CJ off the second unit

[hoopsjock]

John Collins is better on defense than Zach is on offense, and they’re the same age. Collins had a PER that would’ve ranked him third on Portland. As a rookie. Objectively speaking, the two players don’t belong in the same sentence right now. Let’s not be complete homers.

I'm in the Zach-ain't-close-to-ready camp.

We'll, I guess the plan is to just throw Zach out there and hope playing a lot gives him the confidence to swim instead of sink. While I agree that John had a much better year and it's not close but I think we also need to account for situation. Knowing you are getting minutes on one of the worst teams in the league with no pressure and nothing on the line is a little different than trying to contribute to a team fighting for home court advantage in the West where every game the last half of the season had major playoff implications. Zach hopefully will figure out how to play as a key component of the team rather than just trying not to screw up which he seems to be doing now. When John is in the game he knows there isn't much talent around him and can play however he wants.

 

[Scalma]

We'll, I guess the plan is to just throw Zach out there and hope playing a lot gives him the confidence to swim instead of sink. While I agree that John had a much better year and it's not close but I think we also need to account for situation. Knowing you are getting minutes on one of the worst teams in the league with no pressure and nothing on the line is a little different than trying to contribute to a team fighting for home court advantage in the West where every game the last half of the season had major playoff implications. Zach hopefully will figure out how to play as a key component of the team rather than just trying not to screw up which he seems to be doing now. When John is in the game he knows there isn't much talent around him and can play however he wants.

Thing is, there’s also an easy counter to your argument; Zach was surrounded by better players than John. His job should’ve been easier and teams never game planned for him.

But we can go in circles. My main point is Zach doesn’t belong in the same sentence as John right now. Any other argument is subjective/wishful thinking. I hope for our sake Zach makes a jump though. I still believe in him.

 

[Propagandist]

Our success this season, I think, will depend first on Dame and CJ being themselves, on Nurk playing to his potential and Curry or Stauky probably exceeding expectations. Otherwise, yes, we are fucked. As far as Zach goes: as long as he continues to D up and take the open shot AND play well enough to keep Swanigan off the court, we should be fine. I think people WAY overvalue his everything, but he's what we've got and so so it goes. I almost think we should start him, honestly, like we did with Noah, to help relieve some of the pressure he's obviously feeling.

 

[Scalma]

Our success this season, I think, will depend first on Dame and CJ being themselves, on Nurk playing to his potential and Curry or Stauky probably exceeding expectations. Otherwise, yes, we are fucked. As far as Zach goes: as long as he continues to D up and take the open shot AND play well enough to keep Swanigan off the court, we should be fine. I think people WAY overvalue his everything, but he's what we've got and so so it goes. I almost think we should start him, honestly, like we did with Noah, to help relieve some of the pressure he's obviously feeling.

Yesss. Collins in the starting lineup is a great idea and his game compliments Nurkic well. On the second unit were probably going to need him to score, at least more than if he were in the starting lineup. Not such a great idea considering where he is in his offensive development.

With Harkless’ injury/limited minutes, this would be a great time to do it as well. Move Aminu to SF.

 

[Boob-No-More]

You guys sure have a lot of pictures of players who are downright fat compared to Collins. Do you think you're proving anything? Nice pictures, though. Thanks for trying.

Yes, I realize now how bloated Camby looks in that photo I posted. He was obviously retaining water that day. Probably had Taco Bell for lunch.

BNM

 

[Scalma]

Dame
CJ
Aminu
Collins
Nurkic

Curry
Stauskas
Turner
Harkless
Leonard

This could also allow Harkless’ game to expand. We could use him in the post since Leonard likes to float on the perimeter.

 

[Boob-No-More]

What a defeated pathetic attitude. Why try to improve the team when we are unlikely to win a title? Maybe you would rather root for the Kings. Or do you only care about a team that can win a title? Maybe you should hop on the warriors bandwagon.

Isn't the whole point of giving Ed's minutes to Zach to accelerate his improvement? Yes, Ed is obviously better than Swanigan or Leonard, but for the team to improve, we need Zach Collins to be better than Ed Davis, and the only way he will get there is through gaining the experience that comes with increased playing time.

Sure, it's a risk, but sitting back and doing more of the same thing wasn't going to result in any significant improvement for this team.

BNM

 

[craigehlo]

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/carmelo/zach-collins/

This is the reality of statistical comparisons to Zach. His closest comparison is Spencer Hawes and his projection (compared to last year's data) went from promising rookie to defensive specialist.

 

[Propagandist]

Isn't the whole point of giving Ed's minutes to Zach to accelerate his improvement? Yes, Ed is obviously better than Swanigan or Leonard, but for the team to improve, we need Zach Collins to be better than Ed Davis, and the only way he will get there is through gaining the experience that comes with increased playing time.

Sure, it's a risk, but sitting back and doing more of the same thing wasn't going to result in any significant improvement for this team.

BNM

Is it worth watching him implode like last night? He's cracking and it's only pre-season! Look what the pressure did to Meyers! He talks like a WWF wrestler!

Being in the starting allows Zach to focus on being in the right spots and takes all the offense pressure off a guy that's clearly not offensively creative.

Again, I just don't think it's worth it. The kid looks like he's got the ceiling of a solid role player. Maybe he'll be a great defender, maybe not. Whatever happens, it'll be a while. I know we are going to force it, I just don't understand it. I know olshey compared this situation with the CJ/Wesley but that's obviously a terrible comp considering how incredible CJ was in college. I just think the risk outweighs the reward.

 

[hoopsjock]

Thing is, there’s also an easy counter to your argument; Zach was surrounded by better players than John. His job should’ve been easier and teams never game planned for him.

But we can go in circles. My main point is Zach doesn’t belong in the same sentence as John right now. Any other argument is subjective/wishful thinking. I hope for our sake Zach makes a jump though. I still believe in him.

In a vacuum it should probably be easier, especially since Zach played well in the NCAA Tourney so the pressure shouldn't be getting to him. I know this isn't necessarily the case with Zach at Gonzaga but that was just one year and most of these guys go from being the alpha on whatever team they've played on their whole life to having to fit in as a guy who only plays sometimes or in garbage minutes. John's minutes were much more consistent, especially after some injuries to Atlanta's front line. Every game he's played in as a pro has been basically meaningless. I think there is a difference between telling a guy to just go do whatever the fuck they want (pretty much) and every time you touch the ball you are trying not to fuck up.

Once again, I'm not trying to argue that Zach is better than John. I'd just love to see the effects of a situation reversal.

 

[blue9]

I almost think we should start him, honestly, like we did with Noah, to help relieve some of the pressure he's obviously feeling.

Playing with better players (starters) would certainly make the game easier for him where he can play off the talent surrounding him.
Aminu has no untapped potential. That's literally all Zach has. Starting accelerates his growth and likely maximizes his contributions - win/win. Therefore, Terry will start Aminu.

 

[Scalma]

Playing with better players (starters) would certainly make the game easier for him where he can play off the talent surrounding him.
Aminu has no untapped potential. That's literally all Zach has. Starting accelerates his growth and likely maximizes his contributions - win/win. Therefore, Terry will start Aminu.

Like what exactly does Harkless do that makes him such a better fit at SF than Aminu? He doesn’t handle the ball any better. He doesn’t really create for himself. He’s not a better defender. Put Aminu at SF, start Collins, and let Harkless expand his offensive game with the second unit.

 

[Scalma]

Another idea would be to make Aminu the backup center and make use of the surplus of guards. Most second units around the league don’t have a legit low post threat and go small anyway.

So something like

Curry
Trent/Simons
Stauskas
Turner
Aminu

Gets Leonard the fuck off the court. I know I’d rather see Trent/Simons out there and I bet Aminu is a better rim protector/rebounder.

 

[hoopsjock]

Like what exactly does Harkless do that makes him such a better fit at SF than Aminu? He doesn’t handle the ball any better. He doesn’t really create for himself. He’s not a better defender. Put Aminu at SF, start Collins, and let Harkless expand his offensive game with the second unit.

Harkless thrives when he has a smaller guy on him. He isn't as effective against bigger guys because it's not like he blows by people off the dribble. Playing him at PF is basically saying that you want the bad Harkless all the time instead of just half of the time.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Isn't the whole point of giving Ed's minutes to Zach to accelerate his improvement? Yes, Ed is obviously better than Swanigan or Leonard, but for the team to improve, we need Zach Collins to be better than Ed Davis, and the only way he will get there is through gaining the experience that comes with increased playing time.

Sure, it's a risk, but sitting back and doing more of the same thing wasn't going to result in any significant improvement for this team.

BNM

Zach played his best along side Ed. Zach can play PF or C. The kid is 20, it's not as though we had an immediate need to hand him a 30 mpg role. If he proves he is ready let him push Aminu out of the starting SF spot.

Now when one of Nurk Aminu Zach miss time, a virtual certainty over 82 games, we won't have any backup big. Leonard and Caleb are below replacement value.

If one of those three miss 20+ games we are really screwed.

I don't believe handing bad players roles makes them good.

I see this as a risk like you say with downside but no reward.

 

[Scalma]

Man even Harry Giles looks good...

 

[Scalma]

Harkless thrives when he has a smaller guy on him. He isn't as effective against bigger guys because it's not like he blows by people off the dribble. Playing him at PF is basically saying that you want the bad Harkless all the time instead of just half of the time.

I didn’t say I wanted Harkless starting at PF, but he’d be fine playing the four on the second unit since most teams go small.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

We have two out of four of the worst??!! What is PIPM and is he also taking account of how much they are (over)paid?

 

[blue9]

Like what exactly does Harkless do that makes him such a better fit at SF than Aminu? He doesn’t handle the ball any better. He doesn’t really create for himself. He’s not a better defender. Put Aminu at SF, start Collins, and let Harkless expand his offensive game with the second unit.

Totally disagree here. Harkless may not be great at anything, but he's certainly equal to or better than Aminu in most areas. Harkless has also shown to play better as a starter, whereas Aminu's best role was when he played off the bench in DAL.
Unless and until we get someone better, Harkless is our starting SF.
Aminu should be our back-up PF - that's his ideal role on any team.
Collins should be our starting PF because his development is our only hope of being a good team anytime soon.

 

[Scalma]

Totally disagree here. Harkless may not be great at anything, but he's certainly equal to or better than Aminu in most areas. Harkless has also shown to play better as a starter, whereas Aminu's best role was when he played off the bench in DAL.
Unless and until we get someone better, Harkless is our starting SF.
Aminu should be our back-up PF - that's his ideal role on any team.
Collins should be our starting PF because his development is our only hope of being a good team anytime soon.

I mean a good Harkless is better than a good Aminu, maybe, but what does it matter when that guy only shows up periodically? Consistency matters. Harkless doesn’t deserve to start over Aminu.

 

[hoopsjock]

I mean a good Harkless is better than a good Aminu, maybe, but what does it matter when that guy only shows up periodically? Consistency matters. Harkless doesn’t deserve to start over Aminu.

I think the question is does Harkless deserve a chance to show whether he's matured as a player this year? If he starts the year like he played in the 2nd half of last year then in my opinion he should be the starting SF.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I think the question is does Harkless deserve a chance to show whether he's matured as a player this year? If he starts the year like he played in the 2nd half of last year then in my opinion he should be the starting SF.

If he can't get healthy enough to get on the court, it really won't matter. I'm more than a little discouraged by the fact that he's still not game ready 5 months after his knee procedure.

 

[Scalma]

I think the question is does Harkless deserve a chance to show whether he's matured as a player this year? If he starts the year like he played in the 2nd half of last year then in my opinion he should be the starting SF.

In the scenario where Collins starts? I don’t know how you can justify benching Aminu when he was pretty much the only guy that showed up in the playoffs. It’s not like the good Harkless is that much better than the good Aminu either.

 

[Scalma]

If he can't get healthy enough to get on the court, it really won't matter. I'm more than a little discouraged by the fact that he's still not game ready 5 months after his knee procedure.

What was the injury originally reported as?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

What was the injury originally reported as?

Originally, he had his knee scoped in March to clear out a "loose body". After he came back for games 2 & 3 in the playoffs, he sat out game 4 after he "irritated" the knee in game 3. AFAIK, there hasn't been any other information given about his knee.

And I guess this makes it nearly 7 months since his procedure, not 5 as I originally posted, and nearly 6 months since he further "irritated" it in the playoffs. One has to wonder, if he was cleared to get back on the court just two weeks after being scoped, why is he not yet able to play now 6 months later? Is there something more serious wrong with his knee than any of us know?

 

[calvin natt]

We have two out of four of the worst??!! What is PIPM and is he also taking account of how much they are (over)paid?

https://fansided.com/2018/01/11/nylon-calculus-introducing-player-impact-plus-minus/

 

[Scalma]

Originally, he had his knee scoped in March to clear out a "loose body". After he came back for games 2 & 3 in the playoffs, he sat out game 4 after he "irritated" the knee in game 3. AFAIK, there hasn't been any other information given about his knee.

And I guess this makes it nearly 7 months since his procedure, not 5 as I originally posted, and nearly 6 months since he further "irritated" it in the playoffs. One has to wonder, if he was cleared to get back on the court just two weeks after being scoped, why is he not yet able to play now 6 months later? Is there something more serious wrong with his knee than any of us know?

Hmm that timeline is more concurrent with an ACL tear but I’m no doctor. Maybe he tore something after he came back? Or maybe he just had setbacks since he rushed back? Either way, it sucks. It sucks that our X factor is someone so unreliable, whether it’s his fault (play) or not (injuries)