Cho vs. KP

[Drttimmy]

The Roy/Aldridge draft wasn't just KP. The old regime had it's fingerprints all over those picks. The drafts where it was just KP is proving to be a disaster. Jason Quick said after his firing that if he had it his way we would have drafted Adam Morrison over Brandon Roy. KP's track record speaks for itself.

Greg Oden
Rudy Fernandez
Josh McRoberts
Taurean Green
Jerryd Bayless
Nicolas Batum
Victor Claver
Jeff Pendergraph
Dante Cunningham
Patty Mills
Luke Babbitt
Armon Johnson
Eliot Williams

7 of those guys were 1st round picks. 4 of the 6 2nd round picks are rotational players for someboy, which is pretty darn good for 2nd round value.

Williams gets a pass because he missed his rookie year. Oden was just bad luck. He was drafted with injury issues, but no one could have predicted he'd essentially miss 3 of his first 4 years to season ending injuries. When he plays he's a great value. Bayless was a great value pick (forecasted as 4th pick player that we basically got at 11). Tough to fault that pick. Rudy has probably earned his worth as a 3 million dollar investment.

Babbitt and Claver are probably bust picks. If KP can be faulted for anything, it was his inability to get a young point guard, as there were several from the past 3 drafts he could have landed that would have helped us. All in all, a pretty decent track record that basically turned out worse case scenario. The best case, would have us still playing right now. He's a risk taker.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

If KP had selected Durant over Oden he would have been hung in effigy. Oden was the right pick at that time. Any GM who would have picked otherwise would be fired and never again see the NBA. It was that much of a no brainer.

You think the GM would have been fired immediately after making the pick? That makes no sense. They would have at least waited for the season. The season in which Greg Oden would not play a minute. Why would the GM who picked Durant be fired then?

 

[jlprk]

Bayless was a great value pick (forecasted as 4th pick player that we basically got at 11). Tough to fault that pick.

One media guy predicted Bayless at 4, the only GM who took the bait was Pritchard at 11, so this makes Pritchard a GM who gets great bargains.

Only trouble is, Bayless should have gone at about 40.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

sig fail jlprk, epic sig fail

i still have hope for koponen/freeland/claver/babbitt/ewill/armon

 

[Drttimmy]

One media guy predicted Bayless at 4, the only GM who took the bait was Pritchard at 11, so this makes Pritchard a GM who gets great bargains.

Only trouble is, Bayless should have gone at about 40.

In hindsight, probably. Bayless had the highest potential of the guys we traded him for. When you're a team like Portland -- with limited resources and perennially picking in the mid-upper half of the first round -- you gotta take chances like this and I think it's the best personnel philosophy. Where I fault KP is he waited for Bayless to develop instead of continuing to look to upgrade the position.

 

[RoyToy]

In hindsight, probably. Bayless had the highest potential of the guys we traded him for. When you're a team like Portland -- with limited resources and perennially picking in the mid-upper half of the first round -- you gotta take chances like this and I think it's the best personnel philosophy. Where I fault KP is he waited for Bayless to develop instead of continuing to look to upgrade the position.

?

He signed Andre Miller meaning Bayless could develop while playing backup PG. Not sure how he was waiting for Bayless to develop and not upgrading the position. Only problem was Blake was still on the roster which cut into Bayless' minutes.

All I know is Cho traded a guy that averaged 14/4 in the playoffs in his 2nd year in the league at 21 years of age for......nothing. Terrible.

Bayless is now starting to blossom and had a monster April to end the season. His progression is reminiscent of Mike Conley's. All he needed was time to figure it out but Cho would have none of it.

What a dipshit.

 

[PapaG]

One media guy predicted Bayless at 4, the only GM who took the bait was Pritchard at 11, so this makes Pritchard a GM who gets great bargains.

Only trouble is, Bayless should have gone at about 40.

Bayless should have gone right where he went. Trading him for the 20th pick in a weak draft was a stupid move by Cho.

 

[B-Roy]

Bayless should have gone right where he went. Trading him for the 20th pick in a weak draft was a stupid move by Cho.

This.

 

[Ed O]

Bayless should have gone right where he went. Trading him for the 20th pick in a weak draft was a stupid move by Cho.

Yep. Bayless isn't a heck of a lot older than some of the guys who are going to go in the first round and he's got a lot of potential to improve still, IMO.

Ed O.



Ed O.

 

[jlprk]

Great move trading Bayless, McMillan! Pretty smart, striking when a brand new GM had just started and would do your bidding. Then they'll blame Cho!

sig fail jlprk, epic sig fail

My computer won't start or I'd put in a new 5 items just for you. So I can't get to my reserve file full of about 20 new ones and change my signature. I'm on someone's computer right now shopping for a laptop to replace the old clunker.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Bill Simmons has a term for players like Bayless and I tend to agree with applying that label to Jerryd after watching him in fits and starts here and catching him occasionally in his role with Toronto this year: "Big numbers on a bad team" guy; he's the kind of player that will probably find ways to score and get his as the years run on, but I seriously question whether he'll ever learn how to play a winning brand of basketball -- it's incredibly tough (nearly impossible?) for a player to radically improve their court vision and convert themselves from a small scoring guard to an actual point guard once they are in the NBA, the only guy I can think of is Billups.

Bayless probably would have been an improvement over Patty or Armon this past year, but long term? He feels like a dead-ender.

 

[jlprk]

I used to post that Bayless had chosen the wrong sport. Just because a guy has quickness and plays aggressively doesn't mean he is suited for the game of basketball.

He'd have been better at any sport not requiring a lot of passing. He would have had the same problems in soccer or hockey or maybe rugby. He should have played football or baseball or croquet or bridge.

 

[Minstrel]

Bill Simmons has a term for players like Bayless and I tend to agree with applying that label to Jerryd after watching him in fits and starts here and catching him occasionally in his role with Toronto this year: "Big numbers on a bad team" guy

That's a pretty novel idea by Bill Simmons. He's always on the cutting edge. Reminds me of the term I pioneered: "politicians who make overly ambitious promises to get elected." Wonder if it'll catch on.

he's the kind of player that will probably find ways to score and get his as the years run on, but I seriously question whether he'll ever learn how to play a winning brand of basketball -- it's incredibly tough (nearly impossible?) for a player to radically improve their court vision and convert themselves from a small scoring guard to an actual point guard once they are in the NBA, the only guy I can think of is Billups

So "winning basketball" means being a point guard? That's bad news for Dwight Howard, he'll never win!

I think Bayless can be a part of a winning team. Probably not as a point guard, but as a scorer who can pass.

 

[Blaze01]

Technically POR gave up Bayless to get Wallace, at least that is how I look at it. As viewed as a trade for the #20 pick, I would agree it was not a good deal for POR. I would agree that Cho miscalculated on that trade, which he even surprisingly admitted. However, CHA wanted multiple picks and having the pick allowed POR to make a deal for Wallace, so I think it worked out ok for POR.

I mean if you asked most fans would they trade Bayless, Cunningham, Przybilla and 2013' pick for Wallace? I would think most people would respond to that with a yes.....

Not having Bayless, and with E.Williams being out all year, certainly negatively impacted our backcourt leaving only A.Johnson and Mills as b\u PG, both of whom were awful IMO....

 

[magnifier661]

I mean if you asked most fans would they trade Bayless, Cunningham, Przybilla and 2013' pick for Wallace? I would think most people would respond to that with a yes.....

Actually they would say "No way we get Wallace for that crap!"

 

[BrianFromWA]

Technically POR gave up Bayless to get Wallace, at least that is how I look at it. As viewed as a trade for the #20 pick, I would agree it was not a good deal for POR. I would agree that Cho miscalculated on that trade, which he even surprisingly admitted. However, CHA wanted multiple picks and having the pick allowed POR to make a deal for Wallace, so I think it worked out ok for POR.

I mean if you asked most fans would they trade Bayless, Cunningham, Przybilla and 2013' pick for Wallace? I would think most people would respond to that with a yes.....

Not having Bayless, and with E.Williams being out all year, certainly negatively impacted our backcourt leaving only A.Johnson and Mills as b\u PG, both of whom were awful IMO....

I think that NO WAY do they take Bayless over a draft pick. Draft picks, not 9th-men guards, are the major currency by which trades are made (expiring contracts as well). Cho understood this, and made the trade early so he'd have ammunition. I'm stoked to see what he does in the draft with Uncle Paul's millions.

 

[Nikolokolus]

So "winning basketball" means being a point guard? That's bad news for Dwight Howard, he'll never win!

I think Bayless can be a part of a winning team. Probably not as a point guard, but as a scorer who can pass.

It's got nothing to do with his position, it's his mentality.

 

[PapaG]

I think that NO WAY do they take Bayless over a draft pick. Draft picks, not 9th-men guards, are the major currency by which trades are made (expiring contracts as well). Cho understood this, and made the trade early so he'd have ammunition. I'm stoked to see what he does in the draft with Uncle Paul's millions.

Meanwhile, the team lost 2 more games than last year, and didn't have a legitimate back-up PG the entire season.

Still doesn't have one, actually.

 

[BrianFromWA]

personally speaking, would you have still made the trade ASSUMING that with Bayless here all year, you don't get Wallace, and with a draft pick, you do? I don't think the dropoff from Bayless to whoever our other PG was (Mills, Rudy, Johnson, Roy, ?) was on the top 10 list of reasons we were two games worse than last year.


I think the long-awaited consolidation trade helped out a lot more, especially in the long run, than the dropoff between Bayless and whoever our backup was. And in a consolidation (especially if you aren't positive who you'll get or who you're trading with), having a draft pick is generally more popular than having a player (and concomitant salary that comes with him).

 

[PapaG]

personally speaking, would you have still made the trade ASSUMING that with Bayless here all year, you don't get Wallace, and with a draft pick, you do? I don't think the dropoff from Bayless to whoever our other PG was (Mills, Rudy, Johnson, Roy, ?) was on the top 10 list of reasons we were two games worse than last year.


I think the long-awaited consolidation trade helped out a lot more, especially in the long run, than the dropoff between Bayless and whoever our backup was. And in a consolidation (especially if you aren't positive who you'll get or who you're trading with), having a draft pick is generally more popular than having a player (and concomitant salary that comes with him).

I assume that Charlotte would have taken the Blazer draft pick. If having draft picks is such a big deal, why has Paul Allen been able to buy them late in the draft? I'm sure Paul could just buy another pick this season is the Blazers wanted one. I don't think it was worth giving up a young guard who averaged 14/3/4 with a PER of 15.6 in the previous playoffs for a first-round pick and no PG last season. Bayless would have helped against Dallas because he can create his own offense and can get to the line. Would that have changed the series? Unlikely. Would it have increased the chances of not having long stretches without scoring? Likely.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Because at the draft, selling your pick both gets you cash (3M a pop) and removes the need for you to shell out a guaranteed 4yr/8M deal to someone that you think may not be worth the cost of, say, the 25th pick. So it's a 10M or so gain for selling the chance to draft the 25th-best player or whatever. Conversely, at the trade deadline, it's not about costs savings in draft picks...it's about costs savings in salary or stockpiling assets that don't cost you anything and represent promise/upside.

But that wasn't the case when Bayless was traded. You won't hear me say that he was horrible, but at the time the NOH pick was looking like a low lotto pick (7-14), and that represented significant value in trade over the difference between Bayless and Mills/JOhnson. I grant you (and Cho already has) that if he knew it was going to be for the 20th pick, maybe he doesn't make that trade; but if you do that you also should acknowledge that if he knew it would get Wallace he probably does anyway.

 

[PapaG]

Because at the draft, selling your pick both gets you cash (3M a pop) and removes the need for you to shell out a guaranteed 4yr/8M deal to someone that you think may not be worth the cost of, say, the 25th pick. So it's a 10M or so gain for selling the chance to draft the 25th-best player or whatever. Conversely, at the trade deadline, it's not about costs savings in draft picks...it's about costs savings in salary or stockpiling assets that don't cost you anything and represent promise/upside.

But that wasn't the case when Bayless was traded. You won't hear me say that he was horrible, but at the time the NOH pick was looking like a low lotto pick (7-14), and that represented significant value in trade over the difference between Bayless and Mills/JOhnson. I grant you (and Cho already has) that if he knew it was going to be for the 20th pick, maybe he doesn't make that trade; but if you do that you also should acknowledge that if he knew it would get Wallace he probably does anyway.

Even better to not have a pick then. If a player is available that you like, you try and buy the pick (like what happened with Batum and Rudy). I'd rather have the option to not draft a player than to be forced into drafting a player in the 20s of the first round. Also, are you saying that Cho knew he'd get Gerald Wallace with that pick (which was unnecessary anyhow, as already explained). Maybe Bayless will be a complete bust. I don't know, but he has shown improvement, and could turn into a very good bench player/6th man. I just didn't like giving up on him, and it did hurt the team this season.

 

[BrianFromWA]

No, I'm saying that he probably had a sense of what kind of consolidation trade he wanted to make, and instead of having a backup PG to peddle (which has value limited to teams who need a young backup PG/SG), he had an (at the time) lotto pick, which every GM has some kind of value for.

It's like the difference between selling your old coffee table for $40 cash or a $50 Bed, Bath and Beyond gift card. If your wife has told you she wants something specific for her birthday from BB&B, and you can pick up the gift card, then it's worth trading for. But if you're not sure what you're going to get, then having the gift card over cash (even if the cash is less value) is limiting your options.

 

[brsinepyce]

Acquiring Gerald Wallace for Przybilla made the team older and less dynamic.....mmmmkayyy.

lol @ whoever originally said that

 

[PapaG]

Larry Miller, Dirt Clod, and Hat Guy beat both of them.

 

[Minstrel]

Larry Miller, Dirt Clod, and Hat Guy beat both of them.

I see you've gone back to an old classic avatar. I wonder if it'll end up being an annual thing.

 

[PapaG]

I see you've gone back to an old classic avatar. I wonder if it'll end up being an annual thing.

It's a timeless classic. Perhaps I'll just put in a random Spinal Tap drummer in the subsequent months nd years.

 

[Blaze01]

I assume that Charlotte would have taken the Blazer draft pick. If having draft picks is such a big deal, why has Paul Allen been able to buy them late in the draft? I'm sure Paul could just buy another pick this season is the Blazers wanted one. I don't think it was worth giving up a young guard who averaged 14/3/4 with a PER of 15.6 in the previous playoffs for a first-round pick and no PG last season. Bayless would have helped against Dallas because he can create his own offense and can get to the line. Would that have changed the series? Unlikely. Would it have increased the chances of not having long stretches without scoring? Likely.

Let's assume that POR didn't trade Bayless for a draft pick, the main point I look at is that if CHA requested Bayless, Cunningham, Przybilla and a 2013 pick for Wallace, would you have been in favor of that deal?

I agree that the lack of a b\u PG was not good, as was the lack of any players outside of Aldridge and an off\on again Roy to create scoring opportunties.

But if Bayless was required to get Wallace from CHA, would you say no? b\c I don't think you would..

I think he took a bad deal (Bayless for #20) and turned that asset into something good (Wallace)

 

[Ed O]

Let's assume that POR didn't trade Bayless for a draft pick, the main point I look at is that if CHA requested Bayless, Cunningham, Przybilla and a 2013 pick for Wallace, would you have been in favor of that deal?

I agree that the lack of a b\u PG was not good, as was the lack of any players outside of Aldridge and an off\on again Roy to create scoring opportunties.

But if Bayless was required to get Wallace from CHA, would you say no? b\c I don't think you would..

I think he took a bad deal (Bayless for #20) and turned that asset into something good (Wallace)

I'd happily give our first rounder for Bayless. Presumably our first rounder would have been enough to get Wallace.

The deal was a bad one, irrespective of the Wallace trade.

Ed O.

 

[Drttimmy]

The motive to trade Bayless wasn't to pick up a trading chip (the 1st round pick). They traded him because there wasn't a spot for him and he wanted out. Maybe you don't concede to player demands, but we have a long history of sitting on guys and eventually ridding them at low value.

In hindsight, he probably could have logged some minutes at two with Roy missing so much time, but at the time it was a necessary move and we got decent value. I see no reason to look back on this one.