CJ "Hating"

[Tince]

I think most people would be fine with it if he showed that he's actually worth that contract.

So then it comes down to him not being good enough to warrant his contract, which just goes back to his play.

My point is that he is as good or better today than he was when he was offered his contract. So hating CJ because he was offered a contract above his value would be placing blame at the wrong person. It would be one thing if he was an All-NBA player who was giving his contract and then started to dog it after, but I don't see this as being one of those situations.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I get pretty frustrated with his selfish black hole style play. He doesn't pass, despite playing backup point guard for us. He's a pretty massive liability when he isn't hitting his shots.

I definitely have these concerns, too. However, overall I would say that I am both a

CJ Fan
and a
CJ Contract Hater

Dunno, if that makes me a hater in whoever's eyes, but that's how I feel. He's ALMOST a bad contract, and the reason his trade value isn't much higher.

 

[James lamphear]

99% of the league is "miles behind Dame on offense". But C.J. has shown that he can play at an extremely high-level with Dame out, so to say C.J. isn't close to being a top-level lead guard is false, IMO.

CJ's "selfishness" gets extremely overblown in my eyes. C.J. happily defers to Dame when he has it going, and I'm baffled as to how a guy who people say "never passes" can average 4.4apg over the course of a season.

I also don't see how CJ and Dame are a horrible fit for offensive reasons, when they can be paired with 3 average-to-below-average offensive players and still be one of the most productive offensive lineups in the league. The only reason this offense works is because we have two elite iso-scorers, not in spite of it. "No cohesive flow" isn't because of the Dame and C.J. pairing... Stotts' offense is designed to have players create off the dribble from the perimeter, whether it's through pick n roll, isolation, or catch-and-go...

Think about the flares that C.J. runs off of... once C.J. catches the ball, the play is basically dead, no one is moving, and he's supposed to make something happen off the dribble. Then when C.J. tries to make something happen, you have a ton of people bitching about him trying to make something happen off the dribble... Basically, I think you're mistakenly blaming the backcourt pairing for the lack of "cohesive flow". Our ball-movement isn't any better without C.J. in the game, yet C.J. gets blamed for it.

People underrate having a 2nd guy that can handle the ball, make plays, and initiate offense. Dame's job gets MUCH more difficult on the offensive end with a Gary Trent Jr. at the 2 in place of C.J.

His defense is bad, but bad guard defense can be covered by a solid backline while bad forward/center defense can't, and good offensive guards can generally have more control of the offense than good offensive bigs. So having a poor defensive guard who's really good offensively mixed with an average defensive guard and 3 really good defenders in the frontcourt is completely fine. That type of combination gives you a chance at having a top 10 defense and a top 5 offense.

Your right he very good offense player and below average defender. My opinion if your not 2 way player your not worth over 30 million dollars a year.

 

[Hoopguru]

With so many wings now at 6'6" and a couple that play tough D, I think you could see CJ playing ,more with the second unit, if indeed we have a lock down defender that can guard a larger dominate 2.
Can CJ match up against D Mitchell, yes, can he match up against J Butler or D Booker, not really. This is where Id like to see DJJ, Hood or Trent match up and I think this year we will.

 

[James lamphear]

I don't hate CJ I believe he is over paid for being one deminisonal with his game. Yes most 2 guard are scorers on defense but also should be one your best defenders too. When CJ plays when Dame is out he probably plays his best offense game with points and assist due he has to relie on the other players to help on offense. The same with Dame when CJ and Nurk went down at the end of the season couple years was the best I seen him play due to he had rely on other players to help him. It was more team basketball on the offense end in those 2 situation. But this offense that Stotts has is guard oriented offense with the guards read what the defense does against them and at times it prevents other players to get involved in the offense through out the game.

 

[Scalma]

In all seriousness, this season will be a good test for stotts, health permitting (LOL)

What I mean is if CJ is having an off night, there really is no need to keep him out on the court, not with Hood and Trent around. Let’s see if Stotts actually has the balls to bench CJ when he’s struggling. I’ve yet to see him do it, so I have my doubts.

 

[Big Dog]

In all seriousness, this season will be a good test for stotts, health permitting (LOL)

What I mean is if CJ is having an off night, there really is no need to keep him out on the court, not with Hood and Trent around. Let’s see if Stotts actually has the balls to bench CJ when he’s struggling. I’ve yet to see him do it, so I have my doubts.

Well, if Dame is having an off night would you want him to be benched as well? Can't have double standards can we? CJ has proven to be able to run the point guard position adequately. Problem with that methodology is prolific scorers like McCollum and Lillard can go o-7 and then run off 20 points in a flash. Benching them would eliminate that opportunity wouldn't it?

 

[kjironman1]

He literally just acquired specific players to push Stotts and went as far as publically calling on him to improve. He's setting this year up to he a make or break year for Stotts.

I sure hope so. Stotts has had enough time to get this team going. Now on the other side of that. I happen to believe with these pieces in place he can and will do very well.
It's what we all want. We want the Blazers to succeed but if Stotts fails to get this group to mesh and playing well by the playoffs he probably will feel the heat. Rightfully so.

 

[wizenheimer]

CJ isn't as good on offense as some of his fans claim. He's a clever ball-handler who pounds the ball too much but only generates average overall efficiency. His TS% is right about at the NBA median. He was only in the 56th percentile in isolation possessions (Dame is 87th percentile; Simons & Hezonja were 80th percentile). That was 13.3% of his offense. 36% of his offense was as PnR ball-handler and he was only in the 71st percentile (Dame is 95th percentile). For comparison on the team, Trent was 67th percentile and Ariza was 74th percentile.

those two types of possessions account for 50% of CJ's offense and he's only around the 66th percentile combined. That's above average but 1/3 of the league is better. Then you have to add 14.5% of CJ's possessions resulting in transition, and he's below average in the 45th percentile. That's now close to 2/3rds of his possessions and he's somewhere around 60th-62nd percentile

On the other hand, CJ is in the 83rd percentile in spot-up possessions. And of players who averaged 25 minutes or more, CJ was 7th in the league in catch-and-shoot eFG%.

essentially, that all means that when CJ's offense comes off his own dribble, it's mediocre. He only generates average efficiency, at best, in one-on-one. But when the team ball and player movement generates CJ's offense, he's bordering on elite. He dribbles the ball too damn much. By a lot. And perhaps his biggest issue, personally, on offense is that he's pathetic at getting to the FT line. Last year's .136 FT rate was terrible, and the worst of his career. CJ's assisted FG rate was 36% when it should have been in the 60-70% range. His usage and touch level are ok, but his dribble-frequency and touch-time should be cut by more than half

this isn't really CJ's fault as much as it is Stotts and Olshey. Stotts should have long ago made CJ accountable for his efficiency/usage imbalance. There should be a lot more plays maximizing CJ's spot-up and catch-and-shoot abilities, and a lot fewer plays where CJ pounds the ball to death. But Stotts is also limited in what he can do because of Olshey's stubborn refusal to add players to the roster that can initiate offense. That's created the void that allows CJ to be a ball-hog.

 

[Scalma]

Well, if Dame is having an off night would you want him to be benched as well? Can't have double standards can we? CJ has proven to be able to run the point guard position adequately. Problem with that methodology is prolific scorers like McCollum and Lillard can go o-7 and then run off 20 points in a flash. Benching them would eliminate that opportunity wouldn't it?

not while dame has been available he hasn’t. Only time he’s played point guard like a point guard should has been when Dames been out.

And off nights for Dame are rare, so not really worth thinking about.

 

[BlayZa]

tbh i think we see the best of each when the other isnt on the floor

they are, imo, definitely not more than the sum of their parts when combined on the floor at the same time.

 

[Further]

Not so sure I agree with that comp.
I have never felt like Seth stopped the ball. He either took the immediate C&S or passed the ball.

Not saying they play alike, just that curry will be on the 6ers this year just to do what CJ does much better. CJ is such a prolific scoring threat that he will have to be picked up early, allowing more freedom of movemdd we not for Simmons and embiid. And if they don’t collapse on CJ, he would routinely make them pay.

 

[PCmor7]

With so many wings now at 6'6" and a couple that play tough D, I think you could see CJ playing ,more with the second unit, if indeed we have a lock down defender that can guard a larger dominate 2.
Can CJ match up against D Mitchell, yes, can he match up against J Butler or D Booker, not really. This is where Id like to see DJJ, Hood or Trent match up and I think this year we will.

How many 2-guards are matching up with Jimmy Butler and Devin Booker, though? Those guys routinely torch defenders regardless of size because they are just great players.

 

[e_blazer]

Yes most 2 guard are scorers on defense but also should be one your best defenders too.

That triggered me into wanting to take a look at the relative defensive prowess of starting 2 guards for teams that will likely make the playoffs this year. A few caveats: in the East I went with Boston, New Jersey, Philly, Indiana, Toronto, Milwaukee, Atlanta, and Miami. In the West, I went with LAL, LAC, Blazers, Nuggets, Jazz, Warriors, Mavericks, and Suns. There are undoubtedly a few other teams that could make the playoffs, but this list is good enough for these purposes. As a measure of defense, I used career DRtg. As far as position and player selected, I used ESPN's depth chart designation for starting 2G. With that, here's the list, broken into The Good (100-105 DRtg), The Bad (106-110 DRtg) [okay, average, not bad but Clint Eastwood says work with me here], and The Ugly (111 plus):

The Good (100-105 DRtg)
Bucks - Donte DiVincenzo - 102
LAC - Paul George - 102 (Note: tailed off to 106 the past few seasons).
76ers - Danny Green - 103
Nets - Caris LeVert - 104

The Bad (106- 110 DRtg)
Celtics - Marcus Smart - 106
Pacers - Victor Oladipo - 106
Raptors - Fred VanVleet - 107
Jazz - Donovan Mitchell - 108
Lakers - Dennis Schroeder - 109

The Ugly ( 111 plus DRtg)
Nuggets - Gary Harris - 112
Blazers - CJ McCollum - 112
Mavericks - Tim Hardaway Jr - 113
Heat - Duncan Robinson - 113
Warriors - Andrew Wiggins - 113
Suns - Devin Booker - 115
Hawks - Kevin Huerter - 116

So, by my probably poor analysis of prospective playoff teams, only about four starting 2Gs are good on defense, another 5 are average, and 7 (including CJ) suck.

 

[Natebishop3]

I was going to do some research.... but you have to pay to use basketball reference now?

 

[Big Dog]

not while dame has been available he hasn’t. Only time he’s played point guard like a point guard should has been when Dames been out.

And off nights for Dame are rare, so not really worth thinking about.

Actually CJ plays point every game as Dame's back up and even at times when they are both on the floor.

 

[PCmor7]

I was going to do some research.... but you have to pay to use basketball reference now?

It's going to CJ's cap fund.

 

[Scalma]

Actually CJ plays point every game as Dame's back up and even at times when they are both on the floor.

I didn’t say he didn’t. He’s not any good at it though. Portland’s bench last season ranked last in both points and assists.

 

[PCmor7]

I didn’t say he didn’t. He’s not any good at it though. Portland’s bench last season ranked last in both points and assists.

You need guys who can make shots or finish to get assists, though. Mario and Wenyen aren't exactly consistent scorers.

 

[wizenheimer]

I was going to do some research.... but you have to pay to use basketball reference now?

yep

you can use it a little, but the full access to stats is behind a pay wall now

 

[Scalma]

You need guys who can make shots or finish to get assists, though. Mario and Wenyen aren't exactly consistent scorers.

mario and wenyen weren’t even consistent members of the rotation. The bench has been an issue for years and the only constant on that unit has been CJ.

 

[Big Dog]

mario and wenyen weren’t even consistent members of the rotation. The bench has been an issue for years and the only constant on that unit has been CJ.

So are you saying lack of production at the pg back up spot has more to do with CJ than an anemic bench? If so, that's wonkers.

 

[Natebishop3]

yep

you can use it a little, but the full access to stats is behind a pay wall now

Fuck that. I don't use that site enough to warrant a paid sub. They can eat a bag of dicks.

 

[Scalma]

So are you saying lack of production at the pg back up spot has more to do with CJ than an anemic bench? If so, that's wonkers.

Excuses. Last year the most used lineup that didn’t include Dame was CJ, Trent, Melo, Ariza, and Whiteside. They were a -3.6 in point differential. Those are three starters and Trent, who was our best bench player.

At this point Olsheys ego is driving the resistance to add a real backup point guard. It’s ridiculous.

 

[kjironman1]

Fuck that. I don't use that site enough to warrant a paid sub. They can eat a bag of dicks.

I really never dig that deep anymore so I never realized they started charging?

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

CJ isn't as good on offense as some of his fans claim. He's a clever ball-handler who pounds the ball too much but only generates average overall efficiency. His TS% is right about at the NBA median. He was only in the 56th percentile in isolation possessions (Dame is 87th percentile; Simons & Hezonja were 80th percentile). That was 13.3% of his offense. 36% of his offense was as PnR ball-handler and he was only in the 71st percentile (Dame is 95th percentile). For comparison on the team, Trent was 67th percentile and Ariza was 74th percentile.

those two types of possessions account for 50% of CJ's offense and he's only around the 66th percentile combined. That's above average but 1/3 of the league is better. Then you have to add 14.5% of CJ's possessions resulting in transition, and he's below average in the 45th percentile. That's now close to 2/3rds of his possessions and he's somewhere around 60th-62nd percentile

On the other hand, CJ is in the 83rd percentile in spot-up possessions. And of players who averaged 25 minutes or more, CJ was 7th in the league in catch-and-shoot eFG%.

essentially, that all means that when CJ's offense comes off his own dribble, it's mediocre. He only generates average efficiency, at best, in one-on-one. But when the team ball and player movement generates CJ's offense, he's bordering on elite. He dribbles the ball too damn much. By a lot. And perhaps his biggest issue, personally, on offense is that he's pathetic at getting to the FT line. Last year's .136 FT rate was terrible, and the worst of his career. CJ's assisted FG rate was 36% when it should have been in the 60-70% range. His usage and touch level are ok, but his dribble-frequency and touch-time should be cut by more than half

this isn't really CJ's fault as much as it is Stotts and Olshey. Stotts should have long ago made CJ accountable for his efficiency/usage imbalance. There should be a lot more plays maximizing CJ's spot-up and catch-and-shoot abilities, and a lot fewer plays where CJ pounds the ball to death. But Stotts is also limited in what he can do because of Olshey's stubborn refusal to add players to the roster that can initiate offense. That's created the void that allows CJ to be a ball-hog.

That's some really well stated "hating".

 

[PCmor7]

mario and wenyen weren’t even consistent members of the rotation. The bench has been an issue for years and the only constant on that unit has been CJ.

So then who are these guys off the bench who are supposed to be maximizing CJ's potential as a playmaker?

 

[Scalma]

So then who are these guys off the bench who are supposed to be maximizing CJ's potential as a playmaker?

like I said above, the most used lineup CJ played without dame included three starters and Trent.

 

[blazerkor]

It's curious to me how discussing a player's pros but also bringing up the cons, constitutes 'hating'.

Honestly that's why hating is in quotes. Whether a poster refers to criticism as "hate" or "bashing" I wanted people to be able to discuss why most of them had no malice for CJ but just honest critiques for how he plays or fits in on this team... along with the fact that there are some really great things about his game and even better things about the way he conducts himself off the floor. Most of the people in here that get labeled as haters have shown that they are definitely mislabeled, a few have shown that they don't really have anything positive to say about CJ. As for those that label others as hating or bashing... they stayed pretty consistent which I find unfortunate. I also hope that this thread isn't a season long thing but people will and should do with it as they please. I would hope that it would be a place for people to voice their opinions about CJ being on the team, come to accept the fact that he is on the team and then support him as part of the team.

 

[e_blazer]

Honestly that's why hating is in quotes. Whether a poster refers to criticism as "hate" or "bashing" I wanted people to be able to discuss why most of them had no malice for CJ but just honest critiques for how he plays or fits in on this team... along with the fact that there are some really great things about his game and even better things about the way he conducts himself off the floor. Most of the people in here that get labeled as haters have shown that they are definitely mislabeled, a few have shown that they don't really have anything positive to say about CJ. As for those that label others as hating or bashing... they stayed pretty consistent which I find unfortunate. I also hope that this thread isn't a season long thing but people will and should do with it as they please. I would hope that it would be a place for people to voice their opinions about CJ being on the team, come to accept the fact that he is on the team and then support him as part of the team.

I don’t really think we need to keep a thread like this going all season. Does anyone really not get it after all of the years that people have been commenting on the Dame/CJ backcourt? It’s either you want him traded for a better fitting star player or you like his offense enough to overlook defensive lapses and ball-stopping tendencies. Since none of us have any input on roster changes, it seems to me to be a pretty futile discussion, but hey, that’s pretty much the overall description of RipCity2.