OT Congressman Madison Cawthorn Accused of Sexual Misconduct

[Natebishop3]

Men saying they are afraid to mentor women just another excuse for hiring or promoting men.

It's pretty sad that you actively look for reasons to fear and hate men.

 

[Minstrel]

It's pretty sad that you actively look for reasons to fear and hate men.

I don't think she hates men as a group. And I think what she said, that you responded to, is quite often true.

 

[Natebishop3]

I don't think she hates men as a group. And I think what she said, that you responded to, is quite often true.

And it reinforces what I was saying, which is that men's fears and feelings are pushed aside and disregarded. Her immediate reaction wasn't that these men are legitimately concerned about some kind of reprisal that could impact their lives, it was that this is basically just a bullshit excuse for men to promote other men. As it said in that article I linked, "They say it’s a joke that men are afraid. They say that if men don’t do anything wrong, they have nothing to worry about. They say they should check their male privilege."

 

[crandc]

Christine Blasey Ford got death threats. Bret Kavanaugh got a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court.

I have worked with numerous men who were professional. Men who do not see women as lying Jezebels.

The men saying they can't mentor women because they are victims probably never wanted to anyway.

Are you saying Trump, Cawthorn, Kavanaugh, Cuomo were framed by lying hussies?

 

[Minstrel]

And it reinforces what I was saying, which is that men's fears and feelings are pushed aside and disregarded. Her immediate reaction wasn't that these men are legitimately concerned about some kind of reprisal that could impact their lives, it was that this is basically just a bullshit excuse for men to promote other men. As it said in that article I linked, "They say it’s a joke that men are afraid. They say that if men don’t do anything wrong, they have nothing to worry about. They say they should check their male privilege."

You're making a big leap, that men who mentor/supervise women are intrinsically "in danger," a danger that you claim crandc is dismissing (because she fears and hates men, apparently). I think that's a pretty bizarre and crazy assumption.

 

[Natebishop3]

Christine Blasey Ford got death threats. Bret Kavanaugh got a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court.

I have worked with numerous men who were professional. Men who do not see women as lying Jezebels.

The men saying they can't mentor women because they are victims probably never wanted to anyway.

Are you saying Trump, Cawthorn, Kavanaugh, Cuomo were framed by lying hussies?

You think I'm talking about celebrities? Politicians? I'm talking about normal every day people.

The problem isn't that all women are lying Jezebels (as you put it) it's that some women are lying Jezebels and it's risky in this social climate to trust your life and your career by betting that you know your coworkers. I've got another story for you. I was working at New Balance when I was in my early 20s while I was going to school. Both of the managers left (both female.) One of them had been having an affair with one of the other employees, although I don't think her husband ever found out. The other one got pretty handsy (rubbing my shoulders and touching me) but I never said anything. After they left they promoted a girl who had only been working there about a month. She had openly hit on me multiple times while we were both just employees. I rebuffed her advances politely but I was not interested. After she was promoted she started harassing me. Finally after she got fed up, she told the owner that I was being insubordinate and he fired me. A few months later I get a call from the police that money had been going missing from the shoebox (no kidding) that they had us hide the cash in every night. Eventually they fired her for stealing.

So do you think I would be justified in harboring the same feelings for women as a whole that you seem to have towards men? I have been assaulted. I have been harassed. I have been falsely accused. Would I be justified in thinking that all women are lying Jezebels? Or am I just weird that I don't hold all women accountable for a few shitty people doing shitty things?

 

[Natebishop3]

You're making a big leap, that men who mentor/supervise women are intrinsically "in danger," a danger that you claim crandc is dismissing (because she fears and hates men, apparently). I think that's a pretty bizarre and crazy assumption.

In this society, all men are intrinsically at risk if they put themselves in a position where they're alone with a woman. If that woman were to turn around and accuse them, it would be he said/she said and usually the man comes out on the wrong end of that. It's the same reason why teachers can't be alone with students. Now, most people are decent and would never accuse you, but you're still opening yourself up to that risk.

 

[Natebishop3]

@Minstrel would you question a woman for feeling concerned or afraid if she was alone out walking at night and a man was walking behind her? If she started walking faster?

So why is it ridiculous for a man to be aware of the potential risks of being falsely accused?

 

[Minstrel]

So why is it ridiculous for a man to be aware of the potential risks of being falsely accused?

Because part of being a professional is working with women, not banishing them from your workplace because you're afraid of the nefariousness of the female sex. If a man wants to cross the street on a dark night to avoid a woman out of fear that she'll falsely accuse him, feel free.

Let me put an alternate example: should white people be afraid of working with black people (or other racial minorities) because of the risk of discrimination claims?

If your answer is yes, it seems awfully convenient that your "legitimate fears" just happen to line up with pushing minorities and women out of the workplace.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think the problem is you're just better looking than most of us here so we can't really relate to what you've gone through (and are going through).

Seriously though, I've had women grabbing my arms and lifting my shirt (because they want to see my tats) up and all that, and not once did I ever feel like I was being assaulted. I'm with you on the potential of being falsely accused, though. Fortunately, I've never been in such situation.

Well, I think that you're illustrating the privilege that women have where they can handle you and you're not going to feel violated. You're just going to shrug it off or not even notice. The woman that grabbed my ass did it in a club while I was dancing with my wife. I think she was wasted. I turned around and was like...... wtf? She just smiled and kept dancing. If I did that to a woman, what would happen?

 

[Natebishop3]

Because part of being a professional is working with women, not banishing them from your workplace because you're afraid of the nefariousness of the female sex. If a man wants to cross the street on a dark night to avoid a woman out of fear that she'll falsely accuse him, feel free.

Let me put an alternate example: should white people be afraid of working with black people (or other racial minorities) because of the risk of discrimination claims?

If your answer is yes, it seems awfully convenient that your "legitimate fears" just happen to line up with pushing minorities and women out of the workplace.

Nobody said anything about being afraid of working with women or black people or short people or animals like dogs. I have plenty of amazing female coworkers.

It was a statistic about men being afraid of taking on a mentorship role with women. That's a very different thing than banishing them from the workplace. Can you people seriously not have a conversation without blowing it up to mean something much worse than it is? Taking on a mentorship role is a personal and intimate thing. You're working closely with someone and teaching them and making yourself available. It's usually in addition to your regular work. So this is essentially men being concerned about starting a close working relationship with a woman because of the potential risks that go with being alone with them.

Why do you feel the need to invalidate the feelings of a large group of people?

 

[Minstrel]

It was a statistic about men being afraid of taking on a mentorship role with women. That's a very different thing than banishing them from the workplace. Can you people seriously not have a conversation without blowing it up to mean something much worse than it is? Taking on a mentorship role is a personal and intimate thing. You're working closely with someone and teaching them and making yourself available. It's usually in addition to your regular work. So this is essentially men being concerned about starting a close working relationship with a woman because of the potential risks that go with being alone with them.

Mentorship is a pretty big part of professional life, so saying that men legitimately should fear taking women under their wing is bad enough--it cuts women out of major career-building opportunities. But the reason for it, that working alone with women is "dangerous," is a logic that affects much more than just mentorships--people often have to work alone with other people. Can a male supervisor work alone with a female subordinate without being at risk of false accusations? Can a man be assigned to a two-person team with a woman without being at risk of false accusations?

Why do you feel the need to invalidate the feelings of a large group of people?

I feel the need to invalidate the feelings of large groups of people when those feelings are irrational and harm others.

It's like the question of religion--I'm fine with people believing what they want about god and spirituality--until and unless those beliefs harmfully affect others.

 

[Natebishop3]

Mentorship is a pretty big part of professional life, so saying that men legitimately should fear taking women under their wing is bad enough--it cuts women out of major career-building opportunities. But the reason for it, that working alone with women is "dangerous," is a logic that affects much more than just mentorships--people often have to work alone with other people. Can a male supervisor work alone with a female subordinate without being at risk of false accusations? Can a man be assigned to a two-person team with a woman without being at risk of false accusations?



I feel the need to invalidate the feelings of large groups of people when those feelings are irrational and harm others.

It's like the question of religion--I'm fine with people believing what they want about god and spirituality--until and unless those beliefs harmfully affect others.

Well I feel that the wholesale fear of men like we're some kind of bogeyman is also irrational and harms others.

I have had to watch a lot of HR videos over the years. Every company does them and I usually have to watch them every single year. And you know what they all had in common?

The villain in the video is a straight white guy.

Making fun of someone with a disability? Straight white guy.
Harassing a woman that won't go on a date with him? A straight white guy.
Making racially insensitive jokes around POC? A straight white guy.

So yes, it gets a little tiresome always being the villain in every story. But you know what's funny? I have never harassed anyone at work. I have never made racially insensitive jokes. I have never made fun of people with disabilities. But I have certainly been harassed. I have been punished for not returning someone's advances.

 

[Natebishop3]

That’s the thing, I never felt like any of them “handled” me. If I didn’t allow them to touch me, trust me, they wouldn’t have been able to. I just don’t see women present the same threat to men as men are to women.

Maybe I can answer your question with a short story of my own.

Several years ago, my wife and I along with my cousin and his gf walked the Vegas Strip really late at night. Two really drunk girls walked past us and touched my wife’s breasts. Had it been two dudes that did that, my cuz and I would’ve dropped them both on the spot. But it was just two stupid drunk girls and my wife didn’t even think much of it. She laughed it off and we moved on.

Point is, it really depends on the threat. Historically, men are much more of a threat.

Sure but you're viewing it as a threat. Not as a violation of your personal space. If women expect men to respect their personal space and their bodies, the respect should be shown both ways. The woman who grabbed my ass did not respect my space or my body. She felt empowered to do whatever she wanted because I'm a guy. I wasn't scared. Fear had nothing to do with it. I just couldn't believe that she would do it without a second thought.

 

[Minstrel]

Well I feel that the wholesale fear of men like we're some kind of bogeyman is also irrational and harms others.

I have had to watch a lot of HR videos over the years. Every company does them and I usually have to watch them every single year. And you know what they all had in common?

The villain in the video is a straight white guy.

Making fun of someone with a disability? Straight white guy.
Harassing a woman that won't go on a date with him? A straight white guy.
Making racially insensitive jokes around POC? A straight white guy.

So yes, it gets a little tiresome always being the villain in every story. But you know what's funny? I have never harassed anyone at work. I have never made racially insensitive jokes. I have never made fun of people with disabilities. But I have certainly been harassed. I have been punished for not returning someone's advances.

Nobody's saying you're the villain. I haven't seen HR videos like that, and I think that's a little ham-handed, specifically modeling white men acting out bad behavior. But that behavior is common, and you have to understand that it's men and white people, specifically, that have the power in this society. That "power" (like the term "privilege") doesn't mean that all white men are powerful people in a universal sense--it means that they aren't threatened as a group in this society. When people complain of "reverse racism," the big problem with that is that white people making racist comments or jokes about, say, black people is legitimately threatening--black people do risk being marginalized and pushed to the fringes of society. If a black person makes racist comments or jokes about white people--sure, it's off-putting and classless, but it doesn't point to the possible marginalization of white people in American society. Ditto men and women.

So I don't really agree that logically everything is mirrored--that if women have legitimate concerns about male behavior, men must necessarily be equally justified in having concerns about women. Women are more at risk in this society, and not just physically. That's simply a fact. Acting as though we need to treat "threats against men in society" the exact same as "threats against women in society" is simply not reasonable, IMO.

 

[Natebishop3]

Nobody's saying you're the villain. I haven't seen HR videos like that, and I think that's a little ham-handed, specifically modeling white men acting out bad behavior. But that behavior is common, and you have to understand that it's men and white people, specifically, that have the power in this society. That "power" (like the term "privilege") doesn't mean that all white men are powerful people in a universal sense--it means that they aren't threatened as a group in this society. When people complain of "reverse racism," the big problem with that is that white people making racist comments or jokes about, say, black people is legitimately threatening--black people do risk being marginalized and pushed to the fringes of society. If a black person makes racist comments or jokes about white people--sure, it's off-putting and classless, but it doesn't point to the possible marginalization of white people in American society. Ditto men and women.

So I don't really agree that logically everything is mirrored--that if women have legitimate concerns about male behavior, men must necessarily be equally justified in having concerns about women. Women are more at risk in this society, and not just physically. That's simply a fact. Acting as though we need to treat "threats against men in society" the exact same as "threats against women in society" is simply not reasonable, IMO.

So at what point do we cross the line where it’s not an either/or? Are we tracking this? Is there a bright line? Because I’m not sure why we can’t believe men and value their feelings and fears while also still recognizing the threats and fears of women. Currently nobody gives a rats ass about men and their feelings.

Did you or Cran read my experiences and think “damn I’m sorry that happened to you.” Hell no.

 

[Minstrel]

So at what point do we cross the line where it’s not an either/or? Are we tracking this? Is there a bright line? Because I’m not sure why we can’t believe men and value their feelings and fears while also still recognizing the threats and fears of women. Currently nobody gives a rats ass about men and their feelings.

So this is where you are? Resentment about how men are treated in this society?

Did you or Cran read my experiences and think “damn I’m sorry that happened to you.” Hell no.

Incorrect. I thought that was a shitty experience and was sympathetic that it happened. But that has nothing to do with whether we should "care" that a lot of men are afraid to engage professionally with women in close quarters or alone.

 

[riverman]

The woman who grabbed my ass did not respect my space or my body.

Unless you filed a police report and complained to management or asked for her to be removed from the premises....I think you're really fishing here for some victim cred. If anyone asked to not mentor another person in the workplace, it should be because it's not a comfortable fit for neutral reasons....not gender or sexual preference or level of attractiveness. Otherwise it's just male insecurity saying'......I can't help myself from staring at tits and ass.....let someone else mentor that person...that's just a real admission that you need some therapy and counseling. It's Rudy Giuliani saying..." I could just stare at her underpants the whole match"....yeah...Rudy would not be the mentor Michelle Wie would probably want

 

[Natebishop3]

I have to admit, I was more jealous than feeling sorry for you.

Sorry, man, call me whatever but I just don't take guys that feel women pose a serious threat to them seriously.

The underage girl who started a rumor that we slept together was 100% a serious threat. If someone had taken her seriously I could have been in deep trouble.

 

[Natebishop3]

Unless you filed a police report and complained to management or asked for her to be removed from the premises....I think you're really fishing here for some victim cred.

So because I want to use a personal experience as an example of how it can happen to men, I’m fishing for victim cred? Did Cran file police reports against all the men she mentioned in her post? Was she fishing for victim cred?

 

[riverman]

Currently nobody gives a rats ass about men and their feelings.

kind of out of touch with the gay community eh? plenty of men have been sexually assaulted by men as well as those who seem threatened by the opposite sex

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah, that one could've been really bad. Glad nothing came of it. But yeah, I get some of your concern. I think we're in a transitional period of sort. Important thing is, it's good that women are being empowered so that they don't have to deal with the same shit that they've dealt with in the past. Getting there is not going to be a smooth ride, but it's worth whatever trouble to get them there.

Ok and again who decides when we’re “there”. Who decides that things are evened up?

 

[Natebishop3]

kind of out of touch with the gay community eh? plenty of men have been sexually assaulted by men as well as those who seem threatened by the opposite sex

Come on man.... you think that’s what we are talking about?

 

[Natebishop3]

The numbers.

When women get equal opportunity, equal pay (for the same qualification as men), don't have to feel like they have to show their ass and cleavage and offer or feel coerced into giving sexual favors to get a job, etc.

Half of what you said is impossible to quantify.

 

[riverman]

Come on man.... you think that’s what we are talking about?

sure...I've heard it's a real problem in the prison population as well....my point is gender isn't the issue at all....and if it happens speak out and bring it to the attention of the authorities unless you don't think you've been violated or harrassed. Doesn't matter what your gender or sexual identity is...no means no. Kevin Spacey wasn't accused of harassing women

 

[Phatguysrule]

Dude has zero game. And is handicapped to boot. Ain't no one trying to bang a handicapped person.

I once read a post on reddit about a guy who met a girl with downs syndrome outside a movie theater and gave her a ride home and ended up nailing her. Both were around 16-17 if I recall.

He said it was pretty alright...

So I guess my point is... Teenage guys definitely are.

 

[crandc]

So at what point do we cross the line where it’s not an either/or? Are we tracking this? Is there a bright line? Because I’m not sure why we can’t believe men and value their feelings and fears while also still recognizing the threats and fears of women. Currently nobody gives a rats ass about men and their feelings.

Did you or Cran read my experiences and think “damn I’m sorry that happened to you.” Hell no.

You know what I think?
Telling me what I think is fighting words. Yeah, trigger.

Actually I did think the experience you described sucked. But I doubt it wrecked your career or left you with lifetime fear. Maybe I am wrong but I see resentment, not terror.

 

[crandc]

So because I want to use a personal experience as an example of how it can happen to men, I’m fishing for victim cred? Did Cran file police reports against all the men she mentioned in her post? Was she fishing for victim cred?

You know, you could ask me directly if you want to know. I am capable of speaking for myself, if you haven't noticed.

 

[Hoopguru]

The numbers.

When women get equal opportunity, equal pay (for the same qualification as men), don't have to feel like they have to show their ass and cleavage and offer or feel coerced into giving sexual favors to get a job, etc.

I used to interview individuals for positions and if someone (male or female) was dressed showing inappropriately it didn't come across well.
There are those that think other attributes can offset skills.

 

[Hoopguru]

Pretty simple to me, people need to be respectful to all and learn to be calculated if they are not.