & I know I NEVER said I hated the guy as you made up. Its amazing how you continue to read more into what others post then is actually there. But by all means, whatever floats your boat.

 

[yankeesince59]

...ahhh, Cooter...now it makes sense. (I couldn't figure out who the hell "Footer" was)

...I like Cervelli's fiery demeanor and he's a good catcher...but as far as him and others being suckered, no one held a gun to any of the suspended players' heads. They chose to break the rules and they paid the price for it. And none of them aside from ARod even appealed their suspension or claimed to be innocent...because they knew they were guilty.

...but right, wrong, or indifferent, I do agree with Rick that the stain will follow him.




...just my 2 cents.

 

[totus44]

...ahhh, Cooter...now it makes sense. (I couldn't figure out who the hell "Footer" was)

...I like Cervelli's fiery demeanor and he's a good catcher...but as far as him and others being suckered, no one held a gun to any of the suspended players' heads. They chose to break the rules and they paid the price for it. And none of them aside from ARod even appealed their suspension or claimed to be innocent...because they knew they were guilty.

...but right, wrong, or indifferent, I do agree with Rick that the stain will follow him.




...just my 2 cents.

I get you. Its a matter of record that Bosch lied to his clients. I think more than a few didn't knowingly know they were "cheating". Braun and ARod were guilt as sin, no question. Cisco was on the DL at the time, so how was he enhancing his performance? If you want to make the case that it sped up his recovery, than I can say the same about antiinflammatory drugs and pain killers as post-op surgery care.

 

[yankeesince59]

I get you. Its a matter of record that Bosch lied to his clients. I think more than a few didn't knowingly know they were "cheating". Braun and ARod were guilt as sin, no question. Cisco was on the DL at the time, so how was he enhancing his performance? If you want to make the case that it sped up his recovery, than I can say the same about antiinflammatory drugs and pain killers as post-op surgery care.

...but anti-inflammatories and pain killers are not on the list forbidden by MLB...furthermore, why did Cisco feel the need to bypass the physicians provided by the Yanx and seek out a quack like Bosch?...no, he knew exactly what he was doing. He just didn't think he'd get caught...and he was wrong.

 

[totus44]

...but anti-inflammatories and pain killers are not on the list forbidden by MLB...furthermore, why did Cisco feel the need to bypass the physicians provided by the Yanx and seek out a quack like Bosch?...no, he knew exactly what he was doing. He just didn't think he'd get caught...and he was wrong.

That's not the way I read his case. He gets told by ARod this guy helped me after surgery...yadda yadda. He's a team mate, did a mea culpa, heck works with an anti-PED foundation to keep kids clean. Now Cisco ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, not saying he's smart. I think he was majorly naive, but dont get any sense that he was knowingly trying to avert the process. As for Yanx physicians....these guys are being actively managed and handled, they are left for the most part to be responsible for their rehab. They have a minimal number of team requirements. If it were as you suggest, then I doubt any of these guys get into trouble.

 

[Rick2583]

I loved the kids enthusiasm & I really hope he can have a decent career where ever he ends up but like it or not & for what ever reason he is scared.

 

[yankeesince59]

Quote Originally Posted by totus44 View Post
That's not the way I read his case. He gets told by ARod this guy helped me after surgery...yadda yadda. He's a team mate, did a mea culpa, heck works with an anti-PED foundation to keep kids clean. Now Cisco ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, not saying he's smart. I think he was majorly naive, but dont get any sense that he was knowingly trying to avert the process. As for Yanx physicians....these guys are being actively managed and handled, they are left for the most part to be responsible for their rehab. They have a minimal number of team requirements. If it were as you suggest, then I doubt any of these guys get into trouble.

...every one of the players ever busted for PEDs was trying to take a short cut...they all had access to quality doctors provided free by their employers...they chose another route.

...like I said, no matter how you spin it, Cervelli and the others cheated...and they got caught.

...and as the saying goes; "Ignorance is no excuse".

 

[totus44]

...every one of the players ever busted for PEDs was trying to take a short cut...they all had access to quality doctors provided free by their employers...they chose another route.

...like I said, no matter how you spin it, Cervelli and the others cheated...and they got caught.

...and as the saying goes; "Ignorance is no excuse".

Have to disagree. You go to a guy posing as a doc that seems legit, helping other big name stars, etc. You ask if this is on the up and up, says its vitamins and natural products...he even had product lit that looks authentic. I'm sorry, you want these kids to get samples and have them go to the handy MLB drug analysis lab? Bosch was a drug dealer bent on getting people hooked on the results. I agree with your take in were talking BALCO, but Biogenesis was a much different situation.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

TOTE: Can you answer the last paragraph of this thread, and provide your 2 cents, dime, quarter or Andrew Jackson, Ben Franklin; would be better..???

You know, I hate to say this, as I have said some very strong words over PED Users, yet all along, I realize its only a matter of years, perhaps a decade, before MLB wakes up and allows certain Steroids for Post Surgical Recovery.

Hell, you or I could have major surgery, and obtain Roids other than Cortisone in a Hospital to knock down inflammation; arthritic joints, muscles, et al. Only for Post Surgery recovery tho, not for Enhanced Play, but enhanced recovery.

After all that is a Surgeon's approach if necessary for a serious surgery to heal quicker, and not allow inflammation to grow exponentially out of control....

I do believe this could easily be done, reported, and waivers filed by a Player after PS, yet continue to be monitored for a specific amount of time, until said player is healed and rehabbed, ready to play ball.....

Hell I don't know, just saying.....I do foresee this happening in the future, while MLB continues to monitor for Enhancement Drug Use.....I don't foresee a prob, unless I am missing something. At the same time, masking agent testing should be in place in how long????

 

[yankeesince59]

Have to disagree. You go to a guy posing as a doc that seems legit, helping other big name stars, etc. You ask if this is on the up and up, says its vitamins and natural products...he even had product lit that looks authentic. I'm sorry, you want these kids to get samples and have them go to the handy MLB drug analysis lab? Bosch was a drug dealer bent on getting people hooked on the results. I agree with your take in were talking BALCO, but Biogenesis was a much different situation.

...one more time..."ignorance is no excuse".

...and you're talking about theoretical scenarios...I'm talking about factual events.

...the ole "the dog ate my homework" does not wash here. He knew the rules and he broke them, plain and simple. Spin it however you want but the kid got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

 

[totus44]

TOTE: Can you answer the last paragraph of this thread, and provide your 2 cents, dime, quarter or Andrew Jackson, Ben Franklin; would be better..???

You know, I hate to say this, as I have said some very strong words over PED Users, yet all along, I realize its only a matter of years, perhaps a decade, before MLB wakes up and allows certain Steroids for Post Surgical Recovery.

Hell, you or I could have major surgery, and obtain Roids other than Cortisone in a Hospital to knock down inflammation; arthritic joints, muscles, et al. Only for Post Surgery recovery tho, not for Enhanced Play, but enhanced recovery.

After all that is a Surgeon's approach if necessary for a serious surgery to heal quicker, and not allow inflammation to grow exponentially out of control....

I do believe this could easily be done, reported, and waivers filed by a Player after PS, yet continue to be monitored for a specific amount of time, until said player is healed and rehabbed, ready to play ball.....

Hell I don't know, just saying.....I do foresee this happening in the future, while MLB continues to monitor for Enhancement Drug Use.....I don't foresee a prob, unless I am missing something. At the same time, masking agent testing should be in place in how long????

Rob, there already is a "waiver request" process as part of the drug testing policy. Recall ARod qualified for a low T exemption, which was legit...he was seriously low natural T production. But not because of genetics, because he had been abusing synthetic T analogs ("steroids") and shrunk his own nads.

Now this is going to be the next avenue for abuse. Guys with legit waivers for substance X.....takes a boutique PED that is designed to be masked by X metabolites. We called them JANUS compounds....basically two drugs liked together to allow their individual effects in synergy. I could easily design a steroid to look like an anti inflammatory from a routine blood test. It would take some seriously advanced protocols to isolate and determine the "cheat".

 

[totus44]

...one more time..."ignorance is no excuse".

...and you're talking about theoretical scenarios...I'm talking about factual events.

...the ole "the dog ate my homework" does not wash here. He knew the rules and he broke them, plain and simple. Spin it however you want but the kid got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

OK so in the 60s, 70s, 80s you never consumed one thing only to learn later it was something else? Come on, lol!

Look my point here is simple, on one that you can agree to....the only facts you have is that he tested positive for something (we don't have the technical data) and he like a dozen others just accepted to suspension unchallenged. You are determining intent from that, and you can't determine intent from the partial facts available.

I content, based on the witnesses own statements, that he unknowingly agreed to take PED substances. I also can't prove intent, but the facts also make my version equally as plausible. We cannot lump all positive tests in the same camp of intents.

You're gonna tell me that Cervelli and Pettite had the same intent as Giambi, Sheffield, Clemens and ARod? If you are than I'm just not going to respond anymore to your comments on this subject because we're at an unreconcilable impasse. Peace out.

 

[yankeesince59]

OK so in the 60s, 70s, 80s you never consumed one thing only to learn later it was something else? Come on, lol!

...what the hell does what i did in my younger years have to do with Baseball players getting busted for PED use?...besides, everything is legal as long as you don't get caught...and and I never got caught ...Cervelli did.

Look my point here is simple, on one that you can agree to....the only facts you have is that he tested positive for something (we don't have the technical data) and he like a dozen others just accepted to suspension unchallenged. You are determining intent from that, and you can't determine intent from the partial facts available.

...intent or not, the fact remains he broke the rules and got caught...can you dispute this or not?

I content, based on the witnesses own statements, that he unknowingly agreed to take PED substances. I also can't prove intent, but the facts also make my version equally as plausible. We cannot lump all positive tests in the same camp of intents.

You're gonna tell me that Cervelli and Pettite had the same intent as Giambi, Sheffield, Clemens and ARod? If you are than I'm just not going to respond anymore to your comments on this subject because we're at an unreconcilable impasse. Peace out.


...when did I say or imply anything like that, tote?...I didn't, and neither did rick...Pettitte and the rest have nothing to do with this topic. It is about Cervelli, period, but you're making it into something else entirely...go back and read. The ONLY point I have made here is that Cervelli got caught and was punished for something he should not have done just like the others...it's as simple as that.
...if you want to paint Cervelli in a different light, that's up to you. But all the spinning will not change the basic fact here, which is Cervelli got busted and punished and will probably have his name attached to PEDs just about every time his name is brought up.

...

 

[Rick2583]

I guess this is where the phase, "You're making a federal case out of this" comes from. I mean holy shit, all I said was that Cervelli because of his suspension will always have the PED label hanging over him which sadly is a true statement. No need to turn it into a fucking novel. WOW!

 

[totus44]

Lol!

Ron, Cervelli tested positive, fact. To say he got caught implies he tested positive knowing that his actions (that resulted in said positive test) were in direct violation of the MLB drug policy. You can't prove that. And I'm saying in absence of that proof, you must consider that alternatives exist for positive tests.

Can you even tell me what he tested positive for? All we know is it wasn't steroids.

Its perfectly fair to mention other players by comparison. Andy talked about HGH as a means to recover, wasn't looking for a competitive advantage. In Cisco's case he knew a detailed list of things he had to avoid. All the details of the Bosch deal aren't known yet, but he has a record of giving patients one thing and telling them another. He's a con man. I think the reason no one fought the 50 game suspensions had to do with a deal between the MLB and the Feds. They were going after guys with demonstrated intent to cheat, thus the Braun and ARod suspensions. It seems like you are equating Cervelli in that camp and I think that's a mistake.

Anyway, I think its unwise to view these things as "black and white" situations. Unless we can prove intent, PED positive players have to be subjectively reviewed. Otherwise what's to stop someone slipping a Micky to Trout and betting against the Angels? And as far as being able to prove intent to cheat, if that happens than the punishment should be lifetime ban and wipe the record clean of that players record.

 

[yankeesince59]

Lol!

Ron, Cervelli tested positive, fact. To say he got caught implies he tested positive knowing that his actions (that resulted in said positive test) were in direct violation of the MLB drug policy. You can't prove that. And I'm saying in absence of that proof, you must consider that alternatives exist for positive tests.

...uhhh, and you can't prove your theory either...but one thing is for sure, he and the others evidently knew that MLB had the evidence they needed to suspend them...and they did.

Can you even tell me what he tested positive for? All we know is it wasn't steroids.

...but we do know that it wasn't baby aspirin either...and we also know it was something that was not allowed

Its perfectly fair to mention other players by comparison. Andy talked about HGH as a means to recover, wasn't looking for a competitive advantage. In Cisco's case he knew a detailed list of things he had to avoid. All the details of the Bosch deal aren't known yet, but he has a record of giving patients one thing and telling them another. He's a con man. I think the reason no one fought the 50 game suspensions had to do with a deal between the MLB and the Feds. They were going after guys with demonstrated intent to cheat, thus the Braun and ARod suspensions. It seems like you are equating Cervelli in that camp and I think that's a mistake.

...no, Andy tested positive. Cisco and the others were suspended by a different form of evidence. You're questioning that system and if you question it for one you must question it for all of them, including ARod and Braun. You can't pick and choose who the rules apply to, regardless of the degree of their offenses.

Anyway, I think its unwise to view these things as "black and white" situations. Unless we can prove intent, PED positive players have to be subjectively reviewed. Otherwise what's to stop someone slipping a Micky to Trout and betting against the Angels? And as far as being able to prove intent to cheat, if that happens than the punishment should be lifetime ban and wipe the record clean of that players record.

...don't know how many times I have to say it but intent or not, it does not change the fact that he and the other broke the rules and paid the price for what they did because again, they evidently knew the evidence was there. Not one of them aside from ARod disputed the charges, not one. Until some evidence to the contrary comes out, all the spinning and all the hypothetical scenarios will not change that.

...

 

[Rick2583]

In the dictionary under the word REDUNDANT does it say........................"See REDUNDANT"?

 

[yankeesince59]

...lol

 

[totus44]

In the dictionary under the word REDUNDANT does it say........................"See REDUNDANT"?

Exactly. Not my fault 59 refutes logic. By his treatment, you can destroy any MLB players career with little effort. All that's required is a positive test. No qualifiers, no circumstances, nothing. You test positive and you intended to cheat.

The must practice Sharia law down in Arkansas.

 

[Rick2583]

Yes I know its dead I just feel like shooting it again......and again.......and again............and again..........

 

[yankeesince59]

Exactly. Not my fault 59 refutes logic. By his treatment, you can destroy any MLB players career with little effort. All that's required is a positive test. No qualifiers, no circumstances, nothing. You test positive and you intended to cheat.

The must practice Sharia law down in Arkansas.

...wow, where do I begin?...first off, I don't think rick was in any way agreeing with you.

...secondly, you claim I refute "logic" but it's only your logic...while you refute actual facts. ....check.

...and how many times have I addressed the "intent" angle?...3 times?...4 times?

...and you claim to have addressed "circumstance", but only with your own hypotheticals?...check.

...and exactly whose "career has been destroyed"?...I'll wait. And exactly who "tested positive"?...I'll wait for that too.



...And I don't live in Arkanfuckingsas.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Rob, there already is a "waiver request" process as part of the drug testing policy. Recall ARod qualified for a low T exemption, which was legit...he was seriously low natural T production. But not because of genetics, because he had been abusing synthetic T analogs ("steroids") and shrunk his own nads.

Now this is going to be the next avenue for abuse. Guys with legit waivers for substance X.....takes a boutique PED that is designed to be masked by X metabolites. We called them JANUS compounds....basically two drugs liked together to allow their individual effects in synergy. I could easily design a steroid to look like an anti inflammatory from a routine blood test. It would take some seriously advanced protocols to isolate and determine the "cheat".

Ah, yes now I recall that post quit some time ago. Thanks, and Peace....

 

[Mattingly23NY]

...right, I refute your logic...while you refute actual facts. ....check.

...and how many times have I addressed the "intent" angle?...3 times?...4 times?

...and you claim to have addressed "circumstance" with your own hypotheticals?...check.



...please. And I don't live in Arkanfuckingsas.

I could use your help as a Lawyer, no kidding, in a Civil Suit I filed.....

Not trying to patronize anyone, just the facts.....!

 

[bern_baby_bern]

How are you clowns doing? This was an ok deal. Thought the Yanks could have packaged Cervelli up and gotten a bit more but let's not overvalue the fist pump. The guy had a hard time staying healthy.

 

[yankeesince59]

...bernie !...how goes it, man?

 

[Rick2583]

HOLY SHIT! A Bernie sighting, to what do we owe this honor?

 

[bern_baby_bern]

Been well guys, missing baseball. Came over to get myself reacquainted before we start talking about Andrus as a Yank

How long until pitchers and catchers?