Chicago Mayor Tries to Poach Oregon Companies because of Measure 66

[MARIS61]

I wonder how many commissions you've collected from people who have engaged in business practices from which you'd disapprove? Since you're pure as the driven snow, I expect you to return those monies immediately.

$0.00.

BTW, I am surprised you refer to child-abuse as "business practices". I guess it eases your conscience when you defend it in those terms.

I've never been so desperate, greedy, or morally weak that I had to compromise my character for profit. Being self-employed I choose who I do or do not work with. I've walked away from several clients who were racists, or dishonest, for example.

I'm not good at pretending to like people who I abhor, so it would only hurt my business to accept clients who are "bad people" by my standards. Realtors in Oregon are required by law to operate on a higher level ethically and legally, than most occupations. Our business is built on honesty and trust. I operate almost exclusively on referral business.

Many of my peers in the community would probably blacklist me also. Character standards are high here. Word gets around.

Since it's clear your life is driven by dollar signs, I'm curious how evil a person would have to be for you to tell him to find another person to hire? Would you help a Wall St embezzler? A corporation convicted of massive intentional pollution? One who discriminates against women in their hiring practices? Where do you draw the line? Or do you have a line?

 

[maxiep]

$0.00.

I bet you're wrong.

BTW, I am surprised you refer to child-abuse as "business practices". I guess it eases your conscience when you defend it in those terms.

The world is a big place with all kinds of cultural mores and business practices. I wouldn't want my child to work in a Nike factory, but I'm not going to make that decision for someone living in squalor in SE Asia. I would imagine whether the child works or not is the difference between eating and going hungry for the family.

I've never been so desperate, greedy, or morally weak that I had to compromise my character for profit. Being self-employed I choose who I do or do not work with. I've walked away from several clients who were racists, or dishonest, for example.

Well, you worked for the government for years, so actually you were a leech on those of us who have actually spent our lives producing. I'm interested in the concept that people who were racists and dishonest saw enough of themselves in you that they wished to work with you. Kindred spirits, I guess.

I'm not good at pretending to like people who I abhor, so it would only hurt my business to accept clients who are "bad people" by my standards. Realtors in Oregon are required by law to operate on a higher level ethically and legally, than most occupations. Our business is built on honesty and trust. I operate almost exclusively on referral business.

Many of my peers in the community would probably blacklist me also. Character standards are high here. Word gets around.

I've been a licensed Realtor in Oregon for over 20 years, although you and I work in different areas. I work in commerical RE. Residential real estate is full of the most unethical people I've ever met. Please don't pretend that designation denotes any kind of nobility. The barrier to entry for a residential Realtor is some hair gel and a photo on a business card.

Since it's clear your life is driven by dollar signs, I'm curious how evil a person would have to be for you to tell him to find another person to hire? Would you help a Wall St embezzler? A corporation convicted of massive intentional pollution? One who discriminates against women in their hiring practices? Where do you draw the line? Or do you have a line?

Nice try. My life is driven by ideas. Remember that when you worked for the Government, your salary was paid by all kinds of reprobates simply because they were taxpayers. I don't see you returning a portion of your paycheck and retirement package.

I, on the other hand, have always chosen with whom I've worked. I've never taken government money, with the exception of my public school education, which I'm quite certain I've repaid with tax money. You keep on living your lie, however.

 

[Buzz Killington]

It's apples and oranges. Chicago is a real city, with all the rough edges intact. It's big, it's dirty and industrial, there are dangerous areas, there's racial tension and ethnic neighborhoods. Portland is Mayberry with 2 million people.

I prefer Portland, but I know a lot of people who think differently.

YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO CHICAGO.

 

[maxiep]

YOU'VE NEVER BEEN TO CHICAGO.

LOL.

 

[yakbladder]

I'm saying that Springfield and Chicago City Hall give huge tax breaks to companies willing to move to the state. Ask Boeing how they're taxed.

You mean like Intel and their gigantic tax break they got for building a plant out here?

Would you like me to list some other companies in Oregon that got tax breaks?

Companies move to PDX typically for two reasons:

1) Standard of living is usually better than the huge cities.
2) Cost of living is usually lower. Especially when compared to places like LA, NY, Chicago, etc.

Companies typically move to the big city because that's where the other big businesses are and that's where the people live that will work in their companies.

Besides, if taxes were that big of a deal, all of the corps would've moved to the Caymans years ago and the Caribbean would be the most populous area on the Earth.

Chicago benefited from being an industrial and meat slaughtering hub in the early part of the 20th century. It certainly has not been growing by leaps and bounds simply because of its tax status.

 

[maxiep]

You mean like Intel and their gigantic tax break they got for building a plant out here?

Would you like me to list some other companies in Oregon that got tax breaks?

Companies move to PDX typically for two reasons:

1) Standard of living is usually better than the huge cities.
2) Cost of living is usually lower. Especially when compared to places like LA, NY, Chicago, etc.

Companies typically move to the big city because that's where the other big businesses are and that's where the people live that will work in their companies.

Besides, if taxes were that big of a deal, all of the corps would've moved to the Caymans years ago and the Caribbean would be the most populous area on the Earth.

Chicago benefited from being an industrial and meat slaughtering hub in the early part of the 20th century. It certainly has not been growing by leaps and bounds simply because of its tax status.

Intel--as part of that agreement--also agreed to pay Washington County $1,000 per employee per year for bringing in workers that would strain the County resources. An addendum to that agreement raised the price to $1,700 per year per employee. I can't recall the last time someone had to pay to increase employment.

Chicago has grown because it's pro-business. Businesses locate where they're wanted. I don't see Portland attracting many business lately. Too often, profit-making ventures here are viewed as "the enemy" rather than a source of jobs and income. It's too bad.

 

[MARIS61]

So you envision sustainable economy for Oregon? Great in a small community, but if you want a large populace, you need evil corporations running things to provide real jobs, not Wheatgrass juicers.

You don't. Small businesses are much more stable, and usually have better overall benefits and working environments. They have a personal stake in the community, not just a financial one. They don't have their lawyers look for ways to sponge off the taxpayers or to "get around laws and regulations. They don't threaten to move every few years, as Nike has repeatedly done. They don't "own" your elected representatives, as Nike does.

Nothing sustainable about Nike, in terms of Oregon anyway.

The bulk of their 30,000 employees are out of state or country, they contract most of their labor from forced child labor camps run by criminal governments. They do not pay their share of taxes, they set a horrid example of business ethics which stains our state's reputation.

And I've never met an Oregonian who wanted a "large populace".

#1 reason people move to Oregon is to get away from all the crime, pollution, greed and hate that evolves in all large gatherings of human beings.

 

[maxiep]

You don't. Small businesses are much more stable, and usually have better overall benefits and working environments. They have a personal stake in the community, not just a financial one. They don't have their lawyers look for ways to sponge off the taxpayers or to "get around laws and regulations. They don't threaten to move every few years, as Nike has repeatedly done. They don't "own" your elected representatives, as Nike does.

Nothing sustainable about Nike, in terms of Oregon anyway.

The bulk of their 30,000 employees are out of state or country, they contract most of their labor from forced child labor camps run by criminal governments. They do not pay their share of taxes, they set a horrid example of business ethics which stains our state's reputation.

And I've never met an Oregonian who wanted a "large populace".

#1 reason people move to Oregon is to get away from all the crime, pollution, greed and hate that evolves in all large gatherings of human beings.

And now the #1 reason people move to Oregon is to get away from jobs. Keep Portland Weird!

 

[RR7]

Except we still have a lot of those big city problems in Portland, without any of the big city benefits.

 

[MARIS61]

Care to make a wager? I'll bet I've lived in both metro Portland and the Chicagoland area. How much would you like to bet?

Once again, I applaud your willingness to expose your idiocy for all to see.

Yes, I already knew you had, but your post does "suggest" that you haven't, as you claim to think they are similar. They are not.

 

[maxiep]

Yes, I already knew you had, but your post does "suggest" that you haven't, as you claim to think they are similar. They are not.

Ohh, reading comprehension alert. Read this thread again and reconsider whether or not I believe Portland or Chicago are "similar". I was talking about comparable areas, meaning urban loft to urban loft, upscale suburb to upscale suburb and working class neighborhood to working class neighborhood.

 

[barfo]

http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/index.php/Kellogg/article/tax_incentives_and_the_city

http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/incentive/ti0106.htm

$63MM for 500 jobs. The original reason to move wasn't tax-based; Boeing is going to transform itself from a manufacturing company to an assembly company, which means they're going to lay off tens of thousands of employees in Washington. You want to make those kinds of moves living out of state. However, once the decision was made, it was a race to the bottom among Denver, the Metroplex and Chicago. Chicago gave up the most.

Thanks for the links. The second one has lots of useful details. The first one, well, anyone who has ever bought or sold anything knows that properties can be more valuable to one buyer than to another. That's not a "new idea".

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

Hmm, the numbers don't bear that out.

Chicago has more Fortune 500 headquarters than Portland and a higher population. You and I may prefer Portland to Chicago, but I know plenty of people who believe the opposite. See, people are different in all kinds of ways beyond your understanding.

It's older, it's bigger. and a humongous transportation hub, so that makes sense. New York is even older, bigger, and humongouser.

And I understand that different people have different wants and needs and are attracted to different things. No accounting for taste, or lack of it.

I also understand many people sacrifice their wants and needs for the promise of mindless accumulation of riches, and end up regretting it in the end.

 

[maxiep]

Thanks for the links. The second one has lots of useful details. The first one, well, anyone who has ever bought or sold anything knows that properties can be more valuable to one buyer than to another. That's not a "new idea".

barfo

Well, it's a Kellogg link. What can you expect from a University where the "N" stands for "Nowledge". (The U of C and Northwestern are rivals, at least on an academic basis).

 

[Blaze01]

So now people that make $125k are the wealthy elite?

I can understand the outrage of CEO's who make millions of dollars annually...but why hit the people makingg 125k? Why not set the limit at $500k or something? All this does is widen the gap b\t the have's and have not's...you think some CEO who made $10 million a year gives a rip about another 2%? Yet it hits the guy making 125k a lot harder. But of course, democrats & unions can't get to thier magical numbers just by taxing those making obscene amounts of money now can they.....

Can't wait to see Democrats roll out another save our schools blah blah blah campaign and asking Oregonians to foot another tax hike to stave it off....what a joke...

 

[The_Lillard_King]

You don't. Small businesses are much more stable, and usually have better overall benefits and working environments. They have a personal stake in the community, not just a financial one. They don't have their lawyers look for ways to sponge off the taxpayers or to "get around laws and regulations. They don't threaten to move every few years, as Nike has repeatedly done. They don't "own" your elected representatives, as Nike does.

Nothing sustainable about Nike, in terms of Oregon anyway.

The bulk of their 30,000 employees are out of state or country, they contract most of their labor from forced child labor camps run by criminal governments. They do not pay their share of taxes, they set a horrid example of business ethics which stains our state's reputation.

And I've never met an Oregonian who wanted a "large populace".

#1 reason people move to Oregon is to get away from all the crime, pollution, greed and hate that evolves in all large gatherings of human beings.

Sounds like you just described beautiful Bend Oregon . . . what's the unemployment rate down there again? Talk about sponging off taxpayers . . . is it fair to chase a dream in central Oregon and when the dream doesn't hit you count on the gov't to help you get by till you get another job in central Oregon. People filing for extended unemplyment benefits (Bend is way up there if not tops per capita) should be required to relocate to the tri-county area where they have a real chance of getting a job.

The reality is that for as much as you bad mouth Beaverton and Nike, Beaverton is financially secure and Nike creates a lot of jobs that provides for a more robust Oregon economy.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

So now people that make $125k are the wealthy elite?

I can understand the outrage of CEO's who make millions of dollars annually...but why hit the people makingg 125k? Why not set the limit at $500k or something? All this does is widen the gap b\t the have's and have not's...you think some CEO who made $10 million a year gives a rip about another 2%? Yet it hits the guy making 125k a lot harder. But of course, democrats & unions can't get to thier magical numbers just by taxing those making obscene amounts of money now can they.....

Can't wait to see Democrats roll out another save our schools blah blah blah campaign and asking Oregonians to foot another tax hike to stave it off....what a joke...

Sad thing is the Chicago Mayor is a democrat. I sometimes think Oregon is more than just democrat state . . . it is way way out left.

 

[MARIS61]

I bet you're wrong.

You lose.

The world is a big place with all kinds of cultural mores and business practices. I wouldn't want my child to work in a Nike factory, but I'm not going to make that decision for someone living in squalor in SE Asia. I would imagine whether the child works or not is the difference between eating and going hungry for the family.

These are FORCED LABOR CAMPS. Children held prisoner working 7 16-hr days a week. And obviously if Nike paid them a fair wage they wouldn't be living in squalor. $8.50 an hour would likely make them able to live like kings.

Well, you worked for the government for years, so actually you were a leech on those of us who have actually spent our lives producing. I'm interested in the concept that people who were racists and dishonest saw enough of themselves in you that they wished to work with you. Kindred spirits, I guess.

My 17 years working for my fellow citizens was an honor and a source of pride.

Overall, the people I worked side by side with in the government were more more driven, more ethical, more dedicated to their countrymen, and certainly far more productive than those in the private sector, where I have worked even longer and in several fields. It may be convenient for you to believe otherwise, but it's simply not the case.

I've been a licensed Realtor in Oregon for over 20 years, although you and I work in different areas. I work in commerical RE. Residential real estate is full of the most unethical people I've ever met. Please don't pretend that designation denotes any kind of nobility. The barrier to entry for a residential Realtor is some hair gel and a photo on a business card.

The designation denotes a promise of high ethical behaviour and trust. There are bad people everywhere, in every line of work. As a Realtor, if you know Realtors who are unethical you have a duty to report them so they can be dealt with. You are aware of this responsibility. I certainly hope you have the stones to do so rather than whine about them here.

Please don't pretend the commercial side is more ethical overall. I've worked both, and still do. Personally I get more pleasure and satisfaction helping people than business entities. I also find homes more interesting than commercial properties. There is greater potential to make huge money on the commercial side, but money is no longer a motivation for me. My time is far too prescious to be guided by the pursuit of more wealth.

(My replies are the bold statements.)

 

[MARIS61]

Ohh, reading comprehension alert. Read this thread again and reconsider whether or not I believe Portland or Chicago are "similar". I was talking about comparable areas, meaning urban loft to urban loft, upscale suburb to upscale suburb and working class neighborhood to working class neighborhood.

I must have forgotten you are a commercial agent. You compare box to box.

As a residential agent in one of the most beautiful spots on Earth, environment and aesthetics (both immediate and general) are at least half of the value of the home. My clients describe their desired setting (solitude, riverside, mountain view...) before they describe their housing needs. In this regard, there is simply no comparison at all.

 

[MARIS61]

So now people that make $125k are the wealthy elite?

To most people, yes.

That is just how enormous the class separation in America has become.

 

[yakbladder]

Intel--as part of that agreement--also agreed to pay Washington County $1,000 per employee per year for bringing in workers that would strain the County resources. An addendum to that agreement raised the price to $1,700 per year per employee. I can't recall the last time someone had to pay to increase employment.

So in exchange for saving millions upon millions of dollars they had to pay..what...maybe 5-20K at most? Please.

 

[yakbladder]

Sounds like you just described beautiful Bend Oregon . . . what's the unemployment rate down there again? Talk about sponging off taxpayers . . .

To be fair the primary, penultimate reason Bend is in a mess right now is because wealthy speculators kept jacking up the real estate and caused a construction boom, which brought in tons of people who demanded services. Take away the gas and the engine does not continue to run. There was never one major employer in Bend driven away by "high taxes" or anything of the sort.

I only wish I could've found a good job down there. I'd be calling Maris right now to get a deal. There are some SWEET properties with nice bits of land to be had for bargain prices still.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

To be fair the primary, penultimate reason Bend is in a mess right now is because wealthy speculators kept jacking up the real estate and caused a construction boom, which brought in tons of people who demanded services. Take away the gas and the engine does not continue to run. There was never one major employer in Bend driven away by "high taxes" or anything of the sort.

I only wish I could've found a good job down there. I'd be calling Maris right now to get a deal. There are some SWEET properties with nice bits of land to be had for bargain prices still.

I think a lot of people would love to find a job down there. That's kind of my point. I get why Maris is so proud of his home area. But I sometimes thinks he fails to understand the importance of big businesses. I acknowledge that big business in a community has some negatives . . . but there are also a lot of positives as well.


And it's not like Bend Oregon can act as the prototypical model city for the state.

 

[barfo]

To be fair the primary, penultimate reason Bend is in a mess right now is because wealthy speculators kept jacking up the real estate and caused a construction boom, which brought in tons of people who demanded services. Take away the gas and the engine does not continue to run. There was never one major employer in Bend driven away by "high taxes" or anything of the sort.

I was hottubbing with a guy who said that Mt. Bachelor was moving out of state next week due to the new taxes. Fucking liberals!

barfo

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I was hottubbing with a guy who said that Mt. Bachelor was moving out of state next week due to the new taxes. Fucking liberals!

barfo

You keep thinking this is all about the amount of new business tax. Your responses are always "I'm sure the new taxes don't make comapnies move."

Either you don't want to or can't understand that talk about business climate is real issue in the business world.

I've acknowledged taht gov't could be right this time and relly needs the money. Can you conceed taht the new measures really didn't sit well with business owners . . . and not because of the amount of new tax but ratehr the message and policies being implemented. I mean come on, a Chicago mayor has come out publically and called out Oregon as being out of touch with the business community . .. believe it or not, this measurewasn't all good.

But I know . .. "it wasn't that much tax so no way the measure makes companies move."

 

[barfo]

You keep thinking this is all about the amount of new business tax. Your responses are always "I'm sure the new taxes don't make comapnies move."

Either you don't want to or can't understand that talk about business climate is real issue in the business world.

I've acknowledged taht gov't could be right this time and relly needs the money. Can you conceed taht the new measures really didn't sit well with business owners . . . and not because of the amount of new tax but ratehr the message and policies being implemented. I mean come on, a Chicago mayor has come out publically and called out Oregon as being out of touch with the business community . .. believe it or not, this measurewasn't all good.

But I know . .. "it wasn't that much tax so no way the measure makes companies move."

Yes, I can concede that the taxes, despite being monetarily insignificant, have an emotional effect on many people. I don't understand why anyone would feel emotional about taxes, but I understand that many do.

barfo

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Yes, I can concede that the taxes, despite being monetarily insignificant, have an emotional effect on many people. I don't understand why anyone would feel emotional about taxes, but I understand that many do.

barfo

I don't have a problem understanding why people feel emotional about taxes, so maybe that is why we see this issue so differntly.

To try and explain, most people work very hard for their money and when the gov't comes in and takes a chunk away, you want to know what it is going to. If you feel like the gov't is wasting money, then it is upsetting to work so hard for money and give it away only to have it wasted. Money being the most cited reason for divorce, shows that people get very emotional about money.

From a business perspective, the idea that the gov't first looks to corporation and individuals making over 125,000 to make up the shortfall of the budget that was created by the public employees retirment program is troubling. The fact the measure was retroactive and impacting businesses before businesses knew the rules that were in place, makes many feel helpless to the gov't and public employee unions . . . and feeling helpless makes one emotional.

Hope that helps.

 

[barfo]

I don't have a problem understanding why people feel emotional about taxes, so maybe that is why we see this issue so differntly.

To try and explain, most people work very hard for their money and when the gov't comes in and takes a chunk away, you want to know what it is going to. If you feel like the gov't is wasting money, then it is upsetting to work so hard for money and give it away only to have it wasted. Money being the most cited reason for divorce, shows that people get very emotional about money.

From a business perspective, the idea that the gov't first looks to corporation and individuals making over 125,000 to make up the shortfall of the budget that was created by the public employees retirment program is troubling. The fact the measure was retroactive and impacting businesses before businesses knew the rules that were in place, makes many feel helpless to the gov't and public employee unions . . . and feeling helpless makes one emotional.

Hope that helps.

Suppose you go into your local grocery store to buy a six-pack of your favorite beer. You notice that the price has gone up from $6.89 to $6.99. You don't understand why. You don't see that the store or the brewer or the distribution company are hurting for money. But there's nothing you can do about it. No one explains to you why the price went up or who got that extra dime. Over the next few weeks you check other nearby stores and the price of the beer has increased there too.

What do you do? Do you post endlessly about how horrible it is? Do you go to anti-beer-price-increase rallies? Do you bitterly point out that some beers in some other states are cheaper?

Probably not. Probably at most you mention it to the wife when you get home, and she points out that you could save a lot of money by not drinking as much, and so then you shut up and forget about it.

Yeah, I know. It's not the same because taxes are mandatory. You could just not buy beer. But you aren't going to do that, are you? You are going to go right on buying the beer, even though it costs more. And you are going to go right on paying the tax. Yes, in theory you could move out of state, but you aren't actually going to do that either. So why whine about one and not the other?

barfo

 

[RR7]

Wait, they're raising taxes on beer? It's gone too far.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Suppose you go into your local grocery store to buy a six-pack of your favorite beer. You notice that the price has gone up from $6.89 to $6.99. You don't understand why. You don't see that the store or the brewer or the distribution company are hurting for money. But there's nothing you can do about it. No one explains to you why the price went up or who got that extra dime. Over the next few weeks you check other nearby stores and the price of the beer has increased there too.

What do you do? Do you post endlessly about how horrible it is? Do you go to anti-beer-price-increase rallies? Do you bitterly point out that some beers in some other states are cheaper?

Probably not. Probably at most you mention it to the wife when you get home, and she points out that you could save a lot of money by not drinking as much, and so then you shut up and forget about it.

Yeah, I know. It's not the same because taxes are mandatory. You could just not buy beer. But you aren't going to do that, are you? You are going to go right on buying the beer, even though it costs more. And you are going to go right on paying the tax. Yes, in theory you could move out of state, but you aren't actually going to do that either. So why whine about one and not the other?

barfo

So basically just take it and not complain? So when the Blazers don't make a trade . . . no complaining, no whining because I'll always be a Blazer fan so what is the point of complaining? I thought this was an OT board to discuss things like taxes. I didn't know that one needs to complain about all taxes when complaining about the recently passed tax measures.


And it's not like I'm taking some small obscure point and making a big deal out of it. As I already mentioned, this is such a big deal that the Oreogn election was being watched nationally and now being critized by some credible politicians out there.

And to make your hypothetical more accurate. . . when you go back to buy beer, they tell you that not only is the beer more money, the last six pack they charged you for, the prices were raised on that beer too. So not only do you owe us more for the new six pack, you owe more money for the six pack you bought . . . last year.