CJ

[MightyMouseOps1]

Why is it so many people here want to trade CJ? I admit I had my doubts about a Dame and CJ backcourt coming into the season but CJ has exceeded my expectations. He looks nothing like a flash in the pan offensively. The crazy thing to me is many people seem so set on trading CJ while the consensus is Brad Beal is deserving of a max deal. IMO they are very similar players. Beal is a slightly better shooter and CJ creates slightly better off the dribble.

While I realize it is a small sample size for CJ, I see nothing that suggest he cannot produce at his current level consistently. He can spot shoot, he can shoot off the dribble, and he is improving at creating for others. IMO CJ is a solid building block for the future and we should embrace the scoring ability of this backcourt. For the people who would rather trade CJ, who are the players at the 2 guard position you would suggest are better or significant upgrades?

Wade is older, does not fit with this young team, and he's not leaving Miami
beal is very good but is about to get a max deal and is only marginally better
Jimmy butler is better on both I doubt we can get him
Klay is better because he is bigger and a better defender, but CJ is better off the dribble, and Klay does not want to leave
Oladipo- is he better? Better defender IMO and better athlete, but CJ is more skilled
Knight- similar to CJ. Really has improved, but what's the point?
Derozan- super athlete but cannot shoot at all.. Lives at ft line
Harden- obv harden is better but this is very unrealistic

 

[BigGameDamian]

Derozan and Dame would be amazing! I disagree.

 

[Draco]

I think the majority are very happy with CJ. I've always been a big fan of his but many that were skeptical are now starting to embrace him.

Its more there's an appearance of unhappiness because the minority that don't like him continually post the same criticisms.

It's a similar phenomenon to some fans opinion of Stotts.

Also I suspect may fans aren't paying attention to the changes with how the NBA game is played. CJ doesn't look at all like a SG from 10 years ago. But he's perfectly sized for the modern game.

 

[riverman]

I've gone back and forth on CJ...he has big games just when I'm about to give up on him but his biggest weakness as a starting 2 guard to me is perimeter defense. As a 6 man I love him. I think that's his calling. As a starting 2 guard, I want a bigger 3 and D guy who can contain bigger, athletic 2 guards. I wanted Nic Batum to be a 2 guard as a Blazer and now he's thriving in Charlotte at the 2. I'm not a huge fan of Lillard and McCollum sharing that much court time.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Why is it so many people here want to trade CJ? I admit I had my doubts about a Dame and CJ backcourt coming into the season but CJ has exceeded my expectations. He looks nothing like a flash in the pan offensively. The crazy thing to me is many people seem so set on trading CJ while the consensus is Brad Beal is deserving of a max deal. IMO they are very similar players. Beal is a slightly better shooter and CJ creates slightly better off the dribble.

While I realize it is a small sample size for CJ, I see nothing that suggest he cannot produce at his current level consistently. He can spot shoot, he can shoot off the dribble, and he is improving at creating for others. IMO CJ is a solid building block for the future and we should embrace the scoring ability of this backcourt. For the people who would rather trade CJ, who are the players at the 2 guard position you would suggest are better or significant upgrades?

Wade is older, does not fit with this young team, and he's not leaving Miami
beal is very good but is about to get a max deal and is only marginally better
Jimmy butler is better on both I doubt we can get him
Klay is better because he is bigger and a better defender, but CJ is better off the dribble, and Klay does not want to leave
Oladipo- is he better? Better defender IMO and better athlete, but CJ is more skilled
Knight- similar to CJ. Really has improved, but what's the point?
Derozan- super athlete but cannot shoot at all.. Lives at ft line
Harden- obv harden is better but this is very unrealistic

Welcome to RipCityTwo!

 

[Draco]

I would be very curious what CJ would look like if Dame were out for say 10 games. I think he'd have some monster games and really open some eyes with his numbers. We'd certainly be worse as a team; just as if CJ was out. Dame had the PG position wide open for his taking when he arrived. CJ never had that opportunity. Dame's never missed a game in his career.

 

[handiman]

I love CJ and I love Dame, but I'm only luke warm about the combination. I don't think we'll ever be better than a fringe playoff team with that sieve of a starting back court.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

I don't think CJ is in his best role right now. I think he'd be better as a 6th man giving us scoring punch off the bench.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

I don't see that many people hating on Cj. He is what he is. A great scorer that does a couple other things fine. He is a perfect 6th man, elite even. He reminds me some of jason terry and that's ok. I'd just like a starting sg that plays better man d and can hit 3s. Cj can come off the bench and still get 30 mpg.

 

[BlayZa]

i think CJ and Dame are largely similar in both offense and defense, and bring a lot of the same skills in regards to scoring with the ball in hand. This is a gift and a curse.

they are both on the smaller side and we've seen them get in a lot of trouble against larger pg/sg combos AND we've also seen them shoot the lights out against the same combinations.

Would i probably swap CJ for a larger more stereotypical bodied SG with a near skillset? yeah sure. Is there one for the same cost that is available and not coveted by their current team? Unlikely.

I think we're gonna just nee to ride it out and see how things progress and make a change if we are either forced into it - or it becomes a necessity.

 

[BonesJones]

Lillard/Beal with McCollum off the bench would be the best backcourt in the league by far. Beal is slightly better than McCollum but he's a wayyyyy better fit next to Dame, as he can lockdown the perimeter.

 

[handiman]

i think CJ and Dame are largely similar in both offense and defense, and bring a lot of the same skills in regards to scoring with the ball in hand. This is a gift and a curse.

Would i probably swap CJ for a larger more stereotypical bodied SG with a near skillset? yeah sure. Is there one for the same cost that is available and not coveted by their current team? Unlikely.

That's why I was saying in the draft thread, as stupid as it sounds and may well be, the smart play is to trade Dame for a shot or two at the top pick. You couldn't get two more similar players and people than CJ and Dame. They're pretty much identical in size, athleticism, skills, personality, pedigree, etc. CJ only has modest trade value, but Dame should be able to bring a lot back. Give CJ a season to grow into the role and I'm betting the difference would be negligible. And if you go that route, you can put a pure PG alongside CJ at the combo guard position, something that could never quite be justified with Dame. Dame just hasn't improved his handle enough (a big concern of mine in his rookie summer league) to be avoid getting stripped in traffic.

Miami struggled with a similar problem early on with LeBron and Wade being mirror images of each other. 1 + 1 = 1.5 at best. They were eventually able to make it work pretty well by having Wade take a big time back seat, but they never could come close to maximizing the talents of the two. And a big difference there is they were two of the best defenders in the league, so any offensive meshing shortcomings could be glossed over. CJ and Dame are at the low end of the scale. They can't stop anyone and their offensive similarities make them fairly easy to shut down late in games if they're not guns blazin' red hot. It's a reasonably entertaining brand of basketball, but I don't see much long-term success in it.

 

[SpamKing]

CJ is Lillard's boy, and he will probably stay as long as Dame wants him to. From the quotes, I'd guess that Damian was very instrumental in CJ's draft. If you don't like the guy, you might as well get used to him; he's here to stay . . .

 

[VanillaGorilla]

That's why I was saying in the draft thread, as stupid as it sounds and may well be, the smart play is to trade Dame for a shot or two at the top pick. You couldn't get two more similar players and people than CJ and Dame. They're pretty much identical in size, athleticism, skills, personality, pedigree, etc. CJ only has modest trade value, but Dame should be able to bring a lot back. Give CJ a season to grow into the role and I'm betting the difference would be negligible. And if you go that route, you can put a pure PG alongside CJ at the combo guard position, something that could never quite be justified with Dame. Dame just hasn't improved his handle enough (a big concern of mine in his rookie summer league) to be avoid getting stripped in traffic.

Miami struggled with a similar problem early on with LeBron and Wade being mirror images of each other. 1 + 1 = 1.5 at best. They were eventually able to make it work pretty well by having Wade take a big time back seat, but they never could come close to maximizing the talents of the two. And a big difference there is they were two of the best defenders in the league, so any offensive meshing shortcomings could be glossed over. CJ and Dame are at the low end of the scale. They can't stop anyone and their offensive similarities make them fairly easy to shut down late in games if they're not guns blazin' red hot. It's a reasonably entertaining brand of basketball, but I don't see much long-term success in it.

CJ is nowhere near as athletic as Dame. CJ isn't quick with the ball and isn't explosive at the rim. I don't think he could do what Damian does and has done for this team over the last few years.

 

[dviss1]

Why is it so many people here want to trade CJ? I admit I had my doubts about a Dame and CJ backcourt coming into the season but CJ has exceeded my expectations. He looks nothing like a flash in the pan offensively. The crazy thing to me is many people seem so set on trading CJ while the consensus is Brad Beal is deserving of a max deal. IMO they are very similar players. Beal is a slightly better shooter and CJ creates slightly better off the dribble.

While I realize it is a small sample size for CJ, I see nothing that suggest he cannot produce at his current level consistently. He can spot shoot, he can shoot off the dribble, and he is improving at creating for others. IMO CJ is a solid building block for the future and we should embrace the scoring ability of this backcourt. For the people who would rather trade CJ, who are the players at the 2 guard position you would suggest are better or significant upgrades?

Wade is older, does not fit with this young team, and he's not leaving Miami
beal is very good but is about to get a max deal and is only marginally better
Jimmy butler is better on both I doubt we can get him
Klay is better because he is bigger and a better defender, but CJ is better off the dribble, and Klay does not want to leave
Oladipo- is he better? Better defender IMO and better athlete, but CJ is more skilled
Knight- similar to CJ. Really has improved, but what's the point?
Derozan- super athlete but cannot shoot at all.. Lives at ft line
Harden- obv harden is better but this is very unrealistic

Great first thread. Welcome to the forum. Watch that guy @HCP.

He don't take kindly to noobs creating threads. (they took er jebz!) LOL. I don't participate in the HCP' wife jokes but if he gives you any static, that's usually the go-to move. Kinda like a Dame stepback 3.

 

[dviss1]

, as stupid as it sounds and may well be, the smart play is to trade Dame

Blasphemy. You're right about one thing, it does sound stupid.

 

[KingSpeed]

Dame and CJ are each top 5 at their position. Our record is not indicative of how good our team is. There was some bad luck and we've had a road heavy schedule. I still expect us to win 40-50 games.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Dame and CJ are each top 5 at their position.

Except if you take defense into account.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

That's why I was saying in the draft thread, as stupid as it sounds and may well be, the smart play is to trade Dame for a shot or two at the top pick.

You don't trade anybody good for a "shot" at the top pick. Conversely, if you are convinced that the player you can get will be better than the player you trade (as Simmons probably will be than Lillard) then nobody is untouchable.

 

[Draco]

Dame and CJ are each top 5 at their position. Our record is not indicative of how good our team is. There was some bad luck and we've had a road heavy schedule. I still expect us to win 40-50 games.

We've had an easier than average schedule. Coming up in December we have a 4 game road trip followed five days later by a 5 game trip.

Expecting as little as 40 wins; so you're starting to hedge your preseason prediction it appears.

 

[blue9]

Blasphemy. You're right about one thing, it does sound stupid.

It does sound stupid, and it would be the gutsiest trade ever made. But if you could GUARANTEE that you're trading Lillard for Simmons I think it would absolutely be the right thing to do. The league is STACKED with PGs right now, and nearly devoid of any wing talent. Trade Dame for Simmons, sign someone like Dragic and we're a far better team than we currently are.

And to everyone saying that CJ is fine because there aren't any big, dominant SGs in the league right now: all it takes is one. As soon as the next 6'7" dominant SG enters the league guys like CJ will be crushed. And this small-ball thing the league is going through right now isn't an evolution of the game, it's based on where the talent currently lies. If another dominant C comes along we'll be right back in an arms race for big bodies. And if a dominant C ever gets paired with a dominant wing we'll have another dynasty on our hands. We just happen to be in a time period where all the wings (aside from a couple) are mediocre, the Cs are role players, and there are 15+ good-to-great PGs. But dominant wings are always the starting point for building a championship hopeful.

 

[Sinobas]

Dame and CJ are each top 5 at their position. Our record is not indicative of how good our team is. There was some bad luck and we've had a road heavy schedule. I still expect us to win 40-50 games.

Dude, CJ is not a top 5 SG.

 

[Strenuus]

Dude, CJ is not a top 5 SG.

inb4 KS asks you to list 5 better SG's.

 

[Blazinaway]

CJ is Lillard's boy, and he will probably stay as long as Dame wants him to. From the quotes, I'd guess that Damian was very instrumental in CJ's draft. If you don't like the guy, you might as well get used to him; he's here to stay . . .

Interestingly they recently did a poll on the 2013 draft in another forum, CJ who was picked #11 was currently rated the #4 best player at this time from that draft - that was an average of his ratings. That was a really crappy draft class!

 

[handiman]

CJ is nowhere near as athletic as Dame. CJ isn't quick with the ball and isn't explosive at the rim. I don't think he could do what Damian does and has done for this team over the last few years.

They have different ways of utilizing their athleticism, but I see them as pretty similar athletes. Dame is a bit more straight ahead while CJ does a lot of side to side, but their speed, strength, and ability to get to the spot they want doesn't differ by much. CJ is also improving rapidly at getting to the rim and getting freethrows. Actually, he's probably improved faster at that, relative to playing time, than Dame did.

You don't trade anybody good for a "shot" at the top pick. Conversely, if you are convinced that the player you can get will be better than the player you trade (as Simmons probably will be than Lillard) then nobody it untouchable.

It would have to be a very good shot, and even then only if you're convinced there are 2-3 franchise players in the draft. The lottery is too unpredictable. But remember, it's a two-part play. By moving Dame for picks, you're assuring this year's team of a very high pick, so now you have multiple theoretical shots at those top guys.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

CJ is nowhere near as athletic as Dame. CJ isn't quick with the ball and isn't explosive at the rim. I don't think he could do what Damian does and has done for this team over the last few years.

Not as athletic? I've seen CJ do a mid step, afterburner juke move that Dame could only dream about. Dude can explode when he has to. And Dame IS athletic. Both guys are, but they each have their own best stuff. I too am somewhat on the fence about CJ but I'd love to see this combo have at least another season after this before we do anything crazy.

 

[Draco]

It does sound stupid, and it would be the gutsiest trade ever made. But if you could GUARANTEE that you're trading Lillard for Simmons I think it would absolutely be the right thing to do. The league is STACKED with PGs right now, and nearly devoid of any wing talent. Trade Dame for Simmons, sign someone like Dragic and we're a far better team than we currently are.

And to everyone saying that CJ is fine because there aren't any big, dominant SGs in the league right now: all it takes is one. As soon as the next 6'7" dominant SG enters the league guys like CJ will be crushed. And this small-ball thing the league is going through right now isn't an evolution of the game, it's based on where the talent currently lies. If another dominant C comes along we'll be right back in an arms race for big bodies. And if a dominant C ever gets paired with a dominant wing we'll have another dynasty on our hands. We just happen to be in a time period where all the wings (aside from a couple) are mediocre, the Cs are role players, and there are 15+ good-to-great PGs. But dominant wings are always the starting point for building a championship hopeful.

What if, when this player comes, when that comes; it doesn't sound like you believe the recent trends in the NBA are long lasting changes. We will just have to disagree on that one. I believe the rule changes have permanently increased the effectiveness of skilled PG's. Physical SG's are far less important in today's game.

But I don't believe there's one better or worse position to target to build a contender; its all about talent and a mix of players that enhances teammates strengths but masks their weakness. You can build a title winning team with any position as the best player. Last year Golden State did with Curry at PG, Heat did with LeBron at SF, Mavs did with Dirk at PF, Lakers did with Kobe at SG, Heat did with Shaq at C. Spurs did without any of those MVP talents but a collection of borderline all-stars.

There's no blueprint that has to be followed to build a contender. Perhaps the best blueprint is having an open mind. Most people thought the Spurs couldn't win as they have without MVP candidates. Most thought the Warriors would never win with an offense primarily based off jump shots. There will be another style of champion in the future with a style most expect cannot succeed.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Not as athletic? I've seen CJ do a mid step, afterburner juke move that Dame could only dream about. Dude can explode when he has to. And Dame IS athletic. Both guys are, but they each have their own best stuff. I too am somewhat on the fence about CJ but I'd love to see this combo have at least another season after this before we do anything crazy.

Right now C.J's trade value is really high.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Not as athletic? I've seen CJ do a mid step, afterburner juke move that Dame could only dream about. Dude can explode when he has to. And Dame IS athletic. Both guys are, but they each have their own best stuff. I too am somewhat on the fence about CJ but I'd love to see this combo have at least another season after this before we do anything crazy.

He's definitely not as athletic as Damian. Good moves aren't the same as athleticism.

 

[MightyMouseOps1]

Lillard/Beal with McCollum off the bench would be the best backcourt in the league by far. Beal is slightly better than McCollum but he's a wayyyyy better fit next to Dame, as he can lockdown the perimeter.

Lockdown defender with beal is pushing it.