CJ off the second unit

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Ya twice this preseason. I think people forget he’s 7 feet tall. He was a stick last season, so it might not be visible on TV, but he’s getting there.
 
blue9 said:
Ed's defense was overrated - he routinely got worked by bigger Cs. He's just too small. He was a great rebounder and a smart player, but he was too small for his position and too offensively limited. That's why he's making the vet min (or close to it).
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Agreed with some of the criticism when you compare him to good starters. He is not at that level. He is a stud when compared to many backups.

Unfortunately we dont even have good backups. We have a 20 year old, Meyers, and Caleb who might not be worthy of the DLeague.
 
HCP said:
Ya twice this preseason. I think people forget he’s 7 feet tall. He was a stick last season, so it might not be visible on TV, but he’s getting there.
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He's always working the bike, but his leg bones are narrow. They'll carry a little more muscle, but not much. Expect injuries all career from getting knocked over.

It's like a sub-6-footer. He may be great at everything, but it's physically impossible for him to be great at defense. The equivalent for tall guys is being super-thin.
 
jlprk said:
It's like a sub-6-footer. He may be great at everything, but it's physically impossible for him to be great at defense. The equivalent for tall guys is being super-thin.
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Yep, CP3 and Rudy Gobert are just terrible defensively. Don't know how they even stay on the floor.
 
Scalma said:
I agree with this for the most part. The only mistake was not finding a competent replacement.
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Sure. But really, with or without Ed - or a competent replacement - this team's range of success is Lotto>>2nd Round Loser. Maybe we tilt slightly more towards the Lotto end of the spectrum without him, but the range is essentially unchanged and is more affected by how our competitors perform than the absence of Ed. So what's it really matter?
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Yep, CP3 and Rudy Gobert are just terrible defensively. Don't know how they even stay on the floor.
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Dumb. Yeah, and Obama proves that every single black person will inevitably become President.

Proof through exception.
 
jlprk said:
Dumb. Yeah, and Obama proves that every single black person will inevitably become President.

Proof through exception.
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When you say things like "it's physically impossible", a single exception is all that is needed to disprove your claim.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
When you say things like "it's physically impossible", a single exception is all that is needed to disprove your claim.
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Chris Paul doesn't look under 6 feet. Gobert isn't as thin as Collins.
 
jlprk said:
Chris Paul doesn't look under 6 feet. Gobert isn't as thin as Collins.
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Zach may or may not get bigger / stronger. However many really thin players (at least when they’re young) have been alright. Rudy Gobert at Zachs age was a stick man, KG, KD, Dikembe Motumbo, theres a long line of NBA 7 footers who entered the league needing to add a lot of muscle. The question is can Zach get bigger, and if he cant is he skilled enough to over come it.

Ive always heard Chris Paul is lucky to to get to 5’10 in sneakers, but who knows.
 
Chris Paul measured 5'11.75" at the combine. Sub 6-feet

upload_2018-10-8_11-46-47.png

Zach Collins is two inches shorter than Gobert, and measured only 5 lbs lighter at the combine. His BMI was actually higher than Gobert's; ergo, not as skinny


upload_2018-10-8_11-47-38.png
upload_2018-10-8_11-52-28.png

It's OK to be wrong, just be willing to admit it.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
When you say things like "it's physically impossible", a single exception is all that is needed to disprove your claim.
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Actually your logic is right. I have to admit, I walked right into that trap. I'll word statements more carefully. Gotta beware of you logicians.

But if you take out the absolutes in my post, my pearl of wisdom is true. Just substitute "tends to be" for "is." Or "improbable" for "impossible."
 
jlprk said:
Actually your logic is right. I have to admit, I walked right into that trap. I'll word statements more carefully. Gotta beware of you logicians.

But if you take out the absolutes in my post, my pearl of wisdom is true. Just substitute "tends to be" for "is." Or "improbable" for "impossible."
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And with those, I'd have no quibble.
 
jlprk said:
Gobert isn't as thin as Collins.
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Did you see him when he was a rookie? How about you look at Giannis and tell me about tall skinny defenders:

bil-greek-workout.jpg
 
Propagandist said:
The numbers aren't so sure though:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1_hint=John Collins&player_id1_select=John Collins&player_id1=collijo01&y1=2018&player_id2_hint=Zach Collins&player_id2_select=Zach Collins&y2=2018&player_id2=colliza01&idx=players
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The eye test is enough for me. He was also a garbage defender in college. I don't see where his lack of D then has transferred to now. I've seen a good bit of Atlanta and yeah still looks garbage and is beaten regularly.
 
dviss1 said:
The eye test is enough for me. He was also a garbage defender in college. I don't see where his lack of D then has transferred to now. I've seen a good bit of Atlanta and yeah still looks garbage and is beaten regularly.
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Yeah, I've hardly seen him play. Talking about drafting him was a joke I'm too lazy to explain.
 
Another "exception" (I'm surprised no one has mentioned him):

Marcus Camby 6'11, 220 lb

camby-blazers-copy.jpg


That is Marcus Camby at 35-years old in his 14th NBA season, proving he didn't need to beef up and add muscle to be one of the best defenders of his generation.

DPOY, led the league in BLK/G four times and BLK% three times and has the 8th best career BLK% in NBA history.

And, just so you don't think he was a 1-trick pony who only blocked shots, he also led the league in TRB% 4 times, has the 8th highest career TRB% in NBA history, led the league in DBPM five times and has the 3rd highest career DBPM in the history of the league. So, in addition to blocking shots, he was a damn good rebounder and overall defender, and also a pretty decent passer for a big man.

Of all the people who have played the game, Marcus Camby proves, beyond all doubt that you don't need to weigh 265 lb, or even 230 lb. to be one of the best defenders and best rebounders the game has seen.

Rookie Collins was an inch taller and 12 lb heavier than Camby's playing weight. Lack of size won't hold him back (his hands of stone might - he really seems to have trouble catching the ball, I mentioned it back during simmer league).

BNM
 
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blue9 said:
Sure. But really, with or without Ed - or a competent replacement - this team's range of success is Lotto>>2nd Round Loser. Maybe we tilt slightly more towards the Lotto end of the spectrum without him, but the range is essentially unchanged and is more affected by how our competitors perform than the absence of Ed. So what's it really matter?
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What a defeated pathetic attitude. Why try to improve the team when we are unlikely to win a title? Maybe you would rather root for the Kings. Or do you only care about a team that can win a title? Maybe you should hop on the warriors bandwagon.

I enjoy watching hustle players that help the team. Ed embodied that. Now I have to watch lesser players take his place along with an expectatation the team will be worse.

Maybe we make a big improvement or an unexpected event happens, (ie trade for Jimmy Butler, Nurk becomes an All-star, Durant is injured for the season) now the decision to let Ed walk could hurt real chances of a western conference finals. There was no upside to the move outside of saving luxury tax money.

I suppose you can enjoy watching Meyers and Caleb, congrats.
 
You guys sure have a lot of pictures of players who are downright fat compared to Collins. Do you think you're proving anything? Nice pictures, though. Thanks for trying.
 
Propagandist said:
Yeah, I've hardly seen him play. Talking about drafting him was a joke I'm too lazy to explain.
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John Collins is better on defense than Zach is on offense, and they’re the same age. Collins had a PER that would’ve ranked him third on Portland. As a rookie. Objectively speaking, the two players don’t belong in the same sentence right now. Let’s not be complete homers.
 
Scalma said:
John Collins is better on defense than Zach is on offense, and they’re the same age. Collins had a PER that would’ve ranked him third on Portland. As a rookie. Objectively speaking, the two players don’t belong in the same sentence right now. Let’s not be complete homers.
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I'm in the Zach-ain't-close-to-ready camp.
 
Propagandist said:
I'm in the Zach-ain't-close-to-ready camp.
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I’m not, I think defensively he’s valuable, but if you’re right, we are so fucked. I mean, we’re already pretty fucked as is, but you know what I mean.

The worst part is knowing Neil’s history, we’ll get no outside help until next summer after he realizes that Meyers, Biggie, etc weren’t good enough. Similar situation to Connaughton last year. Those guys will play just out of necessity, even if/when they don’t deserve to.
 
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