Claver wants out

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noknobs said:
This is unfortunate, I've always felt Victor deserved more of a shot, but at the expense of who and at what position is the problem. Not to mention when he's been given the opportunity he didn't perform. It ultimately doesn't matter how well he shoots in practice if he goes out and shoots 40% from the field and 17% from three.
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If Victor played for another team and wasn't getting any time, I doubt fans would be burning up to trade for him.
 
Wizard Mentor said:
You want Vic to "Learn to make a fucking wide open shot"? How about the rest of the team to learn to play "fucking" position defense? Worst players than him are playing in front of him, and he's seen it for years now.

If he's not being played because other players fit the system better (i.e. they shoot better), than just trade him. What have they been waiting for?
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Oh boo hoo. Playing time is earned, not given. This is his 3rd season with the team - all under Stotts and all in the same system. If he hasn't figured out what's expected of him and how to do it by now, he never will. He's played himself out of the rotation. He started 16 games and averaged 16.6 MPG his rookie season. It's pretty hard to argue with Stotts' decisions when the team exceeded all expectations, won 54 games last season, advanced to the 2nd round without HCA and is in first place in the division right now. Do you honestly think the team would more successful if Vic played more minutes? Remember, our offense and defense are both currently top 5 in efficiency. Do you really think having Victor in the rotation would make the team better?

He's getting payed $1.37 million to work hard in practice, be ready if someone goes down with an injury, look nice in a suit and not rock the boat. I find it bad form for the 15th man on the roster to whine about PT and demand a trade when the team is winning. If the team was losing, trying other options should be considered, but right now, Victor Claver is in no position to demand anything.

BNM
 
noknobs said:
Not to mention when he's been given the opportunity he didn't perform.
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I don't know if the numbers bear this out. He played in 21 games last season. Of those games 9 of them were for for 2m or less, so that effectively reduces his "games played" to 12. Of those 12 games he only played >10m nine times. Here's his minutes and shooting for those nine games:

23m: 4/9 shooting
14m: 1/4 shooting
16m: 1/3 shooting
19m: 2/5 shooting
12m: 0/0 non-shooting
22m: 5/7 shooting
12m: 0/3 shooting
24m: 2/3 shooting
10m: 0/1 shooting

He's certainly not lighting it up by any means, but for someone with such extremely limited playing time he's not done terribly. It's pretty difficult to make an offensive impact when you rarely see the court, and then on the rare occasion that you do it's for the final meaningless minute of garbage time.

Luke Babbitt played in 40 and 62 games in his last two seasons with us, and he wasn't just picking up the final minute of garbage time. And last year Dorrell Wright played in 68 games while averaging 14mpg and shooting 37% - Claver's NBA career percentage is 39%!

Claver hasn't been given a shot. I don't particularly care, but he's certainly more deserving of PT than Wright. But at least Wright isn't playing either!
 
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yuyuza1 said:
I think Vic is head and shoulders better than Wright at every facet of the game (Wright is a "shooter" who can't .... shoot). Vic's problem is his shooting. He's a good defender, and makes smart plays, but his offensive game (from what we saw last year) is trash. There's a spot in the regular rotation for him if he could get a decent jumper.

Edit: and let's be honest here. Do you guys really think Vic's agent asking out will affect team chemistry?
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So basically, in your opinion, our 15th man is better at half the game than our 14th man. Wright has only played 47 minutes all season. So, it's not like he is hogging a ton of PT that could be going to Vic.

No, it won't effect team chemistry, but it's an unnecessary distraction and bad form for your 15th man to go whining to the press and demand a trade.

BNM
 
The season isn't over yet. I'm willing to bet Victor Claver ends up playing more in the next 20 games if not then maybe the second half of the season.. Stotts has said many times "It's a process". The process is not done yet. The Blazers are only 18 games into the season.
Patience would do his agent some good.
 
I wouldn't trade him. His agent can ask for whatever but I don't think we should trade him.
He'd get a chance eventually. Right now we have 2 SGs not available, if it was 2 PFs we could really use him, and if he stays off the IR he'd get minutes in garbage time. He's still under contract, don't trade him Neil.
 
blue9 said:
I don't know if the numbers bear this out. He played in 21 games last season. Of those games 9 of them were for for 2m or less, so that effectively reduces his "games played" to 12. Of those 12 games he only played >10m nine times. Here's his minutes and shooting for those nine games:

23m: 4/9 shooting
14m: 1/4 shooting
16m: 1/3 shooting
19m: 2/5 shooting
12m: 0/0 non-shooting
22m: 5/7 shooting
12m: 0/3 shooting
24m: 2/3 shooting
10m: 0/1 shooting

He's certainly not lighting it up by any means, but for someone with such extremely limited playing time he's not done terribly. It's pretty difficult to make an offensive impact when you rarely see the court, and then on the rare occasion that you do it's for the final meaningless minute of garbage time.

Luke Babbitt played in 40 and 62 games in his last two seasons with us, and he wasn't just picking up the final minute of garbage time. And last year Dorrell Wright played in 68 games while averaging 14mpg and shooting 37% - Claver's NBA career percentage is 39%!

Claver hasn't been given a shot. I don't particularly care, but he's certainly more deserving of PT than Wright. But at least Wright isn't playing either!
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During his career with the Blazers he's averaged 14.2 minutes over 70 games. He's averaged 39.4% from the field, 26.7% from three and a PER of 7.3. Instead of cherry picking games last year in which he played over 10min, maybe you should instead ask yourself why he didn't play over 10min in the other games? Was it because he wasn't playing well? Did his 0 point, 1 ast, 1 rb performance against San Antonio in over 7 min of playing time perhaps not justify him playing another 3 minutes? When he played over 6 min against Atlanta and scored 0 points to go along with 0 ast and 1 rb, were you outraged that he didn't play another 4 minutes? Or when he played 6 minutes against Denver and went 1/3 for 2 points, 1 ast and 1 rb?

Since you brought up Wright, who you're also glad isn't playing - Wright's PER during his career with the Blazers is 11.5 in about 13.8 min over 75 games. Not sure why you brought up Babbitt? When Babbitt played in 40 games Portland's record was 28-38. When he played 62 games Portland's record was 33-49.

Comparing him to Wright or Babbitt isn't the issue. The issue is justifying playing him over the guys currently in the rotation on a 14-4 team, and he's done nothing to justify that. I think Barton, TRob and Leonard all have a better argument than Claver for playing time and they're not bitching. CJ obviously does once he gets back as well. I know it's tough to perform when you don't get consistent minutes, but this is the NBA we're talking about. You have to make the most of the little chances you get or you're going to end up in street clothes.

Despite everything I just said :), I'd like to see him get a chance this year but not sure if it'll happen. If he gets a chance somewhere else I hope he takes advantage of it.
 
Joel Freeland is the perfect example of what Vic should be doing. Joel and Vic were both rookies the same year. Both shot poorly, but of the 2, Vic looked way more promising. In spite of the poor shooting, he passed the eye test - he looked like he belonged on an NBA court. On the other hand, Joel looked completely overwhelmed and lost. Most here wrote off Joel as a wasted draft pick after his rookie season.

In his exit interview, Joel asked the coaches what he needed to work on to carve out a role that would get him PT and help the team - then he worked on exactly those things and came back his second year looking much more like a legitimate NBA rotation player. Joel will never be a star, not even a starter, but he's earned a spot in the regular rotation on a team that's 14-4 and in first place. He had to adjust his own expectations and modify his game to find a niche he could fill. During their rookie season , he was behind both Vic and Meyers in the rotation. With one off season of hard, focused work, he passed them both.

This is what Vic should be doing, not whining to the press about PT and demanding a trade.

BNM
 
Blazer4ever said:
I wouldn't trade him. His agent can ask for whatever but I don't think we should trade him.
He'd get a chance eventually. Right now we have 2 SGs not available, if it was 2 PFs we could really use him, and if he stays off the IR he'd get minutes in garbage time. He's still under contract, don't trade him Neil.
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[video=youtube;Z_dZw1iBWL0]

Why? You think he's the missing piece?
 
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noknobs said:
Comparing him to Wright or Babbitt isn't the issue. The issue is justifying playing him over the guys currently in the rotation on a 14-4 team, and he's done nothing to justify that. I think Barton, TRob and Leonard all have a better argument than Claver for playing time and they're not bitching. CJ obviously does once he gets back as well. I know it's tough to perform when you don't get consistent minutes, but this is the NBA we're talking about. You have to make the most of the little chances you get or you're going to end up in street clothes.
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I think you may have mistaken what I wrote as being an argument for him to get playing time - that wasn't my intent at all! ;)
I was merely making an argument that he hasn't been given an opportunity (outside of a small opportunity his rookie year). I only mentioned Babbitt and Wright to illustrate that those sucks got WAY MORE of an opportunity than Claver ever has.
I'm absolutely, in no way suggesting that Claver should get playing time. But if the choice is to give Claver minutes or Wright minutes, I think the nod has to go to Claver.
 
Clever got shots to prove his worth in past seasons. He even started a bunch of games. But he didn't impress. What makes him think he'll get minutes on another team?
 
blue9 said:
I think you may have mistaken what I wrote as being an argument for him to get playing time - that wasn't my intent at all! ;)
I was merely making an argument that he hasn't been given an opportunity (outside of a small opportunity his rookie year). I only mentioned Babbitt and Wright to illustrate that those sucks got WAY MORE of an opportunity than Claver ever has.
I'm absolutely, in no way suggesting that Claver should get playing time. But if the choice is to give Claver minutes or Wright minutes, I think the nod has to go to Claver.
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From a production standpoint, yes. From a trade value standpoint, no. Wright has the better moveable contract because it's larger.
 
blue9 said:
I think you may have mistaken what I wrote as being an argument for him to get playing time - that wasn't my intent at all! ;)
I was merely making an argument that he hasn't been given an opportunity (outside of a small opportunity his rookie year). I only mentioned Babbitt and Wright to illustrate that those sucks got WAY MORE of an opportunity than Claver ever has.
I'm absolutely, in no way suggesting that Claver should get playing time. But if the choice is to give Claver minutes or Wright minutes, I think the nod has to go to Claver.
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I figured you weren't arguing for him to get playing time when you wrote "I don't particularly care" :lol: I was responding more to show that he has at least had some opportunity and hasn't done much with it.

Wright and Claver have gotten very similar opportunities. If my math is correct, Wright has played 1031 minutes in 75 games for Portland and Claver has played 996 minutes in 70 games. Neither has been that great but Dorell's PER is higher fwiw. And Babbitt did get more opportunity but on a bad team.
 
noknobs said:
I figured you weren't arguing for him to get playing time when you wrote "I don't particularly care" :lol: I was responding more to show that he has at least had some opportunity and hasn't done much with it.

Wright and Claver have gotten very similar opportunities. If my math is correct, Wright has played 1031 minutes in 75 games for Portland and Claver has played 996 minutes in 70 games. Neither has been that great but Dorell's PER is higher fwiw. And Babbitt did get more opportunity but on a bad team.
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I admit I discarded Claver's rookie season without even looking at it, because as an older foreign rookie there was very little chance he'd contribute even if given a chance. So instead I focused on his second season. But in going back and looking at Claver's first (and ONLY) shot he actually shot >40% during the time frame where he was getting consistent play - Feb - 41.5%, Mar - 46.7%, Apr - 41%. :dunno:
I still don't want him in the rotation. :lol:
 
If he's not playing there is a disconnect between Olshey and Stotts. Neil should have realized this already and fixed the problem.



Boob-No-More said:
Oh boo hoo. Playing time is earned, not given. This is his 3rd season with the team - all under Stotts and all in the same system. If he hasn't figured out what's expected of him and how to do it by now, he never will. He's played himself out of the rotation. He started 16 games and averaged 16.6 MPG his rookie season. It's pretty hard to argue with Stotts' decisions when the team exceeded all expectations, won 54 games last season, advanced to the 2nd round without HCA and is in first place in the division right now. Do you honestly think the team would more successful if Vic played more minutes? Remember, our offense and defense are both currently top 5 in efficiency. Do you really think having Victor in the rotation would make the team better?

He's getting payed $1.37 million to work hard in practice, be ready if someone goes down with an injury, look nice in a suit and not rock the boat. I find it bad form for the 15th man on the roster to whine about PT and demand a trade when the team is winning. If the team was losing, trying other options should be considered, but right now, Victor Claver is in no position to demand anything.

BNM
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I hope we do trade him and he gets an opportunity somewhere else. I like Vic and wish him the best
 
Wizard Mentor said:
If he's not playing there is a disconnect between Olshey and Stotts. Neil should have realized this already and fixed the problem.
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Why is there is disconnect? Somebody has to be the 15th man. It's not like Olshey drafted Claver. He did sign him - three summers ago, before we knew what Stotts' system would be and whether, or not Claver would fit that system.

Until now, I've been perfectly happy with Claver as our 15th man. But, unfortunately, he's not and went public with his whining.

BNM
 
Because the reason he's not playing is that he doesn't fit the system.

Boob-No-More said:
Why is there is disconnect? Somebody has to be the 15th man. It's not like Olshey drafted Claver. He did sign him - three summers ago, before we knew what Stotts' system would be and whether, or not Claver would fit that system.

Until now, I've been perfectly happy with Claver as our 15th man. But, unfortunately, he's not and went public with his whining.

BNM
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Wizard Mentor said:
Because the reason he's not playing is that he doesn't fit the system.
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Don't you think if other teams were actually interested they would make an offer? I'm sure Olshey would even accept a second rounder for him.

I want to be in your court, but maybe Olshey has tried to get him to another team. Maybe the GMs around the league aren't interested
 
Wizard Mentor said:
Because the reason he's not playing is that he doesn't fit the system.
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As well as the guys playing ahead of him...

Maybe, instead of calling his agent and demanding a trade, he should spend his time figuring out what he needs to improve to better fit the coach's/team's needs.

Claver seems like a smart guy. He seems like he should be able to adapt his skill set to a variety of situations. Not sure why that hasn't happened. And he's the one that wants out. I'm sure if Stotts was unhappy with Vic as our 15th man, he'd be gone by now.

For some reason, the Spurs seem to be able to make almost every player (except Steven Jackson) they acquire learn to work within their system. I would have never predicted Patty Mills would be a great fit in San Antonio (turnover prone, shoot first PG with no defense, etc.), but look at him now.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Joel Freeland is the perfect example of what Vic should be doing. Joel and Vic were both rookies the same year. Both shot poorly, but of the 2, Vic looked way more promising. In spite of the poor shooting, he passed the eye test - he looked like he belonged on an NBA court. On the other hand, Joel looked completely overwhelmed and lost. Most here wrote off Joel as a wasted draft pick after his rookie season.

In his exit interview, Joel asked the coaches what he needed to work on to carve out a role that would get him PT and help the team - then he worked on exactly those things and came back his second year looking much more like a legitimate NBA rotation player. Joel will never be a star, not even a starter, but he's earned a spot in the regular rotation on a team that's 14-4 and in first place. He had to adjust his own expectations and modify his game to find a niche he could fill. During their rookie season , he was behind both Vic and Meyers in the rotation. With one off season of hard, focused work, he passed them both.

This is what Vic should be doing, not whining to the press about PT and demanding a trade.

BNM
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Another thing Joel did, if I'm not mistaken, he stayed here and worked on those things he needed to work on rather than "representing" England in international competition during the off season. None of our other Euros have done that, to my knowledge. I wish Batum would. Claver, it doesn't matter one way or the other.
 
Let's play the Brundlefly game again: put Claver and TRob in the transporter together and see what we get.
 
Boob-No-More said:
Oh boo hoo. Playing time is earned, not given.
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Bullshit. Coaches dictate PT and they seldom follow a strict meritocracy. What I presume you mean is "PT should be earned not given". But even that isn't true: a smart coach will recognize when player who isn't necessarily as good as a teammate will blossom if given PT.

This is his 3rd season with the team - all under Stotts and all in the same system. If he hasn't figured out what's expected of him and how to do it by now, he never will. He's played himself out of the rotation.
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I must have blinked when he was playing himself out of the rotation.

Stotts has a pattern: he plays the starters huge minutes and then is pretty random with what bench players he gives minutes to. He also yanks players pretty damn quickly. Now he has Blake and Kaman, there're next to no minutes for another bench player (and what minutes there are go to Crabbe or a big).

I think part of the problem is that Claver is a good glue player, so would make sense as a starter, but is also a tweener, and they don't tend to be starters. Plus, we desperately need bench scoring, and he just isn't a scorer.

I think the nail in the coffin came when Nic was out. Stotts could have started Vic, because Vic is basically a poor man's Batum. But we seem to have decided that he's actually a backup PF (despite him being ill-suited for that) and that Crabbe is the man to develop. Now, because Crabbe is actually playing well (and HITTING SHOTS) it's hard to argue with that. But a much younger player stealing his slot has to be galling.


Victor Claver is in no position to demand anything.
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Where do you find the outrage? His agent is doing what agents do. Claver isn't a whiner, despite what your somewhat xenophobic tirades insist.
 
Claver, Leonard, Wright, don't care either way. Although of the three if Wright doesn't mind not playing I'd be fine with him staying. Just don't let the locker room get a cancer.
 
Stotts hates Euro players!

:MARIS61:

It's a race thing or continent thing, not sure what to call it but it's definitely a thing.
 
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