Childless couples are happiest.

[EL PRESIDENTE]

You must have had one fucked up childhood, if that's what you really believe. I'm not saying that people should have kids, either. It's not for everyone, but most parents I know aren't living through their kids, and the ones that are stand out to the rest of the parents.

It's not just living through their kids. It's the whole concept of having a family which is for the parents sole pleasure. The chance to create a legacy.

Not saying there is anything wrong with it but producing offspring is in no way selfless. Adoption is selfless. Having kids is for the most part more about the parents than it is for non existent kids.



hoop fam

 

[PapaG]

Yeah, but how often do you actually go anywhere you want, and do anything you want? That sounds like a very short sighted, 20 something mindset.

If money/adventure is your excuse for not having kids, then do us all a favor, and don't have any kids, because it sounds like you'd be one of those dads who doesn't get it.

I think that's what The Prez is saying, though. He realizes he'd be a terrible dad, and sure, maybe he's trying to make himself feel better about it by putting down those of us with kids, but at least it appears he won't be having kids.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

It's not so much a money/adventure but a time and responsibility commitment. Which overall saps freedom of life.

hoop fam

 

[PapaG]

It's not just living through their kids. It's the whole concept of having a family which is for the parents sole pleasure. The chance to create a legacy.

Not saying there is anything wrong with it but producing offspring is in no way selfless. Adoption is selfless. Having kids is for the most part more about the parents than it is for non existent kids.



hoop fam

You remind me a bit of people I know who treat their pets as kids, without having kids. I take their opinions about kids the same as I take yours; knowing that I've lived both lives (we didn't have kids until age 31), and that I have a lot more experience in family life than them or you.

Also, who said having kids is selfless? I certainly don't feel that way. It's a responsibility that my wife and I chose after having 6 years as DINKs and traveling wherever we wanted, and when we wanted. That got old, and we wanted a family. It was probably selfish of us in that way to choose to have a family.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

You remind me a bit of people I know who treat their pets as kids, without having kids. I take their opinions about kids the same as I take yours; knowing that I've lived both lives (we didn't have kids until age 31), and that I have a lot more experience in family life than them or you.

Also, who said having kids is selfless? I certainly don't feel that way.

Pets suck.

hoop fam

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Why did you have kids?

hoop fam

 

[PapaG]

Why did you have kids?

hoop fam

To share our lives with, and share our love with them. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[julius]

It's not so much a money/adventure but a time and responsibility commitment. Which overall saps freedom of life.

hoop fam

I think the issue is what people base "life" on. For me, I'd rather be responsible and not be a commitment phobe.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

To share our lives with, and share our love with them. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

So it's all about you. Filling a void in your life. A need.

hoop fam

 

[PapaG]

I think the issue is what people base "life" on. For me, I'd rather be responsible and not be a commitment phobe.

I get the feeling El Prez may have been pressured by his family to succeed. Jesuit High, at least in my stereotypical world, is full of kids whose parents are trying to live through their kids. The parents I know from our kids' public school are pretty much all great people, with the one or two who are screamers and yellers at soccer games. That's very rare, though.

 

[PapaG]

So it's all about you. Filling a void in your life. A need.

hoop fam

I didn't say that at all. There was no void, only a maturity that allowed us to expand our family and share life with our kids.

Why are you so angry at your parents?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I get the feeling El Prez may have been pressured by his family to succeed. Jesuit High, at least in my stereotypical world, is full of kids whose parents are trying to live through their kids. The parents I know from our kids' public school are pretty much all great people, with the one or two who are screamers and yellers at soccer games. That's very rare, though.

Or they are catholic.

hoop fam

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I didn't say that at all. There was no void, only a maturity that allowed us to expand our family and share life with our kids.

Why are you so angry at your parents?

I'm not. This is a philosophical discussion.



hoop fam

 

[PapaG]

Or they are catholic.

hoop fam

I know plenty of Catholic kids in Tualatin whose kids are classmates of mine. Some even live in Victoria Woods, and some even have kids at TuHS. I guess not all rich Catholics feel the need to spend $25k/year and bus their kids 45 minutes away to school?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

"Share life with our kids". When making the decision to have kids...They do not exist. You are having the kids to supposedly add to your life. Like any other possession. This is the basis of saying having kids is for the benefit of the parents.

hoop fam

 

[PapaG]

I'm not. This is a philosophical discussion.



hoop fam

No it isn't. I accept and understand why some people don't want to have kids. I think it's great that you don't want to have kids, because I doubt at this point of your life you'd have the first clue about loving and caring about someone other than yourself.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I know plenty of Catholic kids in Tualatin whose kids are classmates of mine. Some even live in Victoria Woods, and some even have kids at TuHS. I guess not all rich Catholics feel the need to spend $25k/year and bus their kids 45 minutes away to school?

Ok. Good for them.

hoop fam

 

[julius]

I get the feeling El Prez may have been pressured by his family to succeed. Jesuit High, at least in my stereotypical world, is full of kids whose parents are trying to live through their kids. The parents I know from our kids' public school are pretty much all great people, with the one or two who are screamers and yellers at soccer games. That's very rare, though.

I don't know about that (because I just don't know. Not saying I disagree or agree). I think we're all damaged, so to speak, by our upbringing. Whether it's socio-economic issues, or family/preferences. He might or might not fit what you said, but it's an interesting thing to think about.

For example, I think the impact of family/upbringing has huge impacts on your choices in having a family. I have a cousin who espouses a lot of the same things El Prez is saying, about having a family. He's in his late 20's, and doesn't seem to think it makes sense to have a family, talking about how parents living "vicariously" through their kids is pathetic and all the other cliches that you can think of.

I think that it's more to do with him not wanting to have kids and subject them to the weirdness of his upbringing. His parents got married and divorced twice, to each other, and he dad was not exactly a good father. He says that's not the reason, and I'm not saying it's El Prez's reason either.

 

[PapaG]

"Share life with our kids". When making the decision to have kids...They do not exist. You are having the kids to supposedly add to your life. Like any other possession.

hoop fam

There is no guarantee that the kids will exist. It took us a year and half to have our first, and than was with help. If it hadn't happened for us, we would have adopted. My wife was adopted. You call that selfless.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

No it isn't. I accept and understand why some people don't want to have kids. I think it's great that you don't want to have kids, because I doubt at this point of your life you'd have the first clue about loving and caring about someone other than yourself.

And that leads to happiness. The greatest love of all.

hoop fam

 

[PapaG]

I don't know about that (because I just don't know. Not saying I disagree or agree). I think we're all damaged (to so speak) by our upbringing. Whether it's socio-economic issues, or family/preferences. He might or might not fit what you said, but it's an interesting thing to think about.

For example, I think the impact of family/upbringing has huge impacts on your choices in having a family. I have a cousin who espouses a lot of the same things El Prez is saying, about having a family. He's in his late 20's, and doesn't seem to think it makes sense to have a family, talking about how parents living "vicariously" through their kids is pathetic and all the other cliches that you can think of.

I think that it's more to do with him not wanting to have kids and subject them to the weirdness of his upbringing. His parents got married and divorced twice, to each other, and he dad was not exactly a good father. He says that's not the reason, and I'm not saying it's El Prez's reason either.

I don't know The Prez's reasons, I can only go by what is known here about him. Private schooling, rich parents, frequent trips to Vegas, partying in LA nightclubs ... that's a fun life for a single guy. When that guy tries to pigeonhole all parents in a manner, though, that's where I have to laugh about it, and try to find out underlying issues. I know that some people have horrible upbringings and become great parents, and that some people have terrific upbringings and decide not to become parents.

 

[PapaG]

And that leads to happiness. The greatest love of all.

hoop fam

I know that's where you're coming from, and there is nothing wrong with it!

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I don't know The Prez's reasons, I can only go by what is known here about him. Private schooling, rich parents, frequent trips to Vegas, partying in LA nightclubs ... that's a fun life for a single guy. When that guy tries to pigeonhole all parents in a manner, though, that's where I have to laugh about it, and try to find out underlying issues. I know that some people have horrible upbringings and become great parents, and that some people have terrific upbringings and decide not to become parents.

You know I like to take veiled cheap shots at normal modern American life.

hoop fam

 

[julius]

I don't know The Prez's reasons, I can only go by what is known here about him. Private schooling, rich parents, frequent trips to Vegas, partying in LA nightclubs ... that's a fun life for a single guy. When that guy tries to pigeonhole all parents in a manner, though, that's where I have to laugh about it, and try to find out underlying issues. I know that some people have horrible upbringings and become great parents, and that some people have terrific upbringings and decide not to become parents.

true, sometimes it doesn't matter about parents/upbringing in regards to the QUALITY of parent you can be. But I think it does matter in whether or not SOME people want to be parents (like my cousin).

For me, the idea of partying in LA night clubs (or any night clubs), tips to Vegas, etc, hasn't appealed to me in 15 years. I don't fault him IF that's what genuinely appeals to him. But the idea of having a family doesn't appeal to me either. Not because of the reasons El Prez had laid out (I find those reasons to be very stupid to be honest), but just because I don't have the drive to have a family anymore. Hard to explain.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Vegas and all that get boring after awhile. Times change.

I think it's more of an LA state of mind. There is less emphasis on family and kids and more emphasis of enjoying oneself

hoop fam

 

[PapaG]

Vegas and all that get boring after awhile. Times change.

I think it's more of an LA state of mind. There is less emphasis on family and kids and more emphasis of enjoying oneself

hoop fam

People that don't want kids, and realize it, don't bother me at all.

The people I referenced earlier, who literally call their dogs or cats their "kids", and talk about them as their kids, automatically go on my Weirdo List, though. I have a dog and cat too. We put the dog in a travel kennel all day while we're at work, and if we leave town for a weekend, we leave the cat in the house with a food timer, a big bucket of water, and a fresh pan of kitty litter. The dog either comes with us and rides in the back of the Escalade without a seatbelt, or we pay to have him stay with strangers in a kennel.

I wonder what would happen if we did either with our girls?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

We took the girls to Disney World in early December 2012. They missed a week of school, but it was before any breaks, and it was after all of the XMas stuff was up in the parks. Awesome trip, and the girls were old enough to ride all the rides, with almost no lines. We would get off of Tower of Terror, Aerosmith Coaster, Space Mountain, Thunder Mountain Coaster, or whatever, and be able to basically only wait one or two rides before getting back on board. During the late nights you get if you stay at a Disney Resort, we literally would rest in between rides, and watched the firework show at Magic Kingdom while riding Thunder Mountain as a family 3 or 4 times. Conversely, we went to Disneyland last Spring Break, and spent most of the time in lines, or waiting until it was our FastPass window.

Jumping back into this late and I know this thread went a different way but . . .. that is totally the way to go (taking kids out of school). And do it early and often because by middle school it's tougher to take them out of school for a week.

Disneyland, I know exactly what you are talking about, night and day when it is holiday or break time vs. during regular school time.

Also if you can travel last minute, there are deals to be had out there.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Another interesting thought in all this is if you decide to have kids, when is the best time. Kids take energy and people tend to have more energy in their younger years. Also if you have kids early, you get the family experience but probably get your life back when you are young enough to enjoy it. But raising kids takes patience and maturity. Also being finically stable can take a lot of stress out of the parenthood experience. That would tend lean towards having them latter in life.

Each person is going to be different. In my book, being unselfish is one of the biggest parts to be a good parent . . . and I seem to become less selfish as I get older. I figure by the time I'm 102 years old, I'll be ready.

 

[MickZagger]

I feel like we've had this conversation before.

El Prez loves his perpetual single life and the people who have kids love their kids obviously. What are we trying to convince each other of? Am I missing something?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I feel like we've had this conversation before.

El Prez loves his perpetual single life and the people who have kids love their kids obviously. What are we trying to convince each other of? Am I missing something?

Benghazi

hoop fam