CJ and Dame: a dynamic duo?

[Minstrel]

They are a dynamic tandem, they're simply too small defensively. Even offensively, neither is an elite off-the-ball player. Both can, obviously, hit a catch-and-shoot jumper, but neither is comfortable or practiced in working to create separation and havoc away from the ball. They're both best with the ball in their hands. So while they combine for a lot of talent, they're not supremely efficient in terms of how their offensive skillsets fit together and neither has the size or strength to provide solid or better defense against opposing two guards. Having two small defense-deficient guards is tough in a wing league.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

They are a dynamic tandem, but the best types of tandems involve a small and a big.

 

[Hoopguru]

They are a dynamic tandem, but the best types of tandems involve a small and a big.

classic example KT&SC

 

[Hoopguru]

Another small starting back court is Smart 6'3" & Walker 6'. Smart is a good defender though.

 

[TBpup]

So is Utah with 2 6'1 starting guards.

Better defenders there than what we have. Wish it weren't so.

 

[blazerkor]

Another small starting back court is Smart 6'3" & Walker 6'. Smart is a good defender though.

My thing is that the question, "Does the Dame/CJ experiment work?" isn't an unanswered one. It just doesn't work I can speculate that it's because they are both small, bad defense, ball dominant, score first guards but I might be wrong about that. That being said our record shows that it doesn't matter why... it just doesn't work. I think the biggest reason it doesn't work like these other back courts you're naming is because Dame and CJ aren't just our back court they're half of our payroll and our two leading guys in minutes played and our one and two options. Whatever the formula is, what results is us not contending.

If your mindset is that Stotts is the thing that makes the Dame/CJ one two punch not potent enough to get us to the finals, I disagree but at least that's a logical possibility.

 

[bobf]

ok, and I was wondering if you were confining it to guards

it's interesting if you look at that list, and then add the two pairs mentioned I forgot, Tatum/Brown & Embiid/Simmons; and then add Dame/CJ. Out of 13 tandems only two of them are guard pairs. And only 5 of the 26 players are 6'3 and under and two of those are Portland's pair, who also happen to be a couple of the worst defenders. A lot of red flags waving

Dame and CJ have the most duplication of value of any two on the list. They have the most similar games and the same deficiencies. CJ is (or has been) just not as good as most of those players.

Ideally you have one player who breaks down the defense & creates while the second player rounds out the tandem providing strong defense & rim protection while still being second scoring threat. So Lebron AD are the most perfect fit IMO. Dame and Embid or Giannis would be great tandems. If / when Nurk is playing well he’s a lot more valuable than CJ.

 

[Hoopguru]

Better defenders there than what we have. Wish it weren't so.

Would you rather have Mitchell and Conley on the Blazers than Dame & CJ? Cant change the mix. I wouldnt.

 

[e_blazer]

My thing is that the question, "Does the Dame/CJ experiment work?" isn't an unanswered one. It just doesn't work I can speculate that it's because they are both small, bad defense, ball dominant, score first guards but I might be wrong about that. That being said our record shows that it doesn't matter why... it just doesn't work. I think the biggest reason it doesn't work like these other back courts you're naming is because Dame and CJ aren't just our back court they're half of our payroll and our two leading guys in minutes played and our one and two options. Whatever the formula is, what results is us not contending.

If your mindset is that Stotts is the thing that makes the Dame/CJ one two punch not potent enough to get us to the finals, I disagree but at least that's a logical possibility.

Did Dame and GT Jr. work any better? I'd say no. While Gary is bigger and a good offensive player, at least from the perimeter, overall he offense wasn't quite as good as with CJ and the defense wasn't any better. I don't think that CJ being paired with Dame is the issue from a player standpoint, but I think you may be correct that having as much money tied up in CJ is a big problem from a roster construction standpoint. I'd say that Dame being paired with a $12M backcourt mate and having a $28M PF or SF is a better contender than having $60-$70M tied up in the backcourt and only $10-12M each to spend on the forward positions.

 

[wizenheimer]

Another small starting back court is Smart 6'3" & Walker 6'. Smart is a good defender though.

not the same thing....apples and oranges. Those two are options 3 & 4 on the Celts:



and, Smart has been named to the first team, all-defense two years in a row and will likely make it 3 years in a row this season. Walker is probably a better defender then either Blazer guard as well

besides all that, and just as important, the two Celtic guards make 50M/year compared to Dame CJ at 80M/year. Perhaps even more importantly, in terms of team flexibility, is that after this season, the Boston guards are owed 90M; Dame/CJ are owed 300M

like I said....apples to oranges, especially in the context of this thread

Would you rather have Mitchell and Conley on the Blazers than Dame & CJ? Cant change the mix. I wouldnt.

I'd rather have Dame & Mitchell, then trade Mitchell to make a better starting unit & roster. Mitchell has a lot more value than CJ

I think this problem would likely solve itself if Jody Allen traded Olshey for another GM

 

[tester551]

Did Dame and GT Jr. work any better? I'd say no. While Gary is bigger and a good offensive player, at least from the perimeter, overall he offense wasn't quite as good as with CJ and the defense wasn't any better. I don't think that CJ being paired with Dame is the issue from a player standpoint, but I think you may be correct that having as much money tied up in CJ is a big problem from a roster construction standpoint. I'd say that Dame being paired with a $12M backcourt mate and having a $28M PF or SF is a better contender than having $60-$70M tied up in the backcourt and only $10-12M each to spend on the forward positions.

Agreed that it wasn't any better... but I'd also say that it wasn't significantly worse either.

 

[Hoopguru]

not the same thing....apples and oranges. Those two are options 3 & 4 on the Celts:

View attachment 37700

and, Smart has been named to the first team, all-defense two years in a row and will likely make it 3 years in a row this season. Walker is probably a better defender then either Blazer guard as well

besides all that, and just as important, the two Celtic guards make 50M/year compared to Dame CJ at 80M/year. Perhaps even more importantly, in terms of team flexibility, is that after this season, the Boston guards are owed 90M; Dame/CJ are owed 300M

like I said....apples to oranges, especially in the context of this thread



I'd rather have Dame & Mitchell, then trade Mitchell to make a better starting unit & roster. Mitchell has a lot more value than CJ

I think this problem would likely solve itself if Jody Allen traded Olshey for another GM

I said Smart was a good defender. My point is you can have a small backcourt if one or both a decent defenders.
I wouldnt swap Dame & CJ now for Mitchell & Conley. Thats was the question without changing the mix. So would you rather have Dame & CJ than Mitchell and Conley. Its ok to answer yes or no. Come on step out answer the question.

 

[wizenheimer]

I said Smart was a good defender. My point is you can have a small backcourt if one or both a decent defenders.
I wouldnt swap Dame & CJ now for Mitchell & Conley. Thats was the question without changing the mix. So would you rather have Dame & CJ than Mitchell and Conley. Its ok to answer yes or no. Come on step out answer the question.

if I want to stop giving CJ the cover Dame provides and decouple him from Dame instead, I will

did you say where you think Dame/CJ rank among NBA tandems?

 

[e_blazer]

Agreed that it wasn't any better... but I'd also say that it wasn't significantly worse either.

I'd say that it was worse, but probably only because the backup PG minutes went to Ant instead of CJ. I think my overall take is that the Blazers would likely be significantly better if they could re-sign GT Jr. for around $12M, sign a reasonably priced backup PG, move Ant to backup SG, and trade CJ for a stud SF or PF.

 

[wizenheimer]

I'd say that it was worse, but probably only because the backup PG minutes went to Ant instead of CJ. I think my overall take is that the Blazers would likely be significantly better if they could re-sign GT Jr. for around $12M, sign a reasonably priced backup PG, move Ant to backup SG, and trade CJ for a stud SF or PF.

that at least makes more sense as a course alteration than staying locked on the path of Olshey's stubborn desire to weld Dame and CJ together come hell or high water

I'm not sure it can be a one-step process of trading CJ for an immediate upgrade at one of the forward positions. Maybe, but the first step is to step off the chugging train where CJ is co-conductor. There are plenty of ideas out there for CJ trades but I don't know how much real interest there is in CJ from other teams

no realistic trade idea will go without intense challend here....I mean, 7 people apparently believe Dame/CJ are better than Lebron/AD and Harden/Durant

 

[Hoopguru]

if I want to stop giving CJ the cover Dame provides and decouple him from Dame instead, I will

did you say where you think Dame/CJ rank among NBA tandems?

Guard tandems right now 1.
Im just pulling your chain...

 

[wizenheimer]

Guard tandems right now 1.
Im just pulling your chain...

I know...I'm tugging back

rabbit-holes-r-us

 

[Hoopguru]

if I want to stop giving CJ the cover Dame provides and decouple him from Dame instead, I will

did you say where you think Dame/CJ rank among NBA tandems?

I think you are correct that Dame has been the one covering for CJ. Helped him get that huge contract put their mothers in business (they are tight) and are marketeers in in PTown. And Damn good round ball players. There is a reason their contracts expire near the same time.

 

[blazerkor]

Did Dame and GT Jr. work any better? I'd say no. While Gary is bigger and a good offensive player, at least from the perimeter, overall he offense wasn't quite as good as with CJ and the defense wasn't any better. I don't think that CJ being paired with Dame is the issue from a player standpoint, but I think you may be correct that having as much money tied up in CJ is a big problem from a roster construction standpoint. I'd say that Dame being paired with a $12M backcourt mate and having a $28M PF or SF is a better contender than having $60-$70M tied up in the backcourt and only $10-12M each to spend on the forward positions.

Dame and Gary represent a back court that would be comprised of a number 1 player and number 4 or 5 player on a roster. CJ is worth 30M in wins to a lot of teams in this league but he isn't to this team. Gary didn't work any better with Dame than CJ but did he work worse enough to justify CJ getting paid what he's paid? The answer to that is no and we don't even know how good Gary would have looked with Dame and Nurk along with the other guys. Would we have even seen a drop off at all if Nurk would have been in? I honestly don't know and that is scary. I don't know if we are noticeably better off with a guy playing, that's making 30M.

I completely agree that the 30M should go to another position... I'm thinking more of a 4 or 5 but I have been stuck in Stoffense for nine seasons so I think I see things through some kind of Terry filter.