Collins era is coming to an end

[downunderwonder]

I read somewhere a while back that Collins was a Mark Madsen type player; On a winning team his strengths and abilities are able to be utilized without having his weaknesses exposed, but when his role is too large due to the personel around him, his team will struggle.</p>

As much as I really do not enjoy what he does, his specific strengths are impressive, however what we ask of him every night is far beyond what he is able to do and still win the game. I just think he is a poor fit with this team but we are stuck with him due to his large contract.</p>

Seems we just have to shut up and deal.</p>

 

[ghoti]

Jason Kidd wants Collins in the game, so Collins is in the game.</p>

 

[Dumpy]

[quote name='Teaneck_Armory_Guy']</p>

[quote name='Dumpy']</p>

[quote name='phoenixmolochia89']</p>

[quote name='Dumpy']</p>

</p>

defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Thing is with Collins, you know what you have. I think that many of us are coming at from the pov that if you try somebody else (giving him the same minutes and the same stable role; a legitimate shot), you may come out with someone that helps the team better. Nothing to do with starting. Just the minutes. Williams is sure looking good. Next, why not give a big chunk of defined minutes to Magloire, yes, even Boone. Starting Magloire one game and benching him the next ain't a legit opportunity. Playing Boonie 2 minutes here and there ain't either. Nobody (at least me) is saying these guys are the best thing since sliced bread either. But we know what we have with Collins on a consistent basis now for years. The other guys, we don't. Magloire may come around and cash the Kidd Dividend. Boonie can rebound, he *should* be able to play some D and get a few points. Or not. Try things for a 15 games or so. If it don't work; go back.</p>

For me, I'd be aiming at 80 to 90 minutes from Krstic, Magloire and Williams. OK Krystic's situation kind of nullifies that to a large degree. Magloire may not pan out and the idea may go south. But until proven wrong, I'm not seeing any reason, really, why we automaticallly have to pencil in that many minutes for Collins as a given.</p>

And yes...saying "Collins sucks" doesn't add much to a discussion but stuff like that, on the other other hand is just part of being a sports fan. Who ever goes to a game and yells "Hey ref, you may have missed a call there but overall I think you're really trying and like everyone you have your strong points!!".?</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

If that's your position, I have no problem with it. I am working with a different set of assumptions, though, which are that Collins will be part of the rotation, and play some consisitent number of minutes. The question I'm trying to answer is: How to best use him, with his skills and weaknesses, to give the team the best chance to win? I have MY answer, but I'll never know if I'm right or not, because I doubt it will ever happen. As for Magoire: I suspect that, all in all, he won't be any better, because he just doesn't do very much right. This is his fourth team in the last four years, since his rookie deal expired, and there has to be a reason for that. Everyone knows I'd love to see Boone step up, because I think he could succeed here, but something is going on with him and because we don't see the practices we don't really know what he is struggling with.</p>

See, I'd have a rotation something like this (making this up as I go along)</p>

Starters: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, Collins.</p>

at 4:00 mark (counting down): Take out RJ, Collins. Now have Kidd, Wright, Carter, Sean, Krstic</p>

2nd period: Marcus, Wright, RJ, Krstic, Magloire.</p>

mid-second period: Kidd, Carter,Wright, Magloire, Krstic.</p>

late second quarter: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Nachbar, Krstic/Sean</p>

Third period: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, Collins.</p>

etc.</p>

I really think this is better than putting Krstic in the starting lineup and Collins with one of the reserve combinations. It is more balanced. Obviously, Krstic would play more than Collins, but he'd play when one or more of Kidd, Carter, and RJ are out of the game, and they run more set plays for him against mostly a backup center.</p>

 

[fefe]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Jason Kidd wants Collins in the game, so Collins is in the game.</p>

</div></p>

A few days ago I read somewhere that Kidd prefers Sean Williams in the game.</p>

</p>

 

[zєяσ]

[quote name='Dumpy']</p>

[quote name='Teaneck_Armory_Guy']</p>

[quote name='Dumpy']</p>

[quote name='phoenixmolochia89']</p>

[quote name='Dumpy']</p>

</p>

defensive rebounds are mostly irrelevant to me, since all that matters is that you increase the chance that your TEAM will pick them up--it doesn't matter if it is you.</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

And what about the defensive rebound against the Hornets last week?</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Again, I've never argued that Collins is the best thing since sliced bread, but just that he can mesh wellwith the other personnel. I think that demoting Collins to the second unit would be a disaster. I think the starting unit would be marginally better, if at all, and the reserve unit would be much worse. My position is that, if Collins is on the team (which I accept as a given), he should play with the starters, and that should include Sean instead of Krstic. I've made no mystery of it, and no one has ever explained why I'm wrong about this other than to type "Collins sucks."</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

Thing is with Collins, you know what you have. I think that many of us are coming at from the pov that if you try somebody else (giving him the same minutes and the same stable role; a legitimate shot), you may come out with someone that helps the team better. Nothing to do with starting. Just the minutes. Williams is sure looking good. Next, why not give a big chunk of defined minutes to Magloire, yes, even Boone. Starting Magloire one game and benching him the next ain't a legit opportunity. Playing Boonie 2 minutes here and there ain't either. Nobody (at least me) is saying these guys are the best thing since sliced bread either. But we know what we have with Collins on a consistent basis now for years. The other guys, we don't. Magloire may come around and cash the Kidd Dividend. Boonie can rebound, he *should* be able to play some D and get a few points. Or not. Try things for a 15 games or so. If it don't work; go back.</p>

For me, I'd be aiming at 80 to 90 minutes from Krstic, Magloire and Williams. OK Krystic's situation kind of nullifies that to a large degree. Magloire may not pan out and the idea may go south. But until proven wrong, I'm not seeing any reason, really, why we automaticallly have to pencil in that many minutes for Collins as a given.</p>

And yes...saying "Collins sucks" doesn't add much to a discussion but stuff like that, on the other other hand is just part of being a sports fan. Who ever goes to a game and yells "Hey ref, you may have missed a call there but overall I think you're really trying and like everyone you have your strong points!!".?</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

If that's your position, I have no problem with it. I am working with a different set of assumptions, though, which are that Collins will be part of the rotation, and play some consisitent number of minutes. The question I'm trying to answer is: How to best use him, with his skills and weaknesses, to give the team the best chance to win? I have MY answer, but I'll never know if I'm right or not, because I doubt it will ever happen. As for Magoire: I suspect that, all in all, he won't be any better, because he just doesn't do very much right. This is his fourth team in the last four years, since his rookie deal expired, and there has to be a reason for that. Everyone knows I'd love to see Boone step up, because I think he could succeed here, but something is going on with him and because we don't see the practices we don't really know what he is struggling with.</p>

See, I'd have a rotation something like this (making this up as I go along)</p>

Starters: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, Collins.</p>

at 4:00 mark (counting down): Take out RJ, Collins. Now have Kidd, Wright, Carter, Sean, Krstic</p>

2nd period: Marcus, Wright, RJ, Krstic, Magloire.</p>

mid-second period: Kidd, Carter,Wright, Magloire, Krstic.</p>

late second quarter: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Nachbar, Krstic/Sean</p>

Third period: Kidd, Carter, RJ, Sean, Collins.</p>

etc.</p>

I really think this is better than putting Krstic in the starting lineup and Collins with one of the reserve combinations. It is more balanced. Obviously, Krstic would play more than Collins, but he'd play when one or more of Kidd, Carter, and RJ are out of the game, and they run more set plays for him against mostly a backup center.</p>

[/QUOTE]</p>

</p>

I wish we can send this post to Frank....</p>

 

[Jizzy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Jason Kidd wants Collins in the game, so Collins is in the game.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

</p>

Where'd you hear that?</p>

 

[ghoti]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ghoti)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Jason Kidd wants Collins in the game, so Collins is in the game.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

</p>

Where'd you hear that?</p>

</div></p>

Are you serious?</p>

</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I wish we can send this post to Frank....</p>

</div></p>

</p>

He already uses Collins mostly the way I would use him . . . with just the starting unit . . . I think he is right on with that. My only real change would be to let Krstic play with the reserves--that is, when one or more of Kidd, Carter, and RJ are not in the game--and play Sean with Collins in the starting unit. Krstic would be a force off the bench against backup centers, and would prevent offensive lulls in the second qaurter.</p>

 

[Aurelino]

at least, Frank is showing he can tweak te starting lineup. Moreover, the team is looking to be less reliant on Collins.</p>

 

[pegs]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'>As for Magoire: I suspect that, all in all, he won't be any better, because he just doesn't do very much right. This is his fourth team in the last four years, since his rookie deal expired, and there has to be a reason for that.</div></p>

</p>

On that, there are a list of sensible reasons as to why Magloire has been with four teams in the last four years.</p>

With New Orleans, there was some success there, they got to the playoffs, but eventually they just wanted to blow it all up. They got rid of Magloire and Davis.</p>

With his next team, the Bucks, they already had Gadzuric, Bogut, and eventually Villanueva. He got minutes, produced well, but there wasn't really room for him. So off he goes, to Portland.</p>

In Portland, there was already a glut of big men. Randolph, Aldridge, Przybilla demanded alot of minutes. Still, Magloire got some minutes, and produced...but there wasn't really a need for him in Portland.</p>

Now, with him "not being any better", history(in Portland at least) says that basically, Magloire sucks at the beginning of the season, and really starts playing by mid-season. What I'm basically saying with that is don't completely give up on him...we could see improvement by mid-season. If we don't, then I guess that'd mean he sucks now.</p>

 

[ly_yng]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

</p>

He already uses Collins mostly the way I would use him . . . with just the starting unit . . . I think he is right on with that. My only real change would be to let Krstic play with the reserves--that is, when one or more of Kidd, Carter, and RJ are not in the game--and play Sean with Collins in the starting unit. Krstic would be a force off the bench against backup centers, and would prevent offensive lulls in the second qaurter.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

As long as Carter is hurt, playing Sean and Collins together sounds like it would be a disaster. That might be the easiest defensive game plan in NBA history: stick a man on RJ, help off Kidd and Wright, and just clog the paint. Byron could probably come up with that one on his own.</p>

Sean's been putting up good offensive numbers, but I get the impression a lot of that is off putbacks and pick-and-rolls, which I imagine would get less effective if you've got an offensive non-entity like Collins on the floor.</p>

I do like the Krstic off the bench idea - him, like Carter and RJ, are more effective on offense with the ball in their hands. Starting Carter and RJ, and then going to Krstic post-ups for 3 of the first 5 possessions is kind of a waste. I'd much rather see that happen at the end of the first quarter, against backups, like you said.</p>

 

[NOMAM]

Try putting the pieces together of the Nets front court puzzle so far.

- Nets lost Moore in the offseason who filled in well for Krstic last season. But to start this season Krstic has been ineffective and the Nets offensive production has taken a hit because of it.</p>

- Magloire and Collins both suck badly on offense. Collins is a good defender on post players and does a decent job on face up big guys as well. Magloire is just an OK post defender and cannot guard face up, perimeter bigmen. But he is a very good rebounder and could be useful against strong rebounding teams like the Cavs if they were to meet up in the playoffs again.</p>

- Allen was brought in as a big guy that can shoot the jumpshot but he hasn't done that well yet. Boone hasn't gotten that much court time but he hasn't looked that good in his limited minutes either.</p>

- Sean Williams has been amazing for what he has done so fast. He blocks and changes shots. His one on one defense has been decent to. He can't guard really big guys like Howard and Shaq but it looks like he can do a decent job on most of the 4's in the league. And he seems to be getting more comfortable on offense and he can really run the floor well.</p>

So does this team need both Magloire and Collins? Should the Nets try trading one of them for a big guy with some offensive skills from a team looking to dump salary? Looking around the league some guys that might be available for trade could be:

Troy Murphy
Brad Miller
Mikki Moore</p>

The Kings could be a team that decides to blow it up and Moore and Miller could become available. Murphy has a yucky contract which could be a reason he could be available if the Pacers decide to rebuild. I wouldn't mind having Moore back either. He worked well with Kidd and Carter and can pick and roll and pick and pop. He only has 2 years left on his contract. Mistake to let him go in the first place?</p>

A lineup of:

Kidd/M.Williams/Armstrong
Carter/Wright
Jefferson/Nachbar
S.Williams/Moore/Boone
Krstic/Magloire</p>

 

[Dumpy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ly_yng)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

</p>

As long as Carter is hurt, playing Sean and Collins together sounds like it would be a disaster. That might be the easiest defensive game plan in NBA history: stick a man on RJ, help off Kidd and Wright, and just clog the paint. Byron could probably come up with that one on his own.</p>

Sean's been putting up good offensive numbers, but I get the impression a lot of that is off putbacks and pick-and-rolls, which I imagine would get less effective if you've got an offensive non-entity like Collins on the floor.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

That's kind of the way I feel about putting Collins on the seond unit: a disaster. I kind of disagree about the effectiveness of putbacks and pick-and-rolls if Collins was in the game, but I'd really like to see it in action, to be honest. Yesterday we did see it, a little bit, for about a minute in the first, a few seconds in the second, and about seven minutes in the fourth, when Sean was 2-2 from the floor, drew three fouls, and picked up three rebounds. Collins is really good at keeping opposing bigs out of the way.</p>

 

[NOMAM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

That's kind of the way I feel about putting Collins on the seond unit: a disaster. I kind of disagree about the effectiveness of putbacks and pick-and-rolls if Collins was in the game, but I'd really like to see it in action, to be honest. Yesterday we did see it, a little bit, for about a minute in the first, a few seconds in the second, and about seven minutes in the fourth, when Sean was 2-2 from the floor, drew three fouls, and picked up three rebounds. Collins is really good at keeping opposing bigs out of the way.</p>

</div></p>

In that 4th quarter though, Collins didn't really have any impact on Sean Williams offense. He had a pick and roll score with Kidd. And then had a put back dunk when Collins wasn't on the floor. When Williams got to the free throw line it was because he got fouled on postup plays for him. And another time Shaq fouled him on a jumpshot attempt in the lane. But perhaps Collins not being an offensive threat gives more opportunity for Williams to score.</p>

</p>

 

[Dumpy]

I have five words for you: Kidd-Kittles-Jefferson-KMart-Collins.</p>

 

[jarkid]

<font style="background-color: #d8d0c8">in the K-Mart Era, Collins wasnot a zero-factor in the offensive end, </font></p>

he averaged about 6 points and 5 rebounds, while FG% is about 0.42 and FT% is about 0.75.</p>

Sadly, Do we have same Mr.Collins in the team right now?</p>

 

[downunderwonder]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<font style="background-color: rgb(216, 208, 200);">in the K-Mart Era, Collins wasnot a zero-factor in the offensive end, </font></p>

he averaged about 6 points and 5 rebounds, while FG% is about 0.42 and FT% is about 0.75.</p>

Sadly, Do we have same Mr.Collins in the team right now?</p>

</div></p>

Ding ding ding! The answer is no!</p>

</p>

 

[Teaneck_Armory_Guy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Downunderwonder)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jarkid)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<font style="background-color: rgb(216, 208, 200);">in the K-Mart Era, Collins wasnot a zero-factor in the offensive end, </font></p>

he averaged about 6 points and 5 rebounds, while FG% is about 0.42 and FT% is about 0.75.</p>

Sadly, Do we have same Mr.Collins in the team right now?</p>

</div></p>

Ding ding ding! The answer is no!</p>

</div></p>

Double ding ding ding!! The point has been raised (and probably rightfully so) that Magloire's production has faded. But the same is to be said for his main competition on the team.</p>

</p>

 

[Jizzy]

Exactly, Collins was actually a decent offensive option his first couple years heres. He had an OK jumpshot and was much lighter and quicker. It's amazing, you expecta young guys offensive game to improve every year but the opposite has happened with Twin. He is the worst offensive player in the league today.</p>