Collins era is coming to an end

[Dark Defender]

I love the hustle, his defense and his fro but I can't stand this guy on the starting lineup anymore.</p>

Sean Williams is putting him on the bench where he belongs and hopefully krstic can do the same for Magloire.
</p>

 

[purplehaze89]

What was he doing on the floor in crunchtime, when Shaq was on the bench?</p>

Frank for coach of the year.</p>

 

[Jizzy]

He sucks.</p>

 

[#1_War_Poet_ForLife]

Kidd Carter Jefferson Sean Nenad sounds good in a few years, if Kidd doesn't age.</p>

 

[Universe]

<font size="2">Celebrate good times,come on! (Let's celebrate)
Celebrate good times, come on! (Let's celebrate)

There's a party goin' on right here
A celebration to last throughout the years
So bring your good times, and your laughter too
We gonna celebrate your party with you

Come on now</font></p>

 

[jarkid]

LET"S HURRAY AND CHEER !!</p>

Finally, we have a guy to beat Collins to the bench !</p>

SEAN WILLIAMS ! AND MAGLOIRE</p>

 

[Legacy]

sean williams > jason collins</p>

frank is the only idiot that can't get it through his head quick enough.</p>

 

[GMJ]

Is it too much to say that Sean will start every game from here on out barring injury?</p>

I thought Magloire played a little bit better this game. He was solid on Shaq in the beginning of the game. Unfortunately his "I swear I used to be able to hit this" jump hook was down right ugly. Neither he or Krstic made a huge demand for that starting spot, IMO</p>

 

[Dumpy]

I'm going to repeat what I've said 100 times: I think Collins and Sean would be a good combination together. Who was on the court during the fourth quarter when the Nets' defense stood up and they made a run? It's really easy to blame Collins for the team's trouble, but I really don't think that Magloire is any better, and I think that the second unit would be much worse if Collins was on it than if Krstic was on it. What is so bad about Collins playing 15-20 minutes a game, with the starting unit at the start of the first and third quarters, and possibly part of the fourth depending on the situation? Can someone PLEASE explain to me why that isn't a good idea, instead of just saying, "Collins sucks."</p>

 

[purplehaze89]

What you propose is a very solid idea. Unfortunately, what you propose is not what L-Frank actually does. Can you explain to me what Cowman was doing with under a minute left and we are down by 2, with Shaq on the bench?</p>

 

[jarkid]

He is No.1_Jason_Collins_Fan. Move on over him.</p>

 

[GMJ]

I don't think its a good idea because of Magloire's play tonight. He was by no means perfect, and was pretty ugly on the offensive-post, but he hits the boards much better than Collins, can score a little bit better than Collins, and can be that big body we through at post scorers. I thought he did a really good job on Shaq in the first quarter; I didn't get to see him defend him past that too much. He's cutting down on his turnovers, and is less of a handicap to this team that Collins is. Stick with tonight's line up, but rotate Boone in instead of Malik.</p>

 

[Aurelino]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I don't think its a good idea because of Magloire's play tonight. He was by no means perfect, and was pretty ugly on the offensive-post, but he hits the boards much better than Collins, can score a little bit better than Collins, and can be that big body we through at post scorers. I thought he did a really good job on Shaq in the first quarter; I didn't get to see him defend him past that too much. He's cutting down on his turnovers, and is less of a handicap to this team that Collins is. Stick with tonight's line up, but rotate Boone in instead of Malik.</p>

</div></p>

Well, he had 6 turnovers tonight.</p>

</p>

</p>

 

[GMJ]

I didn't say he stopped making turnovers, just that he's starting to play better and defend the post</p>

 

[purplehaze89]

Please. Magloire is balls but he at least provides intangibles that Collins doesn't provide, like Collins provides things Magloire don't provide. What the coach has to weigh is what intangibles are conducive to wining games. Clearly with Collins in there, we aren't winning games. Why not give Mags a shot? The worst he could do is pull down 9 rebounds a game.</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixmolochia89)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

What you propose is a very solid idea. Unfortunately, what you propose is not what L-Frank actually does. Can you explain to me what Cowman was doing with under a minute left and we are down by 2, with Shaq on the bench?</p>

</div></p>

</p>

I don't know, and I don't know why (as far as I can tell) tonight was the first time that Collins and Sean were on the court together. All I can think is that Magloire and Boone are just as bad at free throws, and Malik Allen is just terrible. that leaves Krstic. who Mourning would probably have completely abused.</p>

Again, I think that when Collins will play with the reserves--say, in good times, Marcus, Antoine, Nachbar, and Boone--that unit will be terrible, while a unit of Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, and Collins should be pretty good. The thing is, add Krstic to that second unit and I think suddenly you have pretty good depth and balance. Tonight Collins played about 15 minutes, which is about what he should have. When he played with the reserves, they were pretty bad, as expected. But in the 4th quarter, when he was FINALLY in the game with Kidd, Antoine, RJ, and Sean, the Nets outscored the heat 19-12 (or 19-14 if you include the foul shots after Collins fouled out) in around seven minutes of play, against the Heat starters.</p>

Really, I mean, you can talk all day about the things that Collins isnt good at, but I really beleive that the team is better with Collins-Sean starting in the front court, but as soon as one of the big three--any one--comes out, Collins should come out also and replaced by either Krstic, Magoire, Allen (yuck), Nachbar, or Boone--replace some defense with more offense, so to speak. In my world, Collins would then continue to get reserve minutes but just play with the starters. Can you imagine how powerful Krstic would be with the reserves, as either the first or second option alongside one of Carter or RJ? Facing off against a backup center?</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixmolochia89)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Please. Magloire is balls but he at least provides intangibles that Collins doesn't provide, like Collins provides things Magloire don't provide. What the coach has to weigh is what intangibles are conducive to wining games. Clearly with Collins in there, we aren't winning games. Why not give Mags a shot? The worst he could do is pull down 9 rebounds a game.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you. Offensive rebounds are different, though--especially since we're talking about how to improve the offense, not the defense. defensive rebounds are a defensive skill; offensive rebounds are an offensive skill. Tonight Magloire had something like zero offensive rebouds,and six turnovers, and was 2-7 from the field. How was that an improvement over what Collins could give the team? Again, pair Collins with the starters and Sean Williams, and the team will be fine.</p>

 

[purplehaze89]

Frank is pretty adamant about putting a shooter out there with Collins. At the moment, he lacks trust in Sean's offensive game. What would be the best case scenario? Come January, Sean and Krstic are our starting 4 and 5. Its not like having Collins out there to start is really shutting down the opposition big men. Its not like Collins is even doing a splendid job anymore shutting down the oppositions' bigs. Shaq had his best game of the season against us today and Howard made Cowboy his punani for the evening.</p>

 

[purplehaze89]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

</p>

defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p>

</div></p>

And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p>

</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixmolochia89)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Frank is pretty adamant about putting a shooter out there with Collins.</p>

</div></p>

yeah, that's what I disagree with. I don't think it is necessary. I prefer to have someone who can run the court with Kidd, and grab rebounds (which should be easier with Collins in the game, since he focuses on just boxing out). I think those two things are more important than a shooter, especially when Carterand RJ arealready on the court. As for shutting down the opposing big--look, you have to go through the game log to figure out who was in the game when, but I suspect that he does a better job than Magloire or Allen. Looking quickly at yesterday's game, though, it's clear that Howard was at his best in the second quarter when Collins was on the bench. The point isn't that he's so special, but just that the nets have been unable to find someone who is any good at all to replace him.</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixmolochia89)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

</p>

defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p>

</div></p>

And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p>

</div></p>

Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p>

 

[Teaneck_Armory_Guy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phoenixmolochia89)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

</p>

defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p>

</div></p>

And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p>

</div></p>

Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p>

</div></p>

Thing is with Collins, you know what you have. I think that many of us are coming at from the pov that if you try somebody else (giving him the same minutes and the same stable role; a legitimate shot), you may come out with someone that helps the team better. Nothing to do with starting. Just the minutes. Williams is sure looking good. Next, why not give a big chunk of defined minutes to Magloire, yes, even Boone. Starting Magloire one game and benching him the next ain't a legit opportunity. Playing Boonie 2 minutes here and there ain't either. Nobody (at least me) is saying these guys are the best thing since sliced bread either. But we know what we have with Collins on a consistent basis now for years. The other guys, we don't. Magloire may come around and cash the Kidd Dividend. Boonie can rebound, he *should* be able to play some D and get a few points. Or not. Try things for a 15 games or so. If it don't work; go back.</p>

For me, I'd be aiming at 80 to 90 minutes from Krstic, Magloire and Williams. OK Krystic's situation kind of nullifies that to a large degree. Magloire may not pan out and the idea may go south. But until proven wrong, I'm not seeing any reason, really, why we automaticallly have to pencil in that many minutes for Collins as a given.</p>

And yes...saying "Collins sucks" doesn't add much to a discussion but stuff like that, on the other other hand is just part of being a sports fan. Who ever goes to a game and yells "Hey ref, you may have missed a call there but overall I think you're really trying and like everyone you have your strong points!!".?</p>

</p>

 

[J.S]

the fewer minutes Collins plays this season, the fewer triple doubles Kidd will have, he'll be shy a rebound or two.

 

[jarkid]

I think The Nets need the W, not the number of triple double.</p>

Just like yesterday against the Magic, I am not happy at all while Kidd is 11 points 19 rebounds 10 assists.</p>

 

[jarkid]

Only let Collins start from the bench would motivate him.</p>

He finally made a shot tonight, this is what we need.</p>

He can play in some minutes, but hell, not asa starter.</p>

Yeah,someone said Collins helped us to score well in the offensive end, but in the first quarter against the Heat,</p>

we have almost a perfect offense even without Carter.</p>

Keep Doing this, Frank. Until Carter is back, this team will be so strong.</p>

 

[bling890]

I was watching jurrasic park the other day and i think i saw a JAMAAL MAGLOIRASAURUS in the background. Seriously, guys like him are extinct in the NBA and i dont think there are more than 5 teams he can match up with, IF that. Collins shouldnt be starting either, but hell, i dont even know what to do with this team anymore.</p>

 

[pegs]

[quote name='Teaneck_Armory_Guy']</p>

[quote name='Dumpy']</p>

[quote name='phoenixmolochia89']</p>

[quote name='Dumpy']</p>

</p>

defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Thing is with Collins, you know what you have. I think that many of us are coming at from the pov that if you try somebody else (giving him the same minutes and the same stable role; a legitimate shot), you may come out with someone that helps the team better. Nothing to do with starting. Just the minutes. Williams is sure looking good. Next, why not give a big chunk of defined minutes to Magloire, yes, even Boone. Starting Magloire one game and benching him the next ain't a legit opportunity. Playing Boonie 2 minutes here and there ain't either. Nobody (at least me) is saying these guys are the best thing since sliced bread either. But we know what we have with Collins on a consistent basis now for years. The other guys, we don't. Magloire may come around and cash the Kidd Dividend. Boonie can rebound, he *should* be able to play some D and get a few points. Or not. Try things for a 15 games or so. If it don't work; go back.</p>

For me, I'd be aiming at 80 to 90 minutes from Krstic, Magloire and Williams. OK Krystic's situation kind of nullifies that to a large degree. Magloire may not pan out and the idea may go south. But until proven wrong, I'm not seeing any reason, really, why we automaticallly have to pencil in that many minutes for Collins as a given.</p>

And yes...saying "Collins sucks" doesn't add much to a discussion but stuff like that, on the other other hand is just part of being a sports fan. Who ever goes to a game and yells "Hey ref, you may have missed a call there but overall I think you're really trying and like everyone you have your strong points!!".?</p>

</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

Watching you two have a discussion is one of the most entertaining things I have ever read. The only thing that would make this better is to have FOMW join in. Please continue, I love the points you guys are making!</p>

 

[Teaneck_Armory_Guy]

Ya know. Truth be known, I get a lot out of Dumpy's posts. I misunderstood some of the things he was saying at first, what with posts all over the place to sort thru. Don't always agree with him, but he challenges you and makes you think.</p>

 

[soul driver]

that's why I was calling Williams 3000 last night. Yes, due to the resemeblence of Andre 3000 of Outkast, but also because, damn, this dude's from the year 3000! The way of the future!

 

[ghoti]

Too late.</p>

It took five years to find Sean Williams - who is not the second coming of Bill Russell - just a good athlete who can play around the rim.</p>

</p>

</p>