CJ off the second unit

[THE HCP]

As long as he stays healthy, Curry is going to be one of the better sixth men in the league imo. Definitely the best one we’ve had since...Outlaw? Rudy?

You just watched him play in 2 meaningless preseason games and you already have him pegged as one of the best 6th men in the entire league? I don’t even think he will be the 6th man on our team. Maybe 8th or 9th.

 

[Scalma]

You just watched him play in 2 meaningless preseason games and you already have him pegged as one of the best 6th men in the entire league? I don’t even think he will be the 6th man on our team. Maybe 8th or 9th.

Hes had a full seasons worth of production that would’ve qualified him for best sixth man (or bench player, whatever you want to call it) we’ve had since the guys I mentioned.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Hes had a full seasons worth of production that would’ve qualified him for best sixth man (or bench player, whatever you want to call it) we’ve had since the guys I mentioned.

Call me Crazy I know Ed didnt shoot and rack up the stats a guy like Curry will, but he was a great bench player and I dont think we can say if Curry is better.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Call me Crazy I know Ed didnt shoot and rack up the stats a guy like Curry will, but he was a great bench player and I dont think we can say if Curry is better.

Apples:Oranges

In the last 14 years, only one non-guard has won 6MOY (Lamar Odom in 2010-11). The award typically goes to a high scoring, instant offense kind of player, who typically averages between 15 - 20 ppg. Lou Williams averaged 22.6 ppg last year, the 2nd highest scoring average in the history of the award (Ricky Pierce averaged 23.0 ppg in 1988-89), but Lou also averaged nearly 33 MPG (32.8 MPG, 4th highest among 6MOY award winners).

Curry's last year in DAL, he averaged a career high 12.8 ppg, but he also started 42 of the 70 games he played and averaged 29.0 MPG. In order to receive consideration for 6MOY, Curry would need to have a career year and average at least 14 ppg just to get a few 3rd place vote. To be a serious contender, he'd need to average at least 18 ppg (especially if Lou Williams is going to continue to be the No. 1 option for the Clippers in spite of "coming off the bench").

Can Curry get enough minutes and shots to be in the running? Probably not, at least not as a serious contender for the award. Our roster is just too guard heavy. Dame and C,J. will continue to be our No. 1 and No. 2 scoring options, and even if they play fewer minutes this year, I can't see Dame averaging less than 34 MPG (36.4 MPG career average, 36.6 last year) and C.J. averaging less than 33 MPG (36.1 MPG last year).

Turner and Curry will probably be the two leaders in MPG off the bench at the guard/wing positions, but Stauskas looks like he will be a rotation guy, at least initially and then Trent Jr, Simons and Baldwin will see spot minutes here and there. So, not sure if I see Curry averaging the same 29 MPG he did in DAL. Crabbe came close (28.5 MPG his last season in POR). Curry is a better player than Crabbe, but we are deeper at guard now.

Curry's last season in DAL the Mavs were ranked dead last in the NBA in scoring (97.9 ppg) and they had a LOT of churn at the guard positions due to mid-season trades, injuries, etc. All of Wesley Matthews, Deron Williams, Yogi Farrell, J.J. Barea and Curry saw significant minutes at guard. Last year, POR's offense dropped off from 107.9 ppg (8th of 30) to 105.6 ppg (16th of 30). If we can get our team scoring average back up into the 108 ppg range where it used to be (and an improved bench will help), and Curry can average 26 - 28 MPG, I could see him averaging > 14.0 ppg, enough to get a few 3rd place votes for 6MOY, but I just don't see him playing enough minutes and getting enough shots to push him into the 18 - 22 ppg rage where he would challenge Lou Williams and Eric Gordon to actually win the award.

As far as Ed Davis goes, the 6MOY voters seem much more seduced by scoring than rebounding these days. Ed did come in 8th in 6MOY voting his first season in POR (6.5 ppg/7.4 rpg), but didn't get so much as a single 3rd place vote the past two seasons (5.3 ppg/7.4 rpg last season). The lowest scoring average of any 6MOY award winner was Bill Walton at 7.6 pg in 1985-86. The last time anyone won the award while averaging less than 10 ppg was Anthony Mason in 1994-95 at 9.9 ppg.

BNM

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Apples:Oranges

In the last 14 years, only one non-guard has won 6MOY (Lamar Odom in 2010-11). The award typically goes to a high scoring, instant offense kind of player, who typically averages between 15 - 20 ppg. Lou Williams averaged 22.6 ppg last year, the 2nd highest scoring average in the history of the award (Ricky Pierce averaged 23.0 ppg in 1988-89), but Lou also averaged nearly 33 MPG (32.8 MPG, 4th highest among 6MOY award winners).

Curry's last year in DAL, he averaged a career high 12.8 ppg, but he also started 42 of the 70 games he played and averaged 29.0 MPG. In order to receive consideration for 6MOY, Curry would need to have a career year and average at least 14 ppg just to get a few 3rd place vote. To be a serious contender, he'd need to average at least 18 ppg (especially if Lou Williams is going to continue to be the No. 1 option for the Clippers in spite of "coming off the bench").

Can Curry get enough minutes and shots to be in the running? Probably not, at least not as a serious contender for the award. Our roster is just too guard heavy. Dame and C,J. will continue to be our No. 1 and No. 2 scoring options, and even if they play fewer minutes this year, I can't see Dame averaging less than 34 MPG (36.4 MPG career average, 36.6 last year) and C.J. averaging less than 33 MPG (36.1 MPG last year).

Turner and Curry will probably be the two leaders in MPG off the bench at the guard/wing positions, but Stauskas looks like he will be a rotation guy, at least initially and then Trent Jr, Simons and Baldwin will see spot minutes here and there. So, not sure if I see Curry averaging the same 29 MPG he did in DAL. Crabbe came close (28.5 MPG his last season in POR). Curry is a better player than Crabbe, but we are deeper at guard now.

Curry's last season in DAL the Mavs were ranked dead last in the NBA in scoring (97.9 ppg) and they had a LOT of churn at the guard positions due to mid-season trades, injuries, etc. All of Wesley Matthews, Deron Williams, Yogi Farrell, J.J. Barea and Curry saw significant minutes at guard. Last year, POR's offense dropped off from 107.9 ppg (8th of 30) to 105.6 ppg (16th of 30). If we can get our team scoring average back up into the 108 ppg range where it used to be (and an improved bench will help), and Curry can average 26 - 28 MPG, I could see him averaging > 14.0 ppg, enough to get a few 3rd place votes for 6MOY, but I just don't see him playing enough minutes and getting enough shots to push him into the 18 - 22 ppg rage where he would challenge Lou Williams and Eric Gordon to actually win the award.

As far as Ed Davis goes, the 6MOY voters seem much more seduced by scoring than rebounding these days. Ed did come in 8th in 6MOY voting his first season in POR (6.5 ppg/7.4 rpg), but didn't get so much as a single 3rd place vote the past two seasons (5.3 ppg/7.4 rpg last season). The lowest scoring average of any 6MOY award winner was Bill Walton at 7.6 pg in 1985-86. The last time anyone won the award while averaging less than 10 ppg was Anthony Mason in 1994-95 at 9.9 ppg.

BNM

well I literally pointed out that Ed didnt score. I know the PF/C vs guard thing. It wasnt really apples to oranges imo as it was just a comment on best 6th men. Id rather have Ed elite offensive rebounders who are great in your locker room is harder to find than guards are.

Was never claiming that they were similar types of players. Sure Curry has a better shot at getting the 6th man of the year award because they value scoring more than anything with that award.

My comment was never aimed at who had a better shot to get the 6th man award though, because thats not about the best player on the bench as much as it is about best scorer off the bench.

 

[Scalma]

well I literally pointed out that Ed didnt score. I know the PF/C vs guard thing. It wasnt really apples to oranges imo as it was just a comment on best 6th men. Id rather have Ed elite offensive rebounders who are great in your locker room is harder to find than guards are.

Was never claiming that they were similar types of players. Sure Curry has a better shot at getting the 6th man of the year award because they value scoring more than anything with that award.

My comment was never aimed at who had a better shot to get the 6th man award though, because thats not about the best player on the bench as much as it is about best scorer off the bench.

Yeah that’s what I think of when I hear sixth man; bench scorer. And curry is the best one we’ve had since outlaw/Rudy. I also think Curry will end up playing pretty heavy minutes, relatively speaking. He’s the only dependable scorer we have outside of Dame and CJ. CJ also runs more than anybody in the NBA, so scaling his minutes back wouldn’t be the worst idea, especially when you have a guy who’s capable of doing a lot of the same things.

 

[Eastoff]

As long as he stays healthy, Curry is going to be one of the better sixth men in the league imo. Definitely the best one we’ve had since...Outlaw? Rudy?

Mo Williams

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Yeah that’s what I think of when I hear sixth man; bench scorer. And curry is the best one we’ve had since outlaw/Rudy. I also think Curry will end up playing pretty heavy minutes, relatively speaking. He’s the only dependable scorer we have outside of Dame and CJ. CJ also runs more than anybody in the NBA, so scaling his minutes back wouldn’t be the worst idea, especially when you have a guy who’s capable of doing a lot of the same things.

For the record you and @Boob-No-More are right. Curry will definitely garner more attention as a 6th man of the year type than Davis ever did. I understand what you’re saying. My original comment was just about who is the better player overall. I think Ed was pretty tragically under-rated in terms of his on the court ability to just play his role well and off the court work ethic. Curry could be very good for the Blazers in fact I think he will be. I bet we will miss Ed though.

 

[jlprk]

well I literally pointed out that Ed didnt score. I know the PF/C vs guard thing. It wasnt really apples to oranges imo as it was just a comment on best 6th men. Id rather have Ed elite offensive rebounders who are great in your locker room is harder to find than guards are.

Was never claiming that they were similar types of players. Sure Curry has a better shot at getting the 6th man of the year award because they value scoring more than anything with that award.

My comment was never aimed at who had a better shot to get the 6th man award though, because thats not about the best player on the bench as much as it is about best scorer off the bench.

You should congratulate Boob for 3 strawmen in one post.

I think Ed was pretty tragically under-rated in terms of his on the court ability to just play his role well and off the court work ethic.

Ed was tragically underrated in SHOOTING. People on this board think that shooting is the same as shooting range. He consistently completed nifty 5-footers with a couple of tall opponents between him and the basket. Nurkic and Plumlee missed most of the same shots.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Caleb and Meyers are not NBA players, they belong in the DLeague, and I'm not certain they could command a rotational spot there.

Ed Davis was a stud, terrible letting him go. I understand we need more shooters... He is more valuable than Turner as our non shooter. We are going to sorely miss him over the regular season and the only benefit to letting him walk was luxury tax.

All the fanboys who claim there was zero cost to Meyers and others shitty contracts since we are over the cap were wrong. Ed Davis is one of the costs. There are other costs too.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Caleb and Meyers are not NBA players, they belong in the DLeague, and I'm not certain they could command a rotational spot there.

Ed Davis was a stud, terrible letting him go. I understand we need more shooters... He is more valuable than Turner as our non shooter. We are going to sorely miss him over the regular season and the only benefit to letting him walk was luxury tax.

All the fanboys who claim there was zero cost to Meyers and others shitty contracts since we are over the cap were wrong. Ed Davis is one of the costs. There are other costs too.

Im gonna have a hard time disagreeing with even fake Wesley Matthews just a huge Wes fan lol. However I think Caleb still has a “shot” of being something in the NBA. Im so done with the ML experiment though, I just want it to end...
I still have a hard time wrapping my puny brain around NO telling Ed to walk for basically nothing (in NBA terms). Just...

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

You should congratulate Boob for 3 strawmen in one post.



Ed was tragically underrated in SHOOTING. People on this board think that shooting is the same as shooting range. He consistently completed nifty 5-footers with a couple of tall opponents between him and the basket. Nurkic and Plumlee missed most of the same shots.

Important to note in my opinion anyways - Ed hardly ever took shots he wasnt capable of making at a high percentage. He knew what his range was, what his limitations were and worked in those parameters. Ed to me was basically the perfect back up big.

 

[BonesJones]

Caleb and Meyers are not NBA players, they belong in the DLeague, and I'm not certain they could command a rotational spot there.

Ed Davis was a stud, terrible letting him go. I understand we need more shooters... He is more valuable than Turner as our non shooter. We are going to sorely miss him over the regular season and the only benefit to letting him walk was luxury tax.

All the fanboys who claim there was zero cost to Meyers and others shitty contracts since we are over the cap were wrong. Ed Davis is one of the costs. There are other costs too.

Again, Ed Davis wasn't let go for salary reasons...

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Again, Ed Davis wasn't let go for salary reasons...

Disagree. We would have kept him on a vet min contract.

I acknowledge there was a push for more shooting. There are 15 roster spots, we can have a couple non shooters.

I give Neil credit where it's due. I like the draft picks and signing Curry. Letting Ed walk at that price was a huge mistake.

 

[rotary111]

Whether money was the reason or not.

I'd rather have Ed and Vonleh than Meyers and Caleb any day of the week.

I understand the desire to develop Collins was a huge factor. We would just be a much better team with Ed and Noah.

 

[craigehlo]

I give Neil credit where it's due. I like the draft picks and signing Curry. Letting Ed walk at that price was a huge mistake.

Ed averaged less then 3 point in the post season against the Pelicans. He could only score on wide open putbacks. There's no handle, hook shot, above average blocking or passing in his game. Having a dude that only rebounds is a recipe for disaster in the modern NBA. He would be a good player in the 90's NBA, but this a wholly different era of the stretch 4.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Ed averaged less then 3 point in the post season against the Pelicans. He could only score on wide open putbacks. There's no handle, hook shot, above average blocking or passing in his game. Having a dude that only rebounds is a recipe for disaster in the modern NBA. He would be a good player in the 90's NBA, but this a wholly different era of the stretch 4.

I loved Ed's contribution last year. At times he was our best center. (Defense and rebounding) But yeah you are right about the match up against the Pelicans, he rebounded well, but couldn't score and could not guard Mirotic or Davis on the perimeter. He is all center not a PF. Still a great guys to have on the bench. Collins will reach his level at some point. Just not sure it will be this year.

 

[Propagandist]

Ed averaged less then 3 point in the post season against the Pelicans. He could only score on wide open putbacks. There's no handle, hook shot, above average blocking or passing in his game. Having a dude that only rebounds is a recipe for disaster in the modern NBA. He would be a good player in the 90's NBA, but this a wholly different era of the stretch 4.

Except now, it seems, we have actually nothing but Meyers, aka the Hammer, and Zach, who doesn't quite look ready...

 

[Scalma]

Except now, it seems, we have actually nothing but Meyers, aka the Hammer, and Zach, who doesn't quite look ready...

Yeah I didn’t have a problem letting Davis go, but the replacements are poop.

 

[julius]

Except now, it seems, we have actually nothing but Meyers, aka the Hammer, and Zach, who doesn't quite look ready...

I think in the case of Zach, vs other players looking "ready", some of that is just flat out opportunity. I.e., if you had put Mitchell on the team last year, his production would not be what it was last year with Utah. Why? Not enough opportunities.

If you had given Zach 15-25 minutes a night from the get-go, his production probably would look a lot better. And fans would bitch about how they passed over another "stud".

 

[Propagandist]

I think in the case of Zach, vs other players looking "ready", some of that is just flat out opportunity. I.e., if you had put Mitchell on the team last year, his production would not be what it was last year with Utah. Why? Not enough opportunities.

If you had given Zach 15-25 minutes a night from the get-go, his production probably would look a lot better. And fans would bitch about how they passed over another "stud".

Time will tell. I hope Zach develops (but he's no John Collins, the stud we pass over to get him, haha)...

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I think in the case of Zach, vs other players looking "ready", some of that is just flat out opportunity. I.e., if you had put Mitchell on the team last year, his production would not be what it was last year with Utah. Why? Not enough opportunities.

If you had given Zach 15-25 minutes a night from the get-go, his production probably would look a lot better. And fans would bitch about how they passed over another "stud".

Oppurtunity definitely plays a role I won't argue with that. May I submit that I just didnt think Zach was a good pick to start off with?
His defense is pretty good, bbiq seems there, he does have good feet for a big too. He shows flashes of potential. Thats my way of saying im higher on him now then I was last year at this time.
If he becomes an adequate threat on offense he’ll be fine.

Part of the reason he didnt get that oppurtinity is the same reason we dont expect to see Simons this year. NO is drafting guys that look to have potential but also look to not be ready for the oppurunity. Its kind of a good strategy by him, he’s setting expectations low for the first couple years on his draft picks.
You can say Im just complaining if you want. I actually think Simons and Zach could both end up being good at some point. Though when they moved up to 10 I got excited, and Zach wasnt close to the top of my list for guys I wanted them to grab at 10.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Ed averaged less then 3 point in the post season against the Pelicans. He could only score on wide open putbacks. There's no handle, hook shot, above average blocking or passing in his game. Having a dude that only rebounds is a recipe for disaster in the modern NBA. He would be a good player in the 90's NBA, but this a wholly different era of the stretch 4.

Fair points of why he is not a starter or guaranteed a major role in every matchup. At $4 million we can use him in needed situations. Now we won't have his valuable contributions the rest of the year, we will lose more games, and less likely to get HCA.

I agree changes need to be made to address issues after the sweep. Letting Ed walk for a cheap price makes us a worse team.

 

[blue9]

Ed's defense was overrated - he routinely got worked by bigger Cs. He's just too small. He was a great rebounder and a smart player, but he was too small for his position and too offensively limited. That's why he's making the vet min (or close to it).

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'd like to see the Blazers play defense with 4 players and have someone cherry pick down on the offensive end. Guaranteed two point if we get a stop.

How do we know it wouldn't work until some team tries it?

Vivek, is that you? Another celebrity on the board!

 

[THE HCP]

THIS TEAM WIL MISS ED DAVIS ON AND OFF THE COURT!

 

[jlprk]

Ed's defense was overrated - he routinely got worked by bigger Cs. He's just too small. He was a great rebounder and a smart player, but he was too small for his position and too offensively limited. That's why he's making the vet min (or close to it).

Even if that's true, the point is, will Collins ever be any better. Is it worth waiting a couple more years till he's the equal of Davis, when we could have had such a developed player of the same talent right now.

 

[THE HCP]

I wasn’t sold on Collins at first. The thing that turned me in his favor, when he did start getting some run last year, I saw some post moves from him that were straight up Kevin McHale-esque. Some up and unders that just told me this kid can be special. Court vision is up there as well. His outside game will come around. The main reason I believe in him is from what I see and hear from the staff. He has an outstanding work ethic and is always open to criticism. Hearing he put on 20 pounds of muscle.
Guess my biggest thing is he is so young. Gonna be ups and downs, but I think his future is bright.
In The HCP’s expert opinion, there is NO way he brings what Ed did, but he should be able to help in other ways.
Proof that a good attitude will get you places.....shit, I’m proof of that.

 

[Scalma]

Ed's defense was overrated - he routinely got worked by bigger Cs. He's just too small. He was a great rebounder and a smart player, but he was too small for his position and too offensively limited. That's why he's making the vet min (or close to it).

I agree with this for the most part. The only mistake was not finding a competent replacement.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I wasn’t sold on Collins at first. The thing that turned me in his favor, when he did start getting some run last year, I saw some post moves from him that were straight up Kevin McHale-esque. Some up and unders that just told me this kid can be special. Court vision is up there as well. His outside game will come around. The main reason I believe in him is from what I see and hear from the staff. He has an outstanding work ethic and is always open to criticism. Hearing he put on 20 pounds of muscle.
Guess my biggest thing is he is so young. Gonna be ups and downs, but I think his future is bright.
In The HCP’s expert opinion, there is NO way he brings what Ed did, but he should be able to help in other ways.
Proof that a good attitude will get you places.....shit, I’m proof of that.

Have you had a chance to see him in person? He doesnt look like he’s put on ‘that’ much muscle to me. Like maybe some, but 20lbs is a lot. That could just be the way I see it on TV though.