Chuck Still thinks Blake, Love > LA

[MAS RipCity]

"Hey, this kid's having a terrific season," Barkley said. "But I'm already on the record: If Kevin Love and Blake Griffin don't make the All-Star team, I think it would be a travesty."

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Chuck is bat **** crazy if he thinks Love should be in over Aldridge. Does he watch head-to-head matchups?

 

[Mediocre Man]

Both have better numbers that LA. LA's team is better though?

 

[MAS RipCity]

Blazers wins: 24
Clippers + Wolves: 26

Blazers head-to-head: 6-0 against LAC & Minnesota

The NBA has always said they value players putting up numbers on winning teams. We'll see if the trend continues

 

[Ed O]

Love is having a great season for a 22 year-old. Not just good. Great.

Griffin is one of the most impressive players in the NBA.

I hope Aldridge makes it, but I don't know that he deserves it ahead of either of those guys.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

Both have better numbers that LA. LA's team is better though?

Both are also probably the worst defending PFs in the NBA, though.

While LMA was defending Griffin during the game, Griffin got to coast while 'defending' Przy after he had to be pulled off of LMA.

Love was so embarrassed on defense by LMA TWICE that he looked like he might cry.

Stats are fun in fantasy basketball, but coaches are paid to win, and defense helps win games.

 

[PapaG]

Love is having a great season for a 22 year-old. Not just good. Great.

Griffin is one of the most impressive players in the NBA.

I hope Aldridge makes it, but I don't know that he deserves it ahead of either of those guys.

Ed O.

I have a real problem with young players on bad teams, who can't even defend their position, getting star treatment. LMA made Griffin and his stubby arms look like a joke on offense last night. I almost felt bad for Griffin at times, because he just could not get anything going against LMA's length.

Then, for the most part, Griffin gets to pick his nose while 'guarding' Przy and crash the boards while D'Andre Jordan defends LMA because Griffin failed at it. LMA is playing both halves of the court, and his team won by 15.

 

[Rhal]

Surprised that Barkely loves player who tear it up on the offensive end but are a liability on the defensive end? LMA is the player on the better team who has way better defense then both of those guys but he is not as showy as Blake Griffen the human highlight reel, nor does he get the garbage time minutes that love dominates and makes his stats look godly.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Stats are fun in fantasy basketball, but coaches are paid to win, and defense helps win games.

But not all-star games. Defense isn't played in all-star games. Defense is completely ignored in terms of all-star games, unless there are big stats to go with it (ie, Ben Wallace's rebounds/blocks). Love/Griffin's defensive deficiencies don't factor in to this discussion.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I have a real problem with young players on bad teams, who can't even defend their position, getting star treatment. LMA made Griffin and his stubby arms look like a joke on offense last night. I almost felt bad for Griffin at times, because he just could not get anything going against LMA's length.

Then, for the most part, Griffin gets to pick his nose while 'guarding' Przy and crash the boards while D'Andre Jordan defends LMA because Griffin failed at it.

In Griffin's defense not many people have been able to slow LMA down in the last 20 games or so. And on a bad night he still managed to put up 20/18.

 

[MAS RipCity]

Love is not that good. I don't care if he averages 20 & 20, he puts up hollow stats. His rebounds don't impact the game, they are just Z-Bo stat-padders from missed multiple tip ins. He plays zero defense and is just a glorified garbage man. I'm glad Minny has something to hang their hants on, but he's just not that good. if he was, the Wolves would have more than 10 wins on the season.

 

[PapaG]

But not all-star games. Defense isn't played in all-star games. Defense is completely ignored in terms of all-star games, unless there are big stats to go with it (ie, Ben Wallace's rebounds/blocks). Love/Griffin's defensive deficiencies don't factor in to this discussion.

Defense and wins will matter in terms of the coaches who vote the players into the game. Whether or not defense is played in the All-Star game will have no impact on who the coaches vote into the game. I'm sure Nate is lobbying his fellow coaches who he isn't playing in recent games; those who have played against "new LMA" see what he's doing while leading his team to wins.

 

[PapaG]

In Griffin's defense not many people have been able to slow LMA down in the last 20 games or so. And on a bad night he still managed to put up 20/18.

All that shows me is that he is a stat monster at this point. He doesn't have to defend (much like Kevin Love), so he just gets to roam around on defense and use his explosiveness to get rebounds. He's a very good garbage man right now, perhaps the greatest in NBA history at such a young age.

 

[Rhal]

Griffen is ALL about the stats. Anyone see him rushing for the rebound when the game was already over last night?

 

[Nikolokolus]

All that shows me is that he is a stat monster at this point. He doesn't have to defend (much like Kevin Love), so he just gets to roam around on defense and use his explosiveness to get rebounds. He's a very good garbage man right now, perhaps the greatest in NBA history at such a young age.

Last night aside, I've seen him in multiple games at least trying to deny the low block and stay in front of his man -- he's not a great defender or even a good one (yet) but he's far from the stat hound, all-offense, no-defense player you're trying to paint him out to be.

Fact of the matter is that LMA is playing at such a high level right now that he's making just about everybody who tries to guard him look a little silly.

 

[andalusian]

Last night aside, I've seen him in multiple games at least trying to deny the low block and stay in front of his man -- he's not a great defender or even a good one (yet) but he's far from the stat hound, all-offense, no-defense player you're trying to paint him out to be.

I agree. Griffin does a good job of trying to hold his position, he moves his feet well on defense. He has trouble adjusting to the rotations (to be expected, he is a rookie), he falls too quick for fakes (to be expected, lack of experience), he does not jump to block as well as he should when he needs to - but overall, for a rookie big man - his defense is acceptable and will certainly get better in the future.

Fact of the matter is that LMA is playing at such a high level right now that he's making just about everybody who tries to guard him look a little silly.

Isn't that wonderful?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

By the way, has anyone bothered to check Love/Griffin's "PER against" numbers at 82games.com? Do they actually get worked over by opposing players as much as everyone is suggesting?

According to the stats, Griffin gives up slightly below average numbers to PFs he guards.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10LAC12.HTM#bypos

For Love, the same is true. He allows even less when he plays center.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIN13.HTM#bypos

 

[HailBlazers]

People still take Chuck seriously?!

The way I look at it, Griffin will have many All-Star games to come, just give him the ROY and be done. Love and LMA to the All-Star Game.

 

[Nikolokolus]

People still take Chuck seriously?!

The way I look at it, Griffin will have many All-Star games to come, just give him the ROY and be done. Love and LMA to the All-Star Game.

If it's between those three I think Love is easily the least deserving.

 

[Nikolokolus]

By the way, has anyone bothered to check Love/Griffin's "PER against" numbers at 82games.com? Do they actually get worked over by opposing players as much as everyone is suggesting?

According to the stats, Griffin gives up slightly below average numbers to PFs he guards.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10LAC12.HTM#bypos

For Love, the same is true. He allows even less when he plays center.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIN13.HTM#bypos

That's not good, we've got a meme here going about how shitty these guys are and how undeserving of all-star consideration they are and you're mucking it all up with your "silly" facts.

 

[hasoos]

By the way, has anyone bothered to check Love/Griffin's "PER against" numbers at 82games.com? Do they actually get worked over by opposing players as much as everyone is suggesting?

According to the stats, Griffin gives up slightly below average numbers to PFs he guards.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10LAC12.HTM#bypos

For Love, the same is true. He allows even less when he plays center.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10MIN13.HTM#bypos

Be careful with how you interpret that. As we said last night, Griffin wasn't guarding Aldridge. How many of those stats are merely because they were on the court at the same time? Also, the point being, neither one of them are as good as defender as Aldridge, and isn't that what a lot of this discussion is about? How have they done against Aldridge? Stats only tell part of the story.

 

[hasoos]

IMO the odd guy out is Love. He has no go to moves. He is not a good defender. He gets a ton of rebounds because his team shoots like shit and he has Darko next to him, not Camby for most of the season. Does anybody come into a game and think "Hey you know, we really have to look out for Kevin Love. We have to stop him." Really? Yet I see teams defenses totaly geared to stop Aldridge every night. I haven't seen a team gear their D to stop Love once this year.

 

[andalusian]

Be careful with how you interpret that. As we said last night, Griffin wasn't guarding Aldridge. How many of those stats are merely because they were on the court at the same time? Also, the point being, neither one of them are as good as defender as Aldridge, and isn't that what a lot of this discussion is about? How have they done against Aldridge? Stats only tell part of the story.

That's a good point. You can see that their coaches know that they have problems - and they usually have someone else on the team guarding the main big on the opposing team (like D'Andre Jordan or Beasley/Darko).

If you watch games you see that Love is not a good defender. I mean, we have seen Z-Bo on this team, if you do the same stuff with 82games.com and look at ZBo - you see that his opposing position is not horrible. Of course, when you see the games - it is clear that Gasol is guarding the good guys and they leave the crappy guys for Z-Bo. IF you consider that - and you see that Love and Griffin guard the 2nd big on each team and still make them look like an average NBA starter - it is pretty clear that there is an issue there.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Be careful with how you interpret that. As we said last night, Griffin wasn't guarding Aldridge. How many of those stats are merely because they were on the court at the same time? Also, the point being, neither one of them are as good as defender as Aldridge, and isn't that what a lot of this discussion is about? How have they done against Aldridge? Stats only tell part of the story.

I don't know, it sure looked to me like Griffin took his turns guarding LMA (or at least trying) and he at least made LaMarcus work most of the possessions he was matched up against him.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Be careful with how you interpret that. As we said last night, Griffin wasn't guarding Aldridge. How many of those stats are merely because they were on the court at the same time? Also, the point being, neither one of them are as good as defender as Aldridge, and isn't that what a lot of this discussion is about? How have they done against Aldridge? Stats only tell part of the story.

True, they only tell part of the story, but they shouldn't be completely ignored. I'm certainly not claiming that either are comparable to Aldridge defensively, but if Love and Griffin are as terrible as many would have me believe, why is it that the stats don't indicate that at all? At the very least, shouldn't their opponents be putting up at least average numbers?

 

[oldmangrouch]

Both are also probably the worst defending PFs in the NBA, though.

While LMA was defending Griffin during the game, Griffin got to coast while 'defending' Przy after he had to be pulled off of LMA.

Love was so embarrassed on defense by LMA TWICE that he looked like he might cry.

Stats are fun in fantasy basketball, but coaches are paid to win, and defense helps win games.

I get what you are saying about Love - but I think you are off base of Griffin. For a guy who has only played half a season's worth of NBA games, his defense is where you would expect it to be. Now, if he follows Love's path and doesn't get better with experience, then you have a good point.

 

[hasoos]

True, they only tell part of the story, but they shouldn't be completely ignored. I'm certainly not claiming that either are comparable to Aldridge defensively, but if Love and Griffin are as terrible as many would have me believe, why is it that the stats don't indicate that at all? At the very least, shouldn't their opponents be putting up at least average numbers?

No. And here is one reason why. Do you have any idea of how many games the Timberwolves get the total shit kicked out of them and the opposing power forward isn't even in the game the last quarter to play against them? The same for the Clippers. They started 1 and 12.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

That's a good point. You can see that their coaches know that they have problems - and they usually have someone else on the team guarding the main big on the opposing team (like D'Andre Jordan or Beasley/Darko).

If you watch games you see that Love is not a good defender. I mean, we have seen Z-Bo on this team, if you do the same stuff with 82games.com and look at ZBo - you see that his opposing position is not horrible. Of course, when you see the games - it is clear that Gasol is guarding the good guys and they leave the crappy guys for Z-Bo. IF you consider that - and you see that Love and Griffin guard the 2nd big on each team and still make them look like an average NBA starter - it is pretty clear that there is an issue there.

By that logic--that they're guarding centers while their centers guard their PFs--then it would stand to reason that the centers alongside whom they play (Deandre Jordan and Darko Milicic) would have some artificially inflated PER against figures. However, that's not the case either. Centers playing against both Jordan and Milicic put up PERs less than 14.

Regardless of who Love and Griffin are guarding, they are still guarding NBA players, and those players are putting up average numbers. However much worse than Aldridge's it might be, it's still not so bad that they're being routinely victimized by their opponents.

 

[illmatic99]

It's not just Chuck who thinks this: http://www.nba.com/POLLSERVER/results/54676.html

 

[PtldPlatypus]

No. And here is one reason why. Do you have any idea of how many games the Timberwolves get the total shit kicked out of them and the opposing power forward isn't even in the game the last quarter to play against them? The same for the Clippers. They started 1 and 12.

So, 1 quarter of defense against nobodies during garbage time negates three quarters of being dominated by the opponent (and presumably the opponent's bigs)? Sorry, I'm not buying that one.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I have watched a lot of Clipers games this year living in LA and Blake is incredible for a rookie. He is going to be awesome. But right now he is not better than LMA. He and Love's numbers are great. But so were ZBO's all those years he didn't make it.