Chevy Volt: 230 mpg

[mook]

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm?postversion=2009081108

DETROIT (CNNMoney.com) -- The Chevrolet Volt, GM's electric car that's expected to go on sale in late 2010, is projected to get an estimated 230 miles per gallon, the automaker announced Tuesday.
That exceptionally high government mileage rating could give the Volt a major boost. For the first time, car buyers will easily be able to compare electric cars with ordinary gas-powered cars.
...
Basically, you will be able to drive the Volt for about 40 miles using the lithium-ion batteries. For those driving less than that, gas mileage is essentially unlimited. It is only after 40 miles that the Volt will start using gas.
"Most Volt drivers will operate on a daily basis without having to use a single drop of gas," said Henderson, saying that three out of four drivers travel 40 miles or less a day.
...
Henderson conceded the cost of building a Volt will be expensive, about $40,000 per vehicle. But he said the vehicle will qualify for a $7,500 tax credit, which will reduce the vehicle cost by that amount for consumers.
He also stressed that GM has not set the pricing for the Volt, and conceded the company may have to subsidize the vehicle. The goal: Make enough sales to move the Volt from "first generation" to lower-cost future designs.
"The cost of the vehicle in the first generation is high," he said.

Some pretty astounding numbers there. $40k/vehicle? Yikes. 230 mpg? Wow.

 

[maxiep]

I'd be interested to see how the mpg is calculated. One thing is for certain, this is a quantum leap in motoring.

What would be a more interesting study is to see how much energy it took to charge the battery and then compare that cost to its fuel usage. After all, the energy has to come from somewhere.

 

[barfo]

I'd be interested to see how the mpg is calculated. One thing is for certain, this is a quantum leap in motoring.

What would be a more interesting study is to see how much energy it took to charge the battery and then compare that cost to its fuel usage. After all, the energy has to come from somewhere.

I think they said somewhere that it costs $0.40 to charge? If that's right (and I might be misquoting it) that's pretty cheap.

barfo

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

who killed the electric car!

 

[andalusian]

I'd be interested to see how the mpg is calculated. One thing is for certain, this is a quantum leap in motoring.

What would be a more interesting study is to see how much energy it took to charge the battery and then compare that cost to its fuel usage. After all, the energy has to come from somewhere.

Well, since the energy will come from the grid - what we can do is calculate it's price - and for those that can stay within the 40 miles round trip between recharging the energy costs are going to be about an 1/8th of the regular gasoline costs.

Remember that most of the US's electric energy comes from coal, about 20% from nuclear sources and some from natural sources - these sources are cheaper than using liquid gold. Utilities will only use dino-juice to make electricity when they have no other choice and they need to meet demand (usually when the weather is super-hot and everyone is blasting their ACs all the time) using their expensive "relief power-plants". (That's why you see utilities actually funding most of the programs for energy efficiencies - they do not do from the goodness of their heart - it is a cold business decision).

Converting our transportation energy source to the grid is a great thing to reduce our energy dependency - we have no problems with coal, we have deliberately reduced our nuclear dependency - but given the advances in technology it might be the right time to bring it up - and alternative energy sources are just poised for a breakthrough now that there is real money being thrown at it.

 

[maxiep]

I think they said somewhere that it costs $0.40 to charge? If that's right (and I might be misquoting it) that's pretty cheap.

barfo

Wow. Assume it takes a gallon and a half to travel 40 miles. At $2.50/gal, that's $3.75 vs. $0.40. Holy crap.

 

[maxiep]

Well, since the energy will come from the grid - what we can do is calculate it's price - and for those that can stay within the 40 miles round trip between recharging the energy costs are going to be about an 1/8th of the regular gasoline costs.

Remember that most of the US's electric energy comes from coal, about 20% from nuclear sources and some from natural sources - these sources are cheaper than using liquid gold. Utilities will only use dino-juice to make electricity when they have no other choice and they need to meet demand (usually when the weather is super-hot and everyone is blasting their ACs all the time) using their expensive "relief power-plants". (That's why you see utilities actually funding most of the programs for energy efficiencies - they do not do from the goodness of their heart - it is a cold business decision).

That's the info I was looking for. Thanks!

 

[hasoos]

Wow. Assume it takes a gallon and a half to travel 40 miles. At $2.50/gal, that's $3.75 vs. $0.40. Holy crap.

Exactly. I can do my whole commute and never use a drop of gas.

Then think about this: If we got all the people that could use this car and not use gas on their commute, all of that money we would be spending on gas can go back into our economy. The cash infusion into our economy would be huge.

The amount of money not going to people who hate us overseas, will also be huge.

 

[barfo]

Exactly. I can do my whole commute and never use a drop of gas.

I could commute for 2 weeks and never use a drop of gas (and not have to recharge, either).
But then since my commute is only 2 miles, gas prices are hardly relevant to me anyway.

barfo

 

[mook]

Another important factor is that most of the charging of these vehicles occur in off-peak hours. Air conditioners run hardest at midday. These cars are designed to charge overnight. So electricity is cheaper.

Personally, I think the auto industry is missing a major boat in talking about "plug-in vehicles." Who really wants to have to plug in their car every night? Who wants to risk accidentally tearing out a cord in the morning because they forgot to unplug it? Who wants to be without transportation because their idiot teenage son forgot to charge the car when he was done?

Instead, they should be discussing "docking vehicles." You drive your car over a spot in your driveway or garage and a magnet sucks a cord to the vehicle. The cord charges the vehicle. When it's charged, or when the ignition is activated, the cord is automatically disengaged.

Such a system would make electric cars much, much more convenient than gas cars. You never fill it up, you never have to worry about charging it.

 

[andalusian]

Instead, they should be discussing "docking vehicles." You drive your car over a spot in your driveway or garage and a magnet sucks a cord to the vehicle. The cord charges the vehicle. When it's charged, or when the ignition is activated, the cord is automatically disengaged.

Something of that nature is proposed by Better Place - an Israeli company founded by the guy that was the technology chief of SAP.

The idea is to use a standard design batteries - and have gas station double as battery exchange stations - this also extends the range of your travel... See the neat demonstration in the video on this page:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/05/13/video-better-place-battery-swapper-demonstrated/

 

[hasoos]

I could commute for 2 weeks and never use a drop of gas (and not have to recharge, either).
But then since my commute is only 2 miles, gas prices are hardly relevant to me anyway.

barfo

Hell sounds like you could walk or bike to work easy enough if you didn't have to haul stuff. I loved it when I lived and worked downtown, because I could walk out my door and 6 blocks to work. If I was lazy I caught max 2 blocks away for the measly distance it carried me. I could even walk home for lunch.

 

[BlazerWookee]

I'd be interested to see how the mpg is calculated. One thing is for certain, this is a quantum leap in motoring.

What would be a more interesting study is to see how much energy it took to charge the battery and then compare that cost to its fuel usage. After all, the energy has to come from somewhere.

Not to mention how much energy/environmental impact it takes to manufacture, maintain, recycle, and/or dispose of each battery.

Oh, and how hazardous these batteries are when one of these things gets plowed into by a semi...

 

[SheedSoNasty]

I have a 44 mile round trip for work. I'd be driving for 4 miles on gas in that thing!

That's music to my ears... I wonder how much these will end up costing.

 

[barfo]

Hell sounds like you could walk or bike to work easy enough if you didn't have to haul stuff.

And if I wasn't old and lazy and it wasn't uphill all the way home.

barfo

 

[mook]

Oh, and how hazardous these batteries are when one of these things gets plowed into by a semi...

A gas engine is just a series of constant, controlled explosions going off about 8 feet from your face as you sit another 8 feet in front of 20 gallons of highly combustible gasoline.

Are you saying a pack of batteries is inherently more dangerous than that?

 

[mook]

Not to mention how much energy/environmental impact it takes to manufacture, maintain, recycle, and/or dispose of each battery.

That's probably one of the biggest questions. Again, though, what's it cost us right now in energy, time and money to keep pipelines in the Middle East running, and to transport that fuel to other areas of the world for use? Even if you didn't take into account exhaust pollution, I wonder if batteries might still come out ahead.

 

[hasoos]

Not to mention how much energy/environmental impact it takes to manufacture, maintain, recycle, and/or dispose of each battery.

Oh, and how hazardous these batteries are when one of these things gets plowed into by a semi...

If you are getting plowed into by a semitruck you have much more serious issues than worrying about a battery. Now if it was another passenger car or a slow speed wreck, that is much different.

All cars have to pass safety standards. I do not know what those are for batteries, but seeing as how car safety has been improved over the last 20 years I am not too worried.

As for environmental impact, if legislation is in place to ensure all batteries are recycled, it would help a lot.

 

[blazerboy30]

Another important factor is that most of the charging of these vehicles occur in off-peak hours. Air conditioners run hardest at midday. These cars are designed to charge overnight. So electricity is cheaper.

You get an additional benefit...

If these things catch on, and people start putting them on the grid when they aren't driving them, then you have essentially added millions of batteries (aka tons of energy storage) to the grid.

Utility companies HATE the fluctuations in energy consumption during the days, because it makes it such that they have to have power plant capacity to handle the worst-case loading, even though worst-case loading doesn't exist at all times.

With the added "storage" on the grid from these battery-powered cars, you can essentially use them to filter the energy consumption, and shave off the peaks of demand, and require a lot less power plant usage.

 

[yakbladder]

I think I remember hearing something last week about some stimulus money being used to build charging stations in Washington and Oregon. Part of that (if I remember correctly) was that people who bought certain cars (perhaps the Volt?) would get a "charging station" installed free of charge (no pun) at their house.

Also, one thing to remember about these batteries. They are great for 10 years. Then you get a huge bill to replace them. More than 10K.

If you want an electric car, I'd get a Tesla.

Personally, I think the auto industry is missing a major boat in talking about "plug-in vehicles." Who really wants to have to plug in their car every night? Who wants to risk accidentally tearing out a cord in the morning because they forgot to unplug it? Who wants to be without transportation because their idiot teenage son forgot to charge the car when he was done?

Instead, they should be discussing "docking vehicles." You drive your car over a spot in your driveway or garage and a magnet sucks a cord to the vehicle. The cord charges the vehicle. When it's charged, or when the ignition is activated, the cord is automatically disengaged.

 

[hasoos]

Here is Nissan's retort.

http://www.dailytech.com/Nissan+Sco...out+367+MPG+Rating+for+LEAF/article15941c.htm

Also just an FYI, the Nissan Leaf is going to be built in the USA after the first year. Another vehicle where the lines are blurry as to where it is built, but it will be american jobs bringing it to market.

 

[mook]

Also, one thing to remember about these batteries. They are great for 10 years. Then you get a huge bill to replace them. More than 10K.

If you want an electric car, I'd get a Tesla.

At current prices, the batteries probably will cost you 10k. However, how can anyone really know what the price of those batteries will be in 10 years? I would think that by then manufacturing would have ramped up to provide some economies of scale. 10 years ago you had to pay $10,000 for a 52 inch flat screen tv. Now you can get a much better one for a thousand bucks.

How much do you spend on oil changes and regular service over 10 years for a gas engine?

How long do current cars last? 15 years? I own a 1991 car, but it's pretty shot. I'm looking at putting in a new transmission on a 1999 Honda minivan--that's going to run me $3500-$4000 if I go through with it. (I'm tempted to just scrap it, or use it in the cars for clunkers program in the ultimate act of personal hypocrisy.)

I understand the gas engine included in the Volt will be a very efficient, reliable engine. As a generator, it's optimized to run at a particular speed under a particular load. (The gas engine in a typical car has to be a do-it-all, powering the vehicle from a stop to up to 90 mph, going up steep hills or pulling a trailer. It can't be nearly as fine-tuned.) That consistent operation should lead to a pretty trouble-free life. The electric motors, of course, should also hold up nicely since they have so few moving parts.

The Tesla, although really sweet, is a $100k car. Plus I believe there's a big waiting list....

 

[hasoos]

Plus, it should only be a few years until "Mr. Fusion" from "Back to the Future" is invented, right?

 

[andalusian]

The Tesla is a cute idea - but the current implementation is pretty much a joke. The battery pack is basically tons of cell-phone batteries. I suspect it costs as much as it does because you have to have so many Verizon contracts

 

[Natebishop3]

When the prices come down, I would totally buy an electric car.

 

[yakbladder]

How much do you spend on oil changes and regular service over 10 years for a gas engine?

Regular service you will have to get on the Volt as well...in addition to oil changes (it does have a gas motor as well, you know). For me oil changes/service aren't that expensive.

I'm not trying to bad mouth the Volt, I'd probably look into one if I had $40K sitting around burning a hole in my pocket. I just think there are some expenses, like the batteries, that aren't properly disclosed. For $40K I would hope to not have to put another $10K into it in ADDITION to all of the service costs after 10 years.

I suspect when all of the other manufacturers start coming out with models the price of everything will drop. And our electric bills will rise. Perhaps I should buy stock in PGE?

The Tesla, although really sweet, is a $100k car. Plus I believe there's a big waiting list....

Yes and yes. But if I have $40K burning a hole in my pocket I must have $100K burning a hole...

 

[barfo]

I looked into buying a Tesla, but two things stopped me. One, they had problems with the transmission which I don't know if they ever really resolved. Two, you can't get it serviced in Oregon, you have to truck it to CA. Wee bit inconvenient.

barfo

 

[hasoos]

The Tesla is a cute idea - but the current implementation is pretty much a joke. The battery pack is basically tons of cell-phone batteries. I suspect it costs as much as it does because you have to have so many Verizon contracts

Good thing it isn't a fucking Apple car. It would cost 3 times as much for the same car.

I don't know if you have looked at the new 6 person sedan, but it actually starts out at 48k unlike the roadster. They are supposed to have an even lower priced SUV by later this year. To me that would be the best. Have your SUV but none of the fuel issues.

 

[andalusian]

I don't know if you have looked at the new 6 person sedan, but it actually starts out at 48k unlike the roadster. They are supposed to have an even lower priced SUV by later this year. To me that would be the best. Have your SUV but none of the fuel issues.

My understanding is that Mercedes bought a part of the company - so I suspect that the SUV/Sedan will have a very different technical architecture than the roadster...

Again, the Tesla is cute - but the implementation is just absurd.

 

[hasoos]

[video=youtube;csJ_Yk4QiDs]

This has some footage of the MOdel S