CJ with Dame sidelined

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If you look at the numbers CJ puts up with and without Dame it raises significant issues regarding their chemistry. Their cooperation on the court leaves much to be desired, they don't feed of each other they barely pass between them. If we could make this duo somehow bigger than the sum of its parts we'll be in contention but it seems like the opposite: Dame puts up monstrous numbers with CJ non existant and CJ flourishing with Dame on the bench.
What say you?
 
And it’s crazy CJ always gets close to triple doubles as well
 
GaryTrentSupporter said:
If you look at the numbers CJ puts up with and without Dame it raises significant issues regarding their chemistry. Their cooperation on the court leaves much to be desired, they don't feed of each other they barely pass between them. If we could make this duo somehow bigger than the sum of its parts we'll be in contention but it seems like the opposite: Dame puts up monstrous numbers with CJ non existant and CJ flourishing with Dame on the bench.
What say you?
Click to expand...
@illmatic99 made a similar post earlier and brought up some good point (IMO) as well other posters about they could be utilized better.
 
GaryTrentSupporter said:
If you look at the numbers CJ puts up with and without Dame it raises significant issues regarding their chemistry. Their cooperation on the court leaves much to be desired, they don't feed of each other they barely pass between them. If we could make this duo somehow bigger than the sum of its parts we'll be in contention but it seems like the opposite: Dame puts up monstrous numbers with CJ non existant and CJ flourishing with Dame on the bench.
What say you?
Click to expand...

How do you figure that McCollum is non existent when Lillard plays? He has been very consistent and our second leading scorer for several years as well as second in assists.
 
CupWizier said:
How do you figure that McCollum is non existent when Lillard plays? He has been very consistent and our second leading scorer for several years as well as second in assists.
Click to expand...

some context on that though, assists/100 possessions:

2015/16:

Damian Lillard 9.6 Tim Frazier 7.7 CJ McCollum 6.1 Brian Roberts 5.8 Mason Plumlee 5.4

2016/17:

Damian Lillard 8.1 Mason Plumlee 7.0 Shabazz Napier 6.5 Evan Turner 6.1 Jusuf Nurkić 5.4 CJ McCollum 5.1

2017/18:

Damian Lillard 9.0 Shabazz Napier 4.9 CJ McCollum 4.6 Evan Turner 4.2 Jusuf Nurkić 3.4

2018/19:

Damian Lillard 9.4 Evan Turner 8.5 Jusuf Nurkić 5.7 Nik Stauskas 4.5 Anfernee Simons 4.5 CJ McCollum 4.2 Meyers Leonard 4.1

2019/20:

Damian Lillard 10.2 CJ McCollum 5.3 Caleb Swanigan 3.6 Skal Labissière 3.5

the assist rate numbers look about the same, by the way. It was a 4 year trend of CJ getting worse and worse as a play-maker as he morphed into MeJ. It took Olshey basically gutting the team of any capable play-makers, along with Nurkic's injury, to stop that trend this season.
 
wizenheimer said:
some context on that though, assists/100 possessions:

2015/16:

Damian Lillard 9.6 Tim Frazier 7.7 CJ McCollum 6.1 Brian Roberts 5.8 Mason Plumlee 5.4

2016/17:

Damian Lillard 8.1 Mason Plumlee 7.0 Shabazz Napier 6.5 Evan Turner 6.1 Jusuf Nurkić 5.4 CJ McCollum 5.1

2017/18:

Damian Lillard 9.0 Shabazz Napier 4.9 CJ McCollum 4.6 Evan Turner 4.2 Jusuf Nurkić 3.4

2018/19:

Damian Lillard 9.4 Evan Turner 8.5 Jusuf Nurkić 5.7 Nik Stauskas 4.5 Anfernee Simons 4.5 CJ McCollum 4.2 Meyers Leonard 4.1

2019/20:

Damian Lillard 10.2 CJ McCollum 5.3 Caleb Swanigan 3.6 Skal Labissière 3.5

the assist rate numbers look about the same, by the way. It was a 4 year trend of CJ getting worse and worse as a play-maker as he morphed into MeJ. It took Olshey basically gutting the team of any capable play-makers, along with Nurkic's injury, to stop that trend this season.
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lmao! Your hate for McCollum is hilarious. McCollum plays the majority of his minutes as a shooting guard. His main role on the team is to be a scorer.
 
CupWizier said:
lmao! Your hate for McCollum is hilarious. McCollum plays the majority of his minutes as a shooting guard. His main role on the team is to be a scorer.
Click to expand...
OK. Let's look at some comparable 'high usage' tandems:

Houston ->
'19-'20 -> Harden 9.3, Westbrook 9.3
'18-'19 -> Paul 12.5, Harden 10.0

GSW ->
'18-'19 -> Green 10.5, Durant 8.0, Curry 7.4
'17-'18 -> Green 10.7, Curry 9.2, Durant 7.6

Washington
'18-'19 -> Wall 12.0, Satoransky 8.7, Beal 7.0
'17-'18 -> Wall 13.8, Satoransky 8.6, Beal 6.2

The main point in showing this is that just because CJ primarily plays SG and is a 'scorer', that it doesn't alleviate his responsibility to share the ball. You can have more than 1 player on a team average more than 8 assists/100 possessions while also scoring.
 
GaryTrentSupporter said:
If you look at the numbers CJ puts up with and without Dame it raises significant issues regarding their chemistry. Their cooperation on the court leaves much to be desired, they don't feed of each other they barely pass between them. If we could make this duo somehow bigger than the sum of its parts we'll be in contention but it seems like the opposite: Dame puts up monstrous numbers with CJ non existant and CJ flourishing with Dame on the bench.
What say you?
Click to expand...

This team would be unstoppable if we played with two balls.
 
Teams with their second leader in APG, plus those teams lucky enough to have more players who exceed CJ's APG:

ATL: *Teague* (PG) 4.4
BOS: Smart (PG) 4.8, Hayward (SF) 4.3
BKN: Irving (PG) 6.4
CHA: Rozer (PG) 4.0
CHI: Levine (PG) 4.2
CLE: Love (PF) 3.0
DAL: Barea (PG) 3.8
DEN: Murry (PG) 4.8
DET: Jackson (PG) 5.1, Kennard (SG) 4.1
GSW: Green (PF) 6.2
HOU: Westbrook (PG) 7.2
IND: McConnel (PG) 5.1, Sabonis (PF) 4.8
LAC: Leonard (SF) 5.3, Jackson/Beverly (PG) 4.0
LAL: Rondo (PG) 5.3
MEM: Jones (PG) 4.5
MIA: Bam (PF) 5.0, Dragic (PG) 5.0, Winslow (SF) 4.0
MIL: Bledsoe (PF) 5.4, Middleton (SF) 4.2
MIN: *Teague* (PG) 6.1, Napier (PG) 5.2, Towns (C) 4.4, McLaughlin (PG) 4.1
NOP: Holiday (SG) 6.8, Ingram (SF) 4.3
NYK: Randle (PF) 3.2
OKC: Schoder (PG) 4.0
ORL: Augustin (PG) 4.6
PHI: Horford (PF) 3.8
PHX: Booker (SG) 6.3
POR: CJ (SG) 4.0
SAC: Joseph (PG) 3.3
SAS: Murray (PG) 4.0
TOR: VanVleet (SG) 6.7
UTH: Mitchell (SG) 4.3, Conley (PG) 4.2
WAS: Smith (PG) 4.7

Average 2nd = 4.87

Yeah, CJ comes in below average. But for all the bitching you would think he was off by a hell of a lot more than less than one. All things considered, I'd say there are only 7 teams with a 2nd play-maker that is significantly better than CJ...and only two of those teams are better than us. Given that I am such an awful coach and have us DEAD LAST in APG, I'd say CJ is doing just fine. Get him someone who knows what they are doing, and he could easily be averaging 5.5 APG.

Also, call me crazy, but there seems to be quite a pattern where that list is dominated by PGs. As far as SGs go, it's really only Holiday, Booker, and VanVleet that standout above CJ. Too bad Neil is such an idiot and hasn't traded CJ for any of those guys.

Long story short: I am a shit coach and holding not just CJ back, but the entire team.
 
Terry Stotts said:
Teams with their second leader in APG, plus those teams lucky enough to have more players who exceed CJ's APG:

ATL: *Teague* (PG) 4.4
BOS: Smart (PG) 4.8, Hayward (SF) 4.3
BKN: Irving (PG) 6.4
CHA: Rozer (PG) 4.0
CHI: Levine (PG) 4.2
CLE: Love (PF) 3.0
DAL: Barea (PG) 3.8
DEN: Murry (PG) 4.8
DET: Jackson (PG) 5.1, Kennard (SG) 4.1
GSW: Green (PF) 6.2
HOU: Westbrook (PG) 7.2
IND: McConnel (PG) 5.1, Sabonis (PF) 4.8
LAC: Leonard (SF) 5.3, Jackson/Beverly (PG) 4.0
LAL: Rondo (PG) 5.3
MEM: Jones (PG) 4.5
MIA: Bam (PF) 5.0, Dragic (PG) 5.0, Winslow (SF) 4.0
MIL: Bledsoe (PF) 5.4, Middleton (SF) 4.2
MIN: *Teague* (PG) 6.1, Napier (PG) 5.2, Towns (C) 4.4, McLaughlin (PG) 4.1
NOP: Holiday (SG) 6.8, Ingram (SF) 4.3
NYK: Randle (PF) 3.2
OKC: Schoder (PG) 4.0
ORL: Augustin (PG) 4.6
PHI: Horford (PF) 3.8
PHX: Booker (SG) 6.3
POR: CJ (SG) 4.0
SAC: Joseph (PG) 3.3
SAS: Murray (PG) 4.0
TOR: VanVleet (SG) 6.7
UTH: Mitchell (SG) 4.3, Conley (PG) 4.2
WAS: Smith (PG) 4.7

Average 2nd = 4.87

Yeah, CJ comes in below average. But for all the bitching you would think he was off by a hell of a lot more than less than one. All things considered, I'd say there are only 7 teams with a 2nd play-maker that is significantly better than CJ...and only two of those teams are better than us. Given that I am such an awful coach and have us DEAD LAST in APG, I'd say CJ is doing just fine. Get him someone who knows what they are doing, and he could easily be averaging 5.5 APG.
Click to expand...

assists per game is a raw stat that lacks some significant context. CJ is 58th in the NBA in assists/game (espn), but he's 6th in minutes/game. Of players who have played at least 25 games, CJ is tied for 99th in assists/100-possessions and is 94th in assist rate

Terry Stotts said:
Also, call me crazy, but there seems to be quite a pattern where that list is dominated by PGs. As far as SGs go, it's really only Holiday, Booker, and VanVleet that standout above CJ. Too bad Neil is such an idiot and hasn't traded CJ for any of those guys.
Click to expand...

again, that deceptive. That's why I think it's helpful to normalize for assist rates rather than raw assist numbers which disregard minutes & usage. When that's done, it's a different picture

take assist/100-possessions for instance...

if you just narrow it down to players who play some significant minutes at SG (30% of the time or more), these guards are better than CJ, sometimes by quite a bit:

Malcolm Brogdon, Spencer Dinwiddie, James Harden, Jrue Holiday, Tomáš Satoranský, Lou Williams, Fred VanVleet, Jimmy Butler, Joe Ingles, Devin Booker, Bradley Beal, Elie Okobo, Delon Wright, DeMar DeRozan, Marcus Smart, Derrick White, Khris Middleton, Gordon Hayward, Luke Kennard, Caris LeVert, Donovan Mitchell, Zach LaVine, Will Barton

and there are others better who aren't PG's:

Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokić, Draymond Green, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kawhi Leonard, Bam Adebayo, Mason Plumlee, Domantas Sabonis, Paul George, Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Karl-Anthony Towns, Brandon Ingram, Nikola Vučević[URL='https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bartowi01.html'], Kyle Anderson[/URL]

that somebody like Bam Adebayo, in only his 3rd season, has an assist/100 rate 35% higher than CJ's is kind of revealing
 
Klay Thompson always have big games without curry, Beal is balling out like never before without wall, Porzings put big numbers without doncic so that’s not a point, every great player trends to step up when their best player or a key guy is missing. Cj is a beast, incredible talent, needs this to stepping up and get back on his stroke. Nurkic and Dame comin back soon
 
I do think CJ would be better as the main backcourt scorer.

Thought for a number of years they should really trade Lillard if they want to maximize the chance to contend. But he's probably to good to get equivalent value.

If the team had 3 or 4 below average but still playable wings they'd be in the playoffs and an interesting team.

So I wouldn't say CJ is a problem... but he isnt the most critical position for a Lillard team. So it's not maximizing the benefit of your second best player... then we got scrubs like Melo playing 35 mpg at 35...
 
wizenheimer said:
assists per game is a raw stat that lacks some significant context.
...
again, that deceptive. That's why I think it's helpful to normalize for assist rates rather than raw assist numbers which disregard minutes & usage. When that's done, it's a different picture

take assist/100-possessions for instance...
Click to expand...
HUrDuHDUR. UsInG 100-PoSSesSsionS IsN'T DeCEpTIve AT AlL! DerPaDerP! BUt iT helPs PRoVE mY OpINiON.

Wanna just sweep aside the context of how my system creates the least amount of assists in the entire league? Yeah, thats not at all relevant to the discussion. The difference between us and #29 (1.5 APG) is greater than the difference between CJ's APG and the average APG for the #2 play-maker on each team (.9 APG).

wizenheimer said:
if you just narrow it down to players who play some significant minutes at SG (30% of the time or more), these guards are better than CJ, sometimes by quite a bit:

Malcolm Brogdon, Spencer Dinwiddie, James Harden, Jrue Holiday, Tomáš Satoranský, Lou Williams, Fred VanVleet, Jimmy Butler, Joe Ingles, Devin Booker, Bradley Beal, Elie Okobo, Delon Wright, DeMar DeRozan, Marcus Smart, Derrick White, Khris Middleton, Gordon Hayward, Luke Kennard, Caris LeVert, Donovan Mitchell, Zach LaVine, Will Barton

and there are others better who aren't PG's:

Luka Dončić, Nikola Jokić, Draymond Green, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Kawhi Leonard, Bam Adebayo, Mason Plumlee, Domantas Sabonis, Paul George, Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Karl-Anthony Towns, Brandon Ingram, Nikola Vučević, Kyle Anderson
Click to expand...
So a bunch of really good players have similar or better assist numbers than CJ? Do go on!

Also that list is largely made up of names I already mentioned, so cool? Also that list includes a lot of teams #1 play-makers where I was comparing #2 play-makers. So cool?

Also, have fun convincing anybody that we'd be better with Satoranksy, Okobo, Wright, White.

wizenheimer said:
that somebody like Bam Adebayo, in only his 3rd season, has an assist/100 rate 35% higher than CJ's is kind of revealing
Click to expand...
And what exactly does it reveal? That Eric is a much better coach than me? Well dUUUUUUUhhhhhhUUuuuuh!
Or is it that Neil is so stupid for not trading CJ for Bam? I honestly don't know what you're getting at because I'm Terry Stotts and I'm a huge moron.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
This team would be unstoppable if we played with two balls.
Click to expand...

Well, you have NO balls because you're a DOG, and NEUTERED.

How do you like that, huh?

:ghoti:

Oh, and until we get rid of Terry Stotts, it's all irrelevant. He is not going to force CJ to pass or be anything more than what he is. Otherwise, he would have done it already.
 
CJ would look really good in Philly.

I'd be happy with any of their big four players coming back in exchange (Embiid, Simmons, more realistically, Horford or Tobias)
 
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