OT Charles Barkley on TNT

[blue9]

Have you watch the Spurs recently? Leonard has become a first option playmaker.

He's great...as a Spur. But I suspect if he were the #1 option on any other team, with teammates who are similar to his current teammates, he'd be battling to make the POs and a more apt comparison would be Anthony Davis rather than Curry.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The thing is, Davis had elite tools from the get-go, and his presumed expected dominance is based on those. Leonard has become elite through development. I'm amazed at how his shooting percentages have gone up as his usage has increased, and let's not ignore that he's now almost a 90% FT shooter as well. I mean, he could be a 50/40/90 guy PLUS an elite defender. This...doesn't really happen.
http://bkref.com/tiny/fMunz

 

[B-Roy]

The thing is, Davis had elite tools from the get-go, and his presumed expected dominance is based on those. Leonard has become elite through development. I'm amazed at how his shooting percentages have gone up as his usage has increased, and let's not ignore that he's now almost a 90% FT shooter as well. I mean, he could be a 50/40/90 guy PLUS an elite defender. This...doesn't really happen.
http://bkref.com/tiny/fMunz

Leonard was a 50/40/90 guy last year but I don't know about elite defense.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Leonard was a 50/40/90 guy last year but I don't know about elite defense.

OK--that was pretty funny. Guess I should have said "Anthony" and "Kawhi" so nobody thought I meant Ed and Meyers...

 

[blue9]

The thing is, Davis had elite tools from the get-go, and his presumed expected dominance is based on those. Leonard has become elite through development. I'm amazed at how his shooting percentages have gone up as his usage has increased, and let's not ignore that he's now almost a 90% FT shooter as well. I mean, he could be a 50/40/90 guy PLUS an elite defender. This...doesn't really happen.
http://bkref.com/tiny/fMunz

And everything he does would take a hit if he were playing on any other team. He's great, but much of his greatness is because of who he's playing for. On any other team he'd be Paul George - very good, but IND is a bottom rung PO team.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

And everything he does would take a hit if he were playing on any other team. He's great, but much of his greatness is because of who he's playing for. On any other team he'd be Paul George - very good, but IND is a bottom rung PO team.

So, by the same logic, Duncan would have been Carlos Boozer if he played anywhere else? Shouldn't Aldridge be feeling that Spurs' system bump by now?

It's one thing to point out how much the Spurs' system helps role players, and it's inarguable. But "systems" don't create premier talents.

 

[blue9]

So, by the same logic, Duncan would have been Carlos Boozer if he played anywhere else? Shouldn't Aldridge be feeling that Spurs' system bump by now?

It's one thing to point out how much the Spurs' system helps role players, and it's inarguable. But "systems" don't create premier talents.

Maybe not Boozer, but maybe Barkley? Ewing? Malone? The thing about Duncan is that he's the most fundamental player I've ever witnessed - to use him as an example doesn't make a strong argument.
LMA is more effective than he's ever been...but he's not smart enough or good enough to do that with increased usage.
I do think that system has created premier talents. If Parker had been drafted by us, and coached by Nate, he'd probably be Isaiah Thomas (current edition, not DET edition). Pops made Parker who he is...and at one point that was a Top 3 PG, and a Finals MVP.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Umm Malone never won a ring, but I wouldnt put Duncan over him overall. Look at Malone's numbers... Malone was better than either Ewing or Barkley.

 

[dviss1]

What rules would they play with? If it's 90s rules certainly. In today's game I'm not so sure.

I want to stay the first Handchecking rule change happened in 94' amirite?

 

[dviss1]

Umm Malone never won a ring, but I wouldnt put Duncan over him overall. Look at Malone's numbers... Malone was better than either Ewing or Barkley.

Tim Duncan never played with the all time leading assister.

Malone simply is not to defender that Tim Duncan was. Tim Duncan is by far the best power forward of all time.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Tim Duncan never played with the all time leading assister.

Malone simply is not to defender that Tim Duncan was. Tim Duncan is by far the best power forward of all time.

Duncan is BY FAR the best pf of all time.

I think I'd even put Garnett ahead of Malone.

 

[Draco]

Maybe not Boozer, but maybe Barkley? Ewing? Malone? The thing about Duncan is that he's the most fundamental player I've ever witnessed - to use him as an example doesn't make a strong argument.
LMA is more effective than he's ever been...but he's not smart enough or good enough to do that with increased usage.
I do think that system has created premier talents. If Parker had been drafted by us, and coached by Nate, he'd probably be Isaiah Thomas (current edition, not DET edition). Pops made Parker who he is...and at one point that was a Top 3 PG, and a Finals MVP.

That doesn't take away how great he is now. Would Michael Jordan have won all those titles with Kurt Rambis coaching him the triangle instead of Phil Jackson? Probably not. Maybe he'd be a Dwayne Wade level hall of fame top SG instead of the best player of all time. Would Bird have been as successful if he played his career with the Clippers or Kings? Situations help individuals succeed in a team sport.

Kawhi's is a legit MVP candidate. He's playing better than a hundred Spurs who've gone through that system. Yes Pop and the franchise deserve tons of credit for getting him here. But that doesn't take away from the player Kawhi is today.

 

[STOMP]

That doesn't take away how great he is now. Would Michael Jordan have won all those titles with Kurt Rambis coaching him the triangle instead of Phil Jackson? Probably not. Maybe he'd be a Dwayne Wade level hall of fame top SG instead of the best player of all time. Would Bird have been as successful if he played his career with the Clippers or Kings? Situations help individuals succeed in a team sport.

how might have MJ & Hakeem's respective careers turned out if they'd somehow switched teams on draft day 1984? Pretty sure the Dream would have found his way to multiple titles had he been paired with a HOF do everything SF, Horace, Toni, Rodman etc rather then the dreck he ran with for most of his career in Houston. MJ might have got one with Ralph in that very brief window before his wheels fell off, but for most of his peak years guys like Jim Peterson & Vernon Maxwell would have been vying for 2nd best option.

it's a team game

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

Tim Duncan never played with the all time leading assister.

Malone simply is not to defender that Tim Duncan was. Tim Duncan is by far the best power forward of all time.

On the court Malone was a sweet shooting freight train. He was also an all time game 7 choker, flopper/entitled crybaby extraordinaire & the worst cheap shot artist I've ever seen. Off the court he was a disgusting human being. He regularly feuded with coaches and management airing petty/selfish dirty laundry and demanding to have his contract reworked, but his personal life was even worse. In HS he dumped his longtime GF when she became pregnant with twin boys who he never saw let alone supported. While in college he impregnated a 13 year old & again was a complete deadbeat dad to the child despite going on to make obscene $$$. Aloof and standoffish, he radiated prima donna/jerkoff

Compare and contrast that to what we know about Tim. Again, it's a team game. Part of being a great player is about fitting in to become better as a whole then the sum of the individual parts. Selfish vs selfless and quality of personal character are probably the biggest differences between the two & why TD is by far the best PF of all time.

STOMP

 

[Orion Bailey]

Tim Duncan never played with the all time leading assister.

Malone simply is not to defender that Tim Duncan was. Tim Duncan is by far the best power forward of all time.

Fair enough. I just think Malone was better than Ewing and some other bigs of the era. And those assists he got, were not easy assists. They were tossed to the block where Malone had to back down his opponent more often than not.

Not saying Malone was AS good as Tim, but not as far down as Ewiong and other bigs in my opinion. The guy was an absolute beast in the block.

 

[riverman]

Duncan was a center who called himself a PF...Malone was a PF and so they didn't really play the same position..I'll say that throughout his career, Malone at 40 could still outrun rookies for 4 qtrs...the guy was a physical beast..Tim had a way better game under the basket..but that's why he's actually a center

 

[stampedehero]

Does Barkley matter? He should have said Dame is the all star that was snooked.....Barkley off camera

 

[stampedehero]

Fair enough. I just think Malone was better than Ewing and some other bigs of the era. And those assists he got, were not easy assists. They were tossed to the block where Malone had to back down his opponent more often than not.

Not saying Malone was AS good as Tim, but not as far down as Ewiong and other bigs in my opinion. The guy was an absolute beast in the block.

I really enjoyed Malone play. He was unique except he began the sport of flopping

 

[BigGameDamian]

Now I'm sure in today's NBA the flagrant would have came long before flagrant came in that game.

 

[H.C.]

What rules would they play with? If it's 90s rules certainly. In today's game I'm not so sure.

Rules wouldn't really matter.
In a game of 11/21/etc you can't foul out, nor do you get free throws on shots.
MJ & LBJ would destroy Curry because they could foul him everytime he drove past.
So they could just play his 3pt shot.
MJ & LBJ would just use their greater strength even if Curry would foul them on drives.
It wouldn't be close in a game of 1 on 1 regardless of the rules.


@op Barkley is wrong.
LBJ is still the best two way player or even to go further. He's the best basketball player today.
No one else playing today can do what he does every year and get to where he does every year.

Westbrick tried last year so not even him.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

LeBron is definitely the #1 player today. What can't the guy do?

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Now I'm sure in today's NBA the flagrant would have came long before flagrant came in that game.

Unless you give them both flagrants (which I think would be appropriate) than the call should have been on Malone here not Rodman imo.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

LeBron is definitely the #1 player today. What can't the guy do?

Win a title for Cleveland.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Win a title for Cleveland.

I dont think you can blame him for that. Last year they were playing Delladova 40 mpg in the finals. And love was out.

They'll get another chance this year.

 

[blue9]

If Kawhi is the best playing the league that's a sad statement on the talent level of today's NBA. He's good, but he's not even close to being as good as Pippen was.

 

[dviss1]

Fair enough. I just think Malone was better than Ewing and some other bigs of the era. And those assists he got, were not easy assists. They were tossed to the block where Malone had to back down his opponent more often than not.

Not saying Malone was AS good as Tim, but not as far down as Ewiong and other bigs in my opinion. The guy was an absolute beast in the block.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Karl Malone is probably the best ever at setting screens. Stockton is by far the best at using them. I watched a lot of Stockton and Malone. There wasn't a lot anyone could do to defend that pick-and-roll. Malone's solid mid-range jumper also made the pick-and-pop dangerous. They ran that play to death.

 

[dviss1]

Rules wouldn't really matter.
In a game of 11/21/etc you can't foul out, nor do you get free throws on shots.
MJ & LBJ would destroy Curry because they could foul him everytime he drove past.
So they could just play his 3pt shot.
MJ & LBJ would just use their greater strength even if Curry would foul them on drives.
It wouldn't be close in a game of 1 on 1 regardless of the rules.


@op Barkley is wrong.
LBJ is still the best two way player or even to go further. He's the best basketball player today.
No one else playing today can do what he does every year and get to where he does every year.

Westbrick tried last year so not even him.

You're completely wrong.

The NBA used to have a one-on-one tournament. Watch the video. There was a referee and after your third foul free throws would be awarded. So you simply could not just foul a guy every time he goes to the rack. Curry would free throw them out of the game if they did that.

 

[STOMP]

LeBron is definitely the #1 player today. What can't the guy do?

Shoot with Curry. Your silly hyperbole aside, the torch has been passed. LeBron is an all time great, but there is near universal agreement that he's behind Stephen at least. In a landslide vote, the best player in the league will receive his 2nd MVP following the season.

STOMP

 

[KingSpeed]

On the court Malone was a sweet shooting freight train. He was also an all time game 7 choker, flopper/entitled crybaby extraordinaire & the worst cheap shot artist I've ever seen. Off the court he was a disgusting human being. He regularly feuded with coaches and management airing petty/selfish dirty laundry and demanding to have his contract reworked, but his personal life was even worse. In HS he dumped his longtime GF when she became pregnant with twin boys who he never saw let alone supported. While in college he impregnated a 13 year old & again was a complete deadbeat dad to the child despite going on to make obscene $$$. Aloof and standoffish, he radiated prima donna/jerkoff

Compare and contrast that to what we know about Tim. Again, it's a team game. Part of being a great player is about fitting in to become better as a whole then the sum of the individual parts. Selfish vs selfless and quality of personal character are probably the biggest differences between the two & why TD is by far the best PF of all time.

STOMP

Off the top of my head, I can't remember. When did Malone play in a Game 7?

 

[H.C.]

You're completely wrong.

The NBA used to have a one-on-one tournament. Watch the video. There was a referee and after your third foul free throws would be awarded. So you simply could not just foul a guy every time he goes to the rack. Curry would free throw them out of the game if they did that.

I'm not going to watch the video sorry.
I would like to point out that I said

In a game of 11/21/etc you can't foul out, nor do you get free throws on shots.

All of the games of 21(1 on 1/cutthroat/insert whatever you called it.) growing up I played with basic street ball rules.
(They even uses street ball rules in 1 on 1 aka 21 for video games don't they? I don't remember)
And with those rules.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetball
or
(No referees are employed, so almost invariably a "call your own foul" rule is in effect, and a player who believes he has been fouled, simply needs to call out "Foul!", and play will be stopped, with the ball awarded to the fouled player's team (free throws are not awarded in streetball))

Curry would get destroyed by LBJ and Jordan due to they would be able to play through contact far better than Curry will ever be able to.

but I guess if we're talking about something that took place in the early 70's we're also going to use those rules.... So Curry would still get destroyed.
Hand Checking
Contact by the defense on a ballhandler that impedes a player's speed, quickness, rhythm, and/or balance.
Pretty sure this rule alone would allow anyone with any hand strength whatsoever to guard Curry.(Hi Doc Rivers)
I mean the change to hand checking was specifically designed to assist smaller-framed players like Curry right?

I guess it shows how rare of an athlete Muggsy Bogues was