Collins and Allen

[footswalker]

Seriously, can anyone come up with a worse starting 4 and 5 combo in the last 20 years? Even the horrible '89-'90 Nets (who went 17-65) had Roy Hinson and Sam Bowie who both scored more than 14 points a game and grabbed 7 -10 boards each. Even the worst team of the last 20 years, the 97-98 Nuggets (11-71!!) at least had Danny Fortson and Tony Battie who averaged 19 points combined and would still be an upgrade over these two we have. Right now, Collins and Allen average barely 6 ppg and 5.5 RPG COMBINED. If anyone can find a worse starting combo than this Nets one, please let me know. It's a historically bad combination and we are all witnesses. I encourage Mr. Thorne and Mr. Frank (avid posters here, I'm sure) to come up with an answer for me....

 

[Mehul]

start boone and williams!</p>

 

[Dumpy]

again, who starts is irrelevant if they only play 15 minutes a night. It looks like Boone may be becoming the primary big du jour. How unexpected would that be? Boone has the best chance of doing the "little things" that Rod and the coaches demand from the bigs--while still grabbing some rebounds and scoring a few points.</p>

 

[footswalker]

How is it irrevelant if they put you in a first quarter hole every night? Your starters are supposed to be getting you off to a good "start" and setting the tone. The first 6-8 minutes are extremely important and just as important as the 4th. All the points count! Instead, the Nets never come out running, and struggle for baskets every single 1st quarter.

Boone still has the hands of an embryo, but yeah, he'd be better in the starting lineup, why not?

 

[Universe]

Boone played last night the way a coach would like him too -- effective.</p>

I really miss having a constant post scorer.</p>

 

[Jizzy]

two 10th men starting for us. recipe for disaster</p>

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

again, who starts is irrelevant if they only play 15 minutes a night. It looks like Boone may be becoming the primary big du jour. How unexpected would that be? Boone has the best chance of doing the "little things" that Rod and the coaches demand from the bigs--while still grabbing some rebounds and scoring a few points.</p>

</div></p>

BS, the who starts is irrelevant argument is pure BS. we get off to slow starts due to lack of offensive firepower. Sorry, Collins should not be starting due to lack of offense which basically makes it 4 on 5 and Malik is inconsistent as well as Kidd so it's really RJ and VC on 5. I defy you to find me a starter who's as big of a liabilty. go ahead.</p>

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

again, who starts is irrelevant if they only play 15 minutes a night. It looks like Boone may be becoming the primary big du jour. How unexpected would that be? Boone has the best chance of doing the "little things" that Rod and the coaches demand from the bigs--while still grabbing some rebounds and scoring a few points.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Actually, there have been quite a few games where Malik's played 20-40 minutes. 2-5 in those games.</p>

Collins ain't that bad in 20-30 minutes tho....7-6 record.</p>

I would look at Sean's, but his record is tainted by the fact that in some games, he was inserted when they were down 20 (garbage minutes). 2-4 just for the hell of it.</p>

</p>

Boone's 0-1. Jamaal's 2-3.</p>

Interesting to see Collins as having the best record with playing alot of minutes.</p>

 

[callmecrazi4]

The problem is that teams dont respect them offensively which means they can focus on guarding the perimeter and clogging the lanes effectively cutting RJ and Vince from taking it to the rim. Teams are using there bigs to help defensively which further hampers our offense.</p>

Defensively Jason Collins is getting killed due to the fact that almost none of the teams we faced feature old school frontcourts...every frontcourt with the exception of the Spurs and Miami feature Bigs with athleticism...an area where Collins lacks and is usually exposed furthermore he's on an island out there because malik allen is the laziest defender in the NBA...he just looks slow on the defensive end and refuses to get physical with opposing teams.</p>

Are they the worst starting combo in history? Maybe not, but they'd probably be on the ballot.</p>

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (callmecrazi4)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

The problem is that teams dont respect them offensively which means they can focus on guarding the perimeter and clogging the lanes effectively cutting RJ and Vince from taking it to the rim. Teams are using there bigs to help defensively which further hampers our offense.</p>

Defensively Jason Collins is getting killed due to the fact that almost none of the teams we faced feature old school frontcourts...every frontcourt with the exception of the Spurs and Miami feature Bigs with athleticism...an area where Collins lacks and is usually exposed furthermore he's on an island out there because malik allen is the laziest defender in the NBA...he just looks slow on the defensive end and refuses to get physical with opposing teams.</p>

Are they the worst starting combo in history? Maybe not, but they'd probably be on the ballot.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Malik sucks.</p>

And to counter your post, Collins goes around setting picks to get other players open. That's where the gameplan of leaving him to guard other players goes wrong...and where a good offensive play goes right.</p>

Look at it this way: Kidd has ball at the top of the key. Goes toward FT line, Collins' man comes up to guard him, Collins is either A. open down low where he could throw up an easy layup or B. set a pick for Wing Player to get open for a shot or drive. Kidd passes to Player that Collins got open, easy bucket.</p>

The problem is, Frank sucks.</p>

 

[callmecrazi4]

yeah but they let collins go and challenge kidd to pass to him because Collins is so slow in the paint teams are able to recover defensively.</p>

 

[Kidd Karma]

I thinik it's more of finding a rotation of players, rather than who starts. I'd rather see Williams and Magloire out there with Kidd and RJ. That would be a nice running quartet, Williams swats, Magloires boards and outlets. VC could fit in with Collins, Allen, Nachbar and Gill, more of a half court offense, Collins, and Allen can set the picks for Boki and VC to manuever around....without fear of trying ticky tack fouls out on the perimeter. You let VC roam around the court without the other 2 for maybe 12-16 minutes a night.</p>

 

[Belarus]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

again, who starts is irrelevant if they only play 15 minutes a night. It looks like Boone may be becoming the primary big du jour. How unexpected would that be? Boone has the best chance of doing the "little things" that Rod and the coaches demand from the bigs--while still grabbing some rebounds and scoring a few points.</p>

</div></p>

BS, the who starts is irrelevant argument is pure BS. we get off to slow starts due to lack of offensive firepower. Sorry, Collins should not be starting due to lack of offense which basically makes it 4 on 5 and Malik is inconsistent as well as Kidd so it's really RJ and VC on 5. I defy you to find me a starter who's as big of a liabilty. go ahead.</p>

</div></p>

agree. Collins would be an asset off the bench in the 4th when we're up couple points and need to keep the opponent in check.</p>

</p>

 

[Dumpy]

collins just gets exposed when there aren't four other scorers on the court with him. the problem isn't collins, as I see it--it is pairing him with Malik Allen. But Frank wants a "shooter" out there in the front court with Collins.</p>

 

[GMJ]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mehul)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

start boone and williams!</p>

</div></p>

Hey Mehul, welcome to S2! Shoot me a PM if you have any questions about the site.</p>

I have a dream...of Jason Collins making as much, and having a role similar to, that of John Thomas.</p>

</p>

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

collins just gets exposed when there aren't four other scorers on the court with him. the problem isn't collins, as I see it--it is pairing him with Malik Allen. But Frank wants a "shooter" out there in the front court with Collins.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Malik Allen sucks. I agree, for the most part.</p>

Collins is a problem, because he doesn't contribute as much as we'd like....but Malik is a much much much bigger problem. At least Collins doesn't kill our offense/defense at all.</p>

Collins, Sean, and Boone are probably the only big men on the team that don't completely screw up almost every possession on either end of the court.</p>

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Belarus)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

again, who starts is irrelevant if they only play 15 minutes a night. It looks like Boone may be becoming the primary big du jour. How unexpected would that be? Boone has the best chance of doing the "little things" that Rod and the coaches demand from the bigs--while still grabbing some rebounds and scoring a few points.</p>

</div></p>

BS, the who starts is irrelevant argument is pure BS. we get off to slow starts due to lack of offensive firepower. Sorry, Collins should not be starting due to lack of offense which basically makes it 4 on 5 and Malik is inconsistent as well as Kidd so it's really RJ and VC on 5. I defy you to find me a starter who's as big of a liabilty. go ahead.</p>

</div></p>

agree. Collins would be an asset off the bench in the 4th when we're up couple points and need to keep the opponent in check.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

he should be a specialist who can come in and play 10-15 min a night AT MOST.</p>

 

[jarkid]

I know Collins and Allen suck, but the problem aren't them. The problem is caused by the coach.</p>

Just like Popovich woudn't start Jacque Vaugh over Tony Parker, and Elson over Tim Duncan, but Frank would do it.</p>

 

[kobimel]

I really don't think he would, jarkid. He's not that stupid.</p>

Do you guys really think that if a guy like Jerry Sloan or Popovich was the Nets' coach right now, we would be THAT much better? Maybe, just maybe, we would be at 11-10. The problem so far has been with the players. Sure, Frank has chipped in with his own share of problems, but unless the players give 100% every night, we won't win games no matter who the coach is.</p>

 

[Lavalamp]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I know Collins and Allen suck, but the problem aren't them. The problem is caused by the coach.</p>

Just like Popovich woudn't start Jacque Vaugh over Tony Parker, and Elson over Tim Duncan, but Frank would do it.</p>

</div></p>

Interesting you said Parker and Duncan, how about starting Finley over Ginobli this year? (for 19 of 20 games)</p>

Or 03-04, starting Turkoglu over Ginobli for 37 games of the 77 games Ginobli played.</p>

The Spurs wanted Ginobli to bring ball-handling and a spark off the bench. Maybe Frank wanted to experiment Vince bring ball-handling and a spark off the bench?</p>

I do think Carter is clearly a bonafide starter, but sometimes the bench needs help.</p>