Chess help?

[Dumpy]

This is meant primarily for gambitnut . . .

where can I gain a basic thematic understanding of the king's gambit accepted? All of the chess books I've found have focused on modern theory, which assumes that your opponent knows the best responsive moves. However, for a long time, the king's gambit accepted was considered nearly unstoppable; it took a long time for people to figure out who to counter it. It is rarely played now; if a class player was forced to examine it over the board, the chance that they'd be able to find the right continuation is practically zero. I'm interested in the traditional thematic attacks, the typical responses and why they often fail. The reason I want this is because I think it is a great opening to teach my daughter (she is six), because you can immediately go on the attack as white and force the action,l and she would learn basic attacking principles, such as how to get your pieces to cooperate with each other (which is something I harp on)--and that there would be a zero percent likelihood that another elementary school player would know how to stop it.

But I can't find a source that will teach the KIA on that level. They all focus on Fischer's defense and go on fromt here on how to achieve equality from either side. That's obviously not what I'm looking for. Do you have any ideas, or know where I might look on-line?

 

[DynastYWarrioR6]

I'll ask my buddy if he knows, although I haven't talked to him in a long time. He's number #1 high school chess player in CA, and second in the nation, but that was his junior year.

I'll ask him if he is online tonight

How urgent is this?

 

[bbwMax]

I'll Ask DeepBlue the chess Computer

 

[Dumpy]

I'll ask my buddy if he knows, although I haven't talked to him in a long time. He's number #1 high school chess player in CA, and second in the nation, but that was his junior year.

I'll ask him if he is online tonight

How urgent is this?

Not too urgent. I've searched on the internet, and looked through some electronic databases, but they all are based on up-to-date theory, and I want more a thematic understanding of what the "romantics" played 150 years ago, when it was considered unstoppable. What were the thematic attacks? What was black's common replies, and why did they fail?

I have a bunch of opening books, and they are no help.

 

[CelticKing]

My father is a big time chess player, I never picked it up though, I love watching people play but I lose pretty fast myself.

lol

 

[Colonel Ronan]

If you want to win in chess, you have to not think.

 

[CelticKing]

If you want to win in chess, you have to not think.

Just go with the flow right? lol

But its true Ronan, I've seen matches where some guys think too much and in the end still lose.

 

[Dumpy]

Just go with the flow right? lol

But its true Ronan, I've seen matches where some guys think too much and in the end still lose.

it's true that too many people equate chess study with memorization. Most of the literature actually encourages this. It's more important to understand key themes and ideas, and recognize recurring patterns.

Teaching a six year-old to play the KGA properly, though, would be a killer.

 

[TagYaGirl]

OMG I'm so bad at Chess.

 

[bbwMax]

My computer Homie Deepblue wrote back and he didn't know. Gave me a good recipe for Fried Chicken though.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

My computer Homie Deepblue wrote back and he didn't know. Gave me a good recipe for Fried Chicken though.

Ask him to get me some of that PURRPUL DRANK.

 

[gambitnut]

I missed this thread until now.

Yes, I play the King's Gambit.

I think I've heard that 3. Bc4 is becoming more popular at the highest levels, but 3. Nf3 is probably easier to teach. What then? An immediate 3. ... g5 has been shown to allow white to get a good game with 4. h4 g4 5. Ne5, that is the point of Fischer's Defense, to stop the possibility of Ne5. If somebody does find 3. ... d6, just develop, play d4 to control the center. Playing c3 at some point not only supports the center, but I also like it because it allows you to play b4 with two ideas, to play Qb3 to support the c4 bishop if black plays o-o or storm with the a and b pawns if black plays o-o-o. The Muzio Gambit, allowing black to take the N on f3 to bring the queen to bear on the kingside with the rook and bishop is also fun, the Double Muzio which includes Bxf7 as well is especially wild. If black instead plays 3. ... d5, white has a choice between 4. exd5 getting another black pawn out of the center and probably winning the pawn back with a gain of time or, the plan I play sometimes because it resembles what I do against other openings, 4. e5. Most people would play e5 like a French Defense where white attacks the base of the pawn chain with f5 and black takes it, but I like to throw in the Wing Gambit, b4, as well if black plays c5. I know I'm weird though. The only other attempt to cause any discomfort for white is 3. ... Nf6 4. e5 Nh5. That looks ugly, but is surprisingly hard to crack. If she just develops and looks for chances to attack though, she should be fine. All other moves should allow her to regain the pawn, develop a piece with a gain of time, control the center and have ready made attack aimed at f7. Good luck and let me know if you have any more questions.

 

[Dumpy]

I missed this thread until now.

Yes, I play the King's Gambit.

I think I've heard that 3. Bc4 is becoming more popular at the highest levels, but 3. Nf3 is probably easier to teach. What then? An immediate 3. ... g5 has been shown to allow white to get a good game with 4. h4 g4 5. Ne5, that is the point of Fischer's Defense, to stop the possibility of Ne5. If somebody does find 3. ... d6, just develop, play d4 to control the center. Playing c3 at some point not only supports the center, but I also like it because it allows you to play b4 with two ideas, to play Qb3 to support the c4 bishop if black plays o-o or storm with the a and b pawns if black plays o-o-o. The Muzio Gambit, allowing black to take the N on f3 to bring the queen to bear on the kingside with the rook and bishop is also fun, the Double Muzio which includes Bxf7 as well is especially wild. If black instead plays 3. ... d5, white has a choice between 4. exd5 getting another black pawn out of the center and probably winning the pawn back with a gain of time or, the plan I play sometimes because it resembles what I do against other openings, 4. e5. Most people would play e5 like a French Defense where white attacks the base of the pawn chain with f5 and black takes it, but I like to throw in the Wing Gambit, b4, as well if black plays c5. I know I'm weird though. The only other attempt to cause any discomfort for white is 3. ... Nf6 4. e5 Nh5. That looks ugly, but is surprisingly hard to crack. If she just develops and looks for chances to attack though, she should be fine. All other moves should allow her to regain the pawn, develop a piece with a gain of time, control the center and have ready made attack aimed at f7. Good luck and let me know if you have any more questions.

see, you've articulated the problem. She is SIX. She will play other six or seven year olds. We just need to know thematic attacks--for instance, if I could find some KGA miniatures from the 19th century, that would probably do it. All that other stuff is too complicated for her. I have a hunch that the attack sequences in the KGA, on an easy level, are just so thematic and repetitive, that it will become easy to identify common patterns.

f7 is clearly the attack point. Is it common to sac a piece there to draw out the king? Which one?

(incidentally, after 3. Bc4, how do you stop the oncoming check?)

 

[bbwMax]

see, you've articulated the problem. She is SIX. She will play other six or seven year olds. We just need to know thematic attacks--for instance, if I could find some KGA miniatures from the 19th century, that would probably do it. All that other stuff is too complicated for her. I have a hunch that the attack sequences in the KGA, on an easy level, are just so thematic and repetitive, that it will become easy to identify common patterns.

f7 is clearly the attack point. Is it common to sac a piece there to draw out the king? Which one?

(incidentally, after 3. Bc4, how do you stop the oncoming check?)

She must be a bright 6 year old. I have no idea what you are talking about. I just like to play football and eat Fried Chicken

 

[Dumpy]

She must be a bright 6 year old. I have no idea what you are talking about. I just like to play football and eat Fried Chicken

In all seriousness, kids can pick up chess very quickly, and they like it, partly because they see it as an "adult" game, and it makes them feel capable, and because they see that you can actually make decisions instead of just picking cards or rolling dice.

There have been lots of studies that have demonstrated that kids who learn to play chess do better in school, can focus longer, and improve their reasoning and math skills. In some instances, groups of poor (and poorly behaved)students in inner-cities have been taught chess, and have morphed into "A" students. They learn that their actions have repercussions. It is truly incredible. It sounds bizarre- it is just a game!--but the effect on a kid's reasoning ability and intellect is profound. If you take nothing else from this thread, hopefully you'll remember how incredible the benefits are to teach your (I assume) future children chess at a young age. In some elite schools, in fact, chess is a mandatory activity.

brief edit: think about it, in chess, when you lose, you lose because of a decision that YOU made. You can't blame it on the weather, on bad luck, whatever. You learn to trust your own judgment and not to make excuses.

 

[gambitnut]

see, you've articulated the problem. She is SIX. She will play other six or seven year olds. We just need to know thematic attacks--for instance, if I could find some KGA miniatures from the 19th century, that would probably do it. All that other stuff is too complicated for her. I have a hunch that the attack sequences in the KGA, on an easy level, are just so thematic and repetitive, that it will become easy to identify common patterns.

f7 is clearly the attack point. Is it common to sac a piece there to draw out the king? Which one?

(incidentally, after 3. Bc4, how do you stop the oncoming check?)

The main themes of the King's gambit are to control the center with pawns on e4 and d4 now that the e5 pawn is gone and attack f7. At the start of the game, f7 (f2 for white) is only protected by the king and is therefore the weakest square on the board. Many e4 openings have been based on attacking that square. If she can take the f4 pawn back safely, she should do it. If she can get pawns on e4 and d4, bishop on c4, knight on f3 and rook on f1 with no pawn on f4 blocking the rook's path, she should have an easy win. If that happens, something like Bg5, Bxf7+ and Ne5, checking with the knight and rook, might be a killer. If there is a sac on f7, it is usually the bishop, but it often isn't needed. If she like sacrificing, the Muzio is probably the best bet, but at that level, I suspect many of her opponents will let her get her pawn back, dominate the center and storm f7.

After 3. Bc4 Qh4+, white plays 4. Kf1 and 5. Nf3, getting the knight to f3 with a gain of time, but making it harder to get the rook to f1. Most say Bc4 is best and Qh4+ is bad because it loses time, but I still like Nf3.

 

[Dumpy]

The main themes of the King's gambit are to control the center with pawns on e4 and d4 now that the e5 pawn is gone and attack f7. At the start of the game, f7 (f2 for white) is only protected by the king and is therefore the weakest square on the board. Many e4 openings have been based on attacking that square. If she can take the f4 pawn back safely, she should do it. If she can get pawns on e4 and d4, bishop on c4, knight on f3 and rook on f1 with no pawn on f4 blocking the rook's path, she should have an easy win. If that happens, something like Bg5, Bxf7+ and Ne5, checking with the knight and rook, might be a killer. If there is a sac on f7, it is usually the bishop, but it often isn't needed. If she like sacrificing, the Muzio is probably the best bet, but at that level, I suspect many of her opponents will let her get her pawn back, dominate the center and storm f7.

After 3. Bc4 Qh4+, white plays 4. Kf1 and 5. Nf3, getting the knight to f3 with a gain of time, but making it harder to get the rook to f1. Most say Bc4 is best and Qh4+ is bad because it loses time, but I still like Nf3.

Thanks. Is an attack with the bishop, King's knight, and rook on the f file usually sufficient, or is the queen usually involved as well? If so, does it tend to support the bishop on the diagonal, or swing over to the king side?

 

[gambitnut]

Thanks. Is an attack with the bishop, King's knight, and rook on the f file usually sufficient, or is the queen usually involved as well? If so, does it tend to support the bishop on the diagonal, or swing over to the king side?

The queen might not be needed, but would probably help as long as she isn't brought out too early. If her opponent plays bad defense, as most kids that age probably do, putting the knight on e5 or g5 and the queen at f3 or h5 is probably best, that opens up the possibility of Qxf7 being checkmate, Bxf7 supported by a queen on b3 probably won't be checkmate right away. If her opponent somehow plays Fischer's Defense, the knight might get stuck on f3 for a while, so she might have to play Qb3, I also suggested playing b4 first in that case so her opponent can't play Na5, fork the bishop and queen and ease the pressure by trading pieces, but I doubt she'll have to worry about that much at that level.

 

[Dumpy]

The queen might not be needed, but would probably help as long as she isn't brought out too early. If her opponent plays bad defense, as most kids that age probably do, putting the knight on e5 or g5 and the queen at f3 or h5 is probably best, that opens up the possibility of Qxf7 being checkmate, Bxf7 supported by a queen on b3 probably won't be checkmate right away. If her opponent somehow plays Fischer's Defense, the knight might get stuck on f3 for a while, so she might have to play Qb3, I also suggested playing b4 first in that case so her opponent can't play Na5, fork the bishop and queen and ease the pressure by trading pieces, but I doubt she'll have to worry about that much at that level.

thanks--this is perfect!

 

[bbwMax]

In all seriousness, kids can pick up chess very quickly, and they like it, partly because they see it as an "adult" game, and it makes them feel capable, and because they see that you can actually make decisions instead of just picking cards or rolling dice.

Yeh i know that but what i mean is a 6 year old going to understand all this text. I know you will talk it through with her but it seems som Complex stuff.

 

[Dumpy]

Yeh i know that but what i mean is a 6 year old going to understand all this text. I know you will talk it through with her but it seems som Complex stuff.

she's very limited in how far ahead she can project, but I think she could handle somthing like this. I'm focusing on teaching her how each piece should be used, and the goals for the opening, things like that. For instance, I tell her that each piece is like a different child--they have different skills and interests, and all have to do different things to be happy--and as the team captain, it is her responsibility to make sure that all her players participate and cooperate with each other. To pull off the thematic attacks in the KGA, it forces you to focus on getting your pieces to cooperate with each other.

If you understand intuitively where each piece should go on the board, and how to make each piece most effective, then it isn't as important to analyze different variations over the board; often the right move will just scream out to you. Another example: I call open files "roads," and tell her that when a road opens up, it's her responsibility to put a rook there, because then that rook will be really happy. I also tell her that there is only one thing better than a rook on an open road: two rooks on a road (because they can cooperate with each other). Advance support points for knights I refer to as "houses." I haven't really focused on how to use knights with her yet (such as how to identify a house), but she knows that they don't belong on the edges.

 

[#1_War_Poet_ForLife]

Dumpy, for your second girl (or even your first), I would recommend Lego Chess. It has a great tutorial, and a fun story mode. When you're not around, she can even play against the computer, with varying levels of difficulty. And it's legos! Who doesn't love legos?

If you can't find it, I'm sure I'll be able to hook you up

 

[bbwMax]

LEGO RULeEEES!!!!!

 

[DynastYWarrioR6]

Yeah Dumpy, I have LEGO Chess at home from when I was younger, it is a great game for teaching younger people how to play chess, cause they make it more entertaining. See if you can find it.

 

[Dumpy]

Yeah Dumpy, I have LEGO Chess at home from when I was younger, it is a great game for teaching younger people how to play chess, cause they make it more entertaining. See if you can find it.

hm, it looks cool. The six-year old in fact has been asking for a computer chess game that was more fun. I wonder if it works with vista?

 

[DynastYWarrioR6]

hm, it looks cool. The six-year old in fact has been asking for a computer chess game that was more fun. I wonder if it works with vista?

It is an older game, so I wouldn't know. I played it back on the '98 platform.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Teaching Kings Gambit to any beginner, let alone someone so young, is not a good idea.

1) If you don't make the proper responses, you have destoyed your position.

2) Chess isn't about gimicky openings, it's the wrong lesson for a young person to learn.

3) Teach her Ruy Lopez and repeat over and again the phase....

Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning

I know you probably didn't want the premise to your question questioned, but this is what I really think.

Gambitnut, what are your thoughts on this?

 

[#1_War_Poet_ForLife]

hm, it looks cool. The six-year old in fact has been asking for a computer chess game that was more fun. I wonder if it works with vista?

I don't think so. You can always dual boot. Have any XP copies laying around?

 

[gambitnut]

Teaching Kings Gambit to any beginner, let alone someone so young, is not a good idea.

The King's Gambit was the first opening I learned as well. I think it is a fun opening to play.

1) If you don't make the proper responses, you have destoyed your position.

If you don't play the opening correctly and your opponent does, you're going to have problems no matter what the opening is. If I have a choice between an opening that "opening theory" says is easily winning for my side, but I don't understand how to do it and the winning method isn't in the style that comes naturally to me or an opening that "opening theory" says is losing for my side but I know it very well and the winning plan fits my style, give me the latter. Games at that level will probably be decided by mistakes after the opening anyway, so I think it is especially important for her to play an opening she enjoys and can easily understand what she is trying to do in the opening and beyond.

2) Chess isn't about gimicky openings, it's the wrong lesson for a young person to learn.

The King's Gambit has been around for many, many years, and is still popular with some of the best players in the world, I wouldn't call it gimicky like some of the other gambits I play.

3) Teach her Ruy Lopez and repeat over and again the phase....

Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning
Winning by Pinning

The Ruy Lopez is a very good opening as well, but I suspect that some of the concepts are a bit advanced for most six year olds and they don't have the patience for the positional style either.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

The King's Gambit was the first opening I learned as well. I think it is a fun opening to play.



If you don't play the opening correctly and your opponent does, you're going to have problems no matter what the opening is. If I have a choice between an opening that "opening theory" says is easily winning for my side, but I don't understand how to do it and the winning method isn't in the style that comes naturally to me or an opening that "opening theory" says is losing for my side but I know it very well and the winning plan fits my style, give me the latter. Games at that level will probably be decided by mistakes after the opening anyway, so I think it is especially important for her to play an opening she enjoys and can easily understand what she is trying to do in the opening and beyond.



The King's Gambit has been around for many, many years, and is still popular with some of the best players in the world, I wouldn't call it gimicky like some of the other gambits I play.



The Ruy Lopez is a very good opening as well, but I suspect that some of the concepts are a bit advanced for most six year olds and they don't have the patience for the positional style either.

I've played plenty of novice players who move P-kB4 in the opening and I basically obliterate them
with Q-R5+. Sure, King's Gambit is good if you pay attention to the threat Q threat. If the 7 year old
is ready to pay that type of attention, great. If not, opening moves that do 2 or 3 things at once
(such as in the Ruy Lopez) are probably better.