CJ off the second unit

[Natebishop3]

According to this:
https://www.nba.com/blazers/forwardcenter/podcast-rip-city-report-episode-144

I was afraid of this: Turner is going to be given all the minutes that should go to Baldwin, and as you can't play two non-shooters, Stauskas is going to get minutes and Baldwin is going to get a bunch of DNPs.

Also, sounds like Collins is looking disappointing. That should make Olshey nervous, given that he was picked over Mitchell.

Might be a good time to trade him. Maybe not Butler, but someone like Middleton?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Might be a good time to trade him. Maybe not Butler, but someone like Middleton?

Trade Turner yes!!!!! lol

 

[Scalma]

The only time Ive actually seen a pro coach try it was Pops (besides end of games scenarios). He didnt try it for a long time, but I remember a couple years ago he kind of experimented with it.

I remember in 08 Portland had a pretty deep rotation. Not sure it was 5 off 5 on at the same time but i remember Oden and Joel were splitting time at center, while Outlaw, Rudy, Sergio, Frye, and Bayless all saw minutes as well.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

God this is a terrible podcast. Two people with zero personality and totally vanilla takes.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I don't want to see poitn guard turner. That's just ugly.

I'd rather have Baldwin

Is Gillooly available?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Hockey substitutions. No one really does anything like that in the NBA on a regular basis. Pops does in once in a while, yanks all 5 starters to send them a message, but even he doesn't do it on a nightly basis.

BNM

We discussed this before.

Right. That's a 10 man rotation. There's also fatigue, injuries, and foul trouble that comes into play with the rotation.

Im not sayign dont play 12 people, but I dont get your premis that this would cause fatigue and injuries when some teams have less of a rotation. 8-9 man. How does playing a few less minutes create fatigue and injuries?

Those kind of mass substitutions usually stop at the youth level.

Hey, they are all youth compared to you and I!!!

 

[Natebishop3]

God this is a terrible podcast. Two people with zero personality and totally vanilla takes.

There's nothing special about Casey. He just happened to be in the right place at the right time to get that job.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I get that my thread was merged, but one thing I mentioned in the title has not been mentioned in this thread: supposedly Swanigan has looked surprisingly good (and Collins not).

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I get that my thread was merged, but one thing I mentioned in the title has not been mentioned in this thread: supposedly Swanigan has looked surprisingly good (and Collins not).

Ive heard and read all about how much stronger Zach looks this year, Id like to say i think he looks a little bigger but he still seems really skinny to me.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Im not sayign dont play 12 people, but I dont get your premis that this would cause fatigue and injuries when some teams have less of a rotation. 8-9 man. How does playing a few less minutes create fatigue and injuries?

That's not what he's saying - the opposite actually.

What are the odds that all 10 of your players in your two 5-man units will always be healthy? What are the odds that none of the starters will get into foul trouble and have to play fewer minutes than the other 4 on any given night? What are the odds that all five of your starters will experience fatigue at the same rate? The odds of all of those things happening each and every night are almost zero. Therefore it makes little sense to have two five man units that enter and exit the game at exactly the same time.

And that ignores the assumption that you will have back up players at all five positions that are worthy of significant/equal minutes.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

That's not what he's saying - the opposite actually.

What are the odds that all 10 of your players in your two 5-man units will always be healthy? What are the odds that none of the starters will get into foul trouble and have to play fewer minutes than the other 4 on any given night? What are the odds that all five of your starters will experience fatigue at the same rate? The odds of all of those things happening each and every night are almost zero. Therefore it makes little sense to have two five man units that enter and exit the game at exactly the same time.

And that ignores the assumption that you will have back up players at all five positions that are worthy of significant/equal minutes.

BNM

Well of course there are asterisks. Someone gets injured, someone else has to step in. Same with foul trouble.

Im simply saying without any situational circumstances, Id like to see all five starters sit at once.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Well of course there are asterisks. Someone gets injured, someone else has to step in. Same with foul trouble.

Im simply saying without any situational circumstances, Id like to see all five starters sit at once.

Why? What's the advantage? It's highly impractical. If there was some advantage to it, someone with a deeper bench would already be doing it.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

Why? What's the advantage? It's highly impractical. If there was some advantage to it, someone with a deeper bench would already be doing it.

BNM

Cohesion of the unit. Maximize their ability to know every little thing about the other four they are on the floor with. Constant substitutions make them think more before they can react. Not saying that the first unit wont know the second unit, but no one can deny that you get to know the players next to you best when you are on the court with them.

Id like to see it and see how it works. If nobody has tried it then how do we know it doesn't work?

 

[Scalma]

https://www.nbcsports.com/northwest...win-im-best-candidate-backup-point-guard-role

Great article on Baldwin, but this stood out. This could be huge.

——
The rap on Baldwin has always been his shooting and he says he’s solved a problem by reconstructing his shooting form from his college days.

“The changes I made my rookie year, I had an entirely new shooting form that was kind of built into me forcefully,” Baldwin said. “I think now I’m bringing my own swagger and my own confidence back into my jump shot.

“When I got with Memphis they hired a shooting coach and I was a guy in college who was a top five three-point shooter in my league and shot 43 percent in college and got to the NBA and they changed my entire form for the entire year.

“When I got out of that situation in Memphis I got back to the way I shot. I think I showed that in summer league and last year and into this year.”
——-

If he can shoot anything close to how he shot in college there could be room for him with Turner.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Cohesion of the unit. Maximize their ability to know every little thing about the other four they are on the floor with. Constant substitutions make them think more before they can react. Not saying that the first unit wont know the second unit, but no one can deny that you get to know the players next to you best when you are on the court with them.

Id like to see it and see how it works. If nobody has tried it then how do we know it doesn't work?

People have tried it - at lower levels and in the ancient past. It's not a new concept, it's actually a very old, antiquated one.

The problem is, due to all the concerns mentioned, plus situational substitutions, etc. It's simply not practical to do such en masse substitutions on a regular basis, and if you can't do it on a regular basis, aren't you disrupting the familiarity you are trying to breed?

Besides, I WANT the key bench guys to be familiar with playing with the starters more than I want them to be familiar with playing with each other. I want Zach Collins to know what it's like to play with Dame and C.J. in case Nurk is in foul trouble/fouls out in the 4th quarter of a must win game. I want Seth Curry to know what it's like to play with both Dame and C.J. in case one of them gets injured and he is thrust into the starting line up. I want Gary Trent Jr. to know what it's like to play with the starters, because it's good for his growth as a player and by the end of the year he may be called on late in close games for his 3-point shooting and I want him top be familiar with Dame and C.J. and them to be familiar with him.

I think these are all more important that trotting out wholesale substitutions at the 9 minute mark of the 1st quarter.

Besides, this is basketball. There are only 5 players on the court at a time. It's almost always to your advantage to have at least one, or two, of your five best players on the court at all times. Especially, because you're opponents will.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

People have tried it - at lower levels and in the ancient past. It's not a new concept, it's actually a very old, antiquated one.

The problem is, due to all the concerns mentioned, plus situational substitutions, etc. It's simply not practical to do such en masse substitutions on a regular basis, and if you can't do it on a regular basis, aren't you disrupting the familiarity you are trying to breed?

Besides, I WANT the key bench guys to be familiar with playing with the starters more than I want them to be familiar with playing with each other. I want Zach Collins to know what it's like to play with Dame and C.J. in case Nurk is in foul trouble/fouls out in the 4th quarter of a must win game. I want Seth Curry to know what it's like to play with both Dame and C.J. in case one of them gets injured and he is thrust into the starting line up. I want Gary Trent Jr. to know what it's like to play with the starters, because it's good for his growth as a player and by the end of the year he may be called on late in close games for his 3-point shooting and I want him top be familiar with Dame and C.J. and them to be familiar with him.

I think these are all more important that trotting out wholesale substitutions at the 9 minute mark of the 1st quarter.

Besides, this is basketball. There are only 5 players on the court at a time. It's almost always to your advantage to have at least one, or two, of your five best players on the court at all times. Especially, because you're opponents will.

BNM

I highlighted what I thought were valid points.

aren't we just a farm team for the league anyhow? What will the experiment hurt? lol.

 

[BBert]

I think it’s two things

1. Commitment to Turner as backup point. Surround him with shooters and put him the best possible situation to succeed. Baldwin is the odd man out unless Turner gets hurt or they want to go super defensive.

2. Curry does a lot of the same things CJ does. Maybe not as well, but there’s no play they run for CJ that they couldn’t also run for Curry. We didn’t have that the last few years.

I don't have stats to back this up, and I'm fairly certain you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but Evan Turnover is a Turner machine when he's setting up the offense.

Or something like that.

 

[BBert]

I don't want to see poitn guard turner. That's just ugly.

I'd rather have Baldwin

Cosign

 

[BBert]

Might be a good time to trade him. Maybe not Butler, but someone like Middleton?

It's always a good time to trade Evan Turnover

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Of course some of these guys stand out. We are weak defensively so it’s easy to look good on offense going against our own D.

My God.

I say one thing that could actually be taken seriously after years of nothing but sarcastic and tongue-in-cheek posts.... y’all bite.

But seriously.... we hear every year so and so looks good and they do nothing once the season comes, so I still take it with a grain of salt....

 

[42N8Bounce]

That second unit is tough to predict. The Blazers have a lot of guys that could play multiple positions, depending upon the match-up. Here's my guess at the depth chart -



I'm thinking Stotts will spend some time early in the season finding out who fills the two backup Big roles. I just don't buy into the hype. They've mentioned Jake as a potential rotation player at the PF position. Although Zach hasn't consistently demonstrated it yet, I'm guessing he'll end up with the majority of the minutes. As for Biggie and Leonard, I'd love to see Biggie step up and win that second Big spot, but my guess is that Leonard is closer to earning those minutes.

The Blazers have lots of guys at the SF-SG spots. It's always fun to root for the rookies, but in reality it's tough for them to carve out rotation minutes. Especially guys that were drafted late in the first round and in the second round. I'm thinking Stotts will go with the experience, and we'll see Seth earn the backup minutes at SG and/or PG. Baldwin has shown flashes also, and I think he'll end up with some minutes at the backup PG and/or SG spot. Defensively Baldwin's shown he can match-up with some big PG/SGs (I'm looking at you Harden!).

Let's hope these guys make Stott's job tough with everyone deserving more minutes!

 

[Scalma]

That second unit is tough to predict. The Blazers have a lot of guys that could play multiple positions, depending upon the match-up. Here's my guess at the depth chart -

View attachment 22629

I'm thinking Stotts will spend some time early in the season finding out who fills the two backup Big roles. I just don't buy into the hype. They've mentioned Jake as a potential rotation player at the PF position. Although Zach hasn't consistently demonstrated it yet, I'm guessing he'll end up with the majority of the minutes. As for Biggie and Leonard, I'd love to see Biggie step up and win that second Big spot, but my guess is that Leonard is closer to earning those minutes.

The Blazers have lots of guys at the SF-SG spots. It's always fun to root for the rookies, but in reality it's tough for them to carve out rotation minutes. Especially guys that were drafted late in the first round and in the second round. I'm thinking Stotts will go with the experience, and we'll see Seth earn the backup minutes at SG and/or PG. Baldwin has shown flashes also, and I think he'll end up with some minutes at the backup PG and/or SG spot. Defensively Baldwin's shown he can match-up with some big PG/SGs (I'm looking at you Harden!).

Let's hope these guys make Stott's job tough with everyone deserving more minutes!

Flip Stauskas and Trent and that sounds right to me.

 

[Scalma]

I don't have stats to back this up, and I'm fairly certain you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but Evan Turnover is a Turner machine when he's setting up the offense.

Or something like that.

Probably, but that’s still his best role, at least if we look at how he was utilized in Boston. He turned that ball over there too, but was more effective than he’s been in Portland so far.

 

[hoopsjock]

I don't know if the numbers actually bear this out but I feel like Stotts makes a lot of mistakes when he plays guys based on the match-ups. I always believe in making other teams adapt to your lineups instead of adapting to theirs.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I don't know if the numbers actually bear this out but I feel like Stotts makes a lot of mistakes when he plays guys based on the match-ups. I always believe in making other teams adapt to your lineups instead of adapting to theirs.

I feel like the best teams do a fair amount of we're gonna make you adjust to us.

 

[BBert]

Hit 'em where they ain't!

I still remember Sheed posting up on the lousy Lakers PFs (Robert Horry? Not sure) at the Rose Garden, and just feasting, over and over and over. He looked so bored doing it HaHa.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

thanks for the update. I really dont like the some nights you play some nights you dont thing. I know they’re professional athletes but getting a rythm, chemistry with your team mates and line ups seem so off. In fact it seems like thats how Stotts always plays the 1st half of the year and they struggle through it. Then he settles in a rotation and they start winning.

I wouldn't have a problem with that if it carried over into the playoffs.

 

[calvin natt]

so according to Freeman and Holdahls latest podcast, it seems the Blazers are looking to have CJ and Dame play, and rest, together, instead of staggering minutes and lineups.

They also mentioned Stotts might be inclined to go ten, maybe eleven deep in the rotation as well as being more match up based (meaning a guy may play one night and then not play the next two, etc)

Then they went on to say Curry, Turner, and Collins have rotation spots. The surprise according to them is Stauskas. They think he’s going to factor in the rotation, at least initially. The idea is Turner plays facilitator while Curry and Stauskas provide spacing.

Freeman also mentioned, and he was surprised by this, but according to the people he’s talked to inside the organization, Swanigan has stood out in camp. He also said Meyers and Jake have looked good as well. They’re both of the opinion that those three will play, but it’ll be matchup dependent.

They made sure to emphasize that things could change and that’s what the next four preseason games are for, but this is how things stand for now. I think CJ off the second unit is a real development though and may eventually open up an opportunity for someone like Trent.

That’s great. Every player is great and they have no bad players.

Can’t wait

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Cohesion of the unit. Maximize their ability to know every little thing about the other four they are on the floor with. Constant substitutions make them think more before they can react. Not saying that the first unit wont know the second unit, but no one can deny that you get to know the players next to you best when you are on the court with them.

Id like to see it and see how it works. If nobody has tried it then how do we know it doesn't work?

I'd like to see the Blazers play defense with 4 players and have someone cherry pick down on the offensive end. Guaranteed two point if we get a stop.

How do we know it wouldn't work until some team tries it?

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'd like to see the Blazers play defense with 4 players and have someone cherry pick down on the offensive end. Guaranteed two point if we get a stop.

How do we know it wouldn't work until some team tries it?

Not exactly the same scenario bit i get your point that not everything needs to be tried to know it wont work.

What i would like to see is all five starters go out at one at the end of the first and third quarters and then finishthe last five or so minutes of the second and the fourth with our starters again. What substitutiosn that happen in between im fine with. Like one or two starters comeing back in before the others.

I might have figured out the fatigue part that nobody else really dove into though.
Not all players can maintain 100% effort for the same length of time and why pull dame early because nurk is fatigued faster and needs to come out.