OT Coronavirus: America in chaos, News and Updates. One million Americans dead and counting (5 Viewers)

[crandc]

Yes, trivializing the Holocaust by comparing everything and anything to it does dishonor the memory of those murdered. I realize that was not the intent but it is how I react, and frankly most Jewish people do as well.

The yellow star was intended as a badge of "racial inferiority" (since you really can't tell by looking who is Jewish), to mark people for scorn, discrimination and finally mass murder. I also don't like mass surveillance although understand need for contract tracing. NOTHING being done to contain spread of a virus is comparable to a yellow star, or to Nazi Germany as an Idaho Republican claimed, or as Michigan "protests" claim, or as attacks on Colorado's Jewish governor claim. The Nazis were not trying to prevent spread of virus, or get people health insurance, or provide family planning (which in fact they banned), all of which have been called "just like Nazi Germany".

 

[Chris Craig]

Warm weather and sunlight doesn't stop human to human contamination. The UV Rays disinfect surfaces.

You know what does stop human to human contact? A stay at home order. Quarantine.

 

[Orion Bailey]

It does also provide vitamin D...

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-from-sun

"...There’s good reason why vitamin D is called “the sunshine vitamin.”

When your skin is exposed to sunlight, it makes vitamin D from cholesterol. The sun's ultraviolet B (UVB) rays hit cholesterol in the skin cells, providing the energy for vitamin D synthesis to occur...."

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-from-sun


which can help our immune system, which may help in dampening the effects of those who are positive and feeling some of the ailments?...

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-Consumer/

"...Vitamin D is important to the body in many other ways as well. Muscles need it to move, for example, nerves need it to carry messages between the brain and every body part, and the immune system needs vitamin D to fight off invading bacteria and viruses. Together with calcium, vitamin D also helps protect older adults from osteoporosis. Vitamin D is found in cells throughout the body..."

You know what does stop human to human contact? A stay at home order. Quarantine.

I was going to amend my above post for the reason of yours. Hard to get sunlight when you are stuck indoors.

Maybe those Floridian beach dwellers are on to something basking in the sun. lol.

 

[magnifier661]

You know what does stop human to human contact? A stay at home order. Quarantine.

Social distancing and proper hygiene is another way

 

[PtldPlatypus]

View attachment 31128

The problem isn't the testing...the problem is that Tennessee is not even close to "flattening the curve".

https://www.wkrn.com/community/heal...-181-deaths-9667-covid-19-cases-in-tennessee/

Considering "the curve" that needs to be flattened is hospitalizations, and you have no data thereupon, I would suggest that your assertion is baseless.

Also, if you read the article you linked, you'll note that the increase in confirmed cases "coincides with an increase in testing across the state. Since April 21, the state’s total tests have increased an average of nearly 7,800 tests each day." A larger number of tests will naturally lead to a larger number of confirmed cases, but that doesn't necessarily indicate increased spread. The claim that they're "not even close to 'flattening the curve' " is not supported by the evidence you've provided.

 

[magnifier661]

Considering "the curve" that needs to be flattened is hospitalizations, and you have no data thereupon, I would suggest that your assertion is baseless.

Also, if you read the article you linked, you'll note that the increase in confirmed cases "coincides with an increase in testing across the state. Since April 21, the state’s total tests have increased an average of nearly 7,800 tests each day." A larger number of tests will naturally lead to a larger number of confirmed cases, but that doesn't necessarily indicate increased spread. The claim that they're "not even close to 'flattening the curve' " is not supported by the evidence you've provided.

That’s what the I remembered hearing from pandemic team. The focus was hospitalizations, ICU beds and ventilators. The entire premise of stay at home was to flatten those curves so we don’t overload hospitals.

 

[CupWizier]

That’s what the I remembered hearing from pandemic team. The focus was hospitalizations, ICU beds and ventilators. The entire premise of stay at home was to flatten those curves so we don’t overload hospitals.

And the advice for reopening states is a 14 day decline. What state has reopened that meets that? Georgia?

 

[yankeesince59]

Considering "the curve" that needs to be flattened is hospitalizations, and you have no data thereupon, I would suggest that your assertion is baseless.

Also, if you read the article you linked, you'll note that the increase in confirmed cases "coincides with an increase in testing across the state. Since April 21, the state’s total tests have increased an average of nearly 7,800 tests each day." A larger number of tests will naturally lead to a larger number of confirmed cases, but that doesn't necessarily indicate increased spread. The claim that they're "not even close to 'flattening the curve' " is not supported by the evidence you've provided.

My response was in response to your comment on the link you cited from the other poster you quoted. You don't think the curve is based on new cases? Tennessee had been doing well until the last few days.

New cases going way up for the last FIVE days, is not "baseless" because an increase of positive tests also means that new hospitalizations will also rise in proportion.

And generally speaking, most every state only tests people who actually have symptoms which also implies an increase. In other words, you most likely have to have people with symptoms in order to have the need for a test.

 

[yankeesince59]

And the advice for reopening states is a 14 day decline. What state has reopened that meets that? Georgia?

Hey, he's on a roll, and he does not like to be questioned when he's rolling.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

That’s what the I remembered hearing from pandemic team. The focus was hospitalizations, ICU beds and ventilators. The entire premise of stay at home was to flatten those curves so we don’t overload hospitals.

This actually touches on something I've felt a little odd talking about.
When things were first ramping up it was, "stay home to level the curve for hospitals", the numbers a.) were never ever close to what their models predicted. b.) That was supposed to be 15 days, and then it became '45' days. The numbers of this are still nowhere near what they thought it would be. The hospitals are not flooded and over-ran. It appears the mortality rate isn't nearly as high as predicted early on. It also looks like a LOT of people have had it never knew and are already over it. The notion that stay at home to stay safe, well ok I get that, but what does that mean? They can never eliminate the danger of going outside, just like they can't eliminate the dangers inside. So fine we can stay home, we can keep social distancing, but what is the actual goal and our those goals reasonable to keep the world, or the US at home and the economy sputtering, and all of that?

It's not that I take anyone's death lightly, but if the goal is "no new cases", well ok then we will never open up again. If the goal is the "curve" needs to look like a certain thing well ok, what is it the curve should look like?

I'm not even pushing "lets open everything back up", I just feel like it feels very ambiguous as to what they want to accomplish and I heard someone say "no new cases" and to that, I was like well that's not realistic.

Also if the numbers are not anywhere close to what they thought, why do we think there will be a huge spike now and the hospitals will be over-ran?

 

[magnifier661]

This actually touches on something I've felt a little odd talking about.
When things were first ramping up it was, "stay home to level the curve for hospitals", the numbers a.) were never ever close to what their models predicted. b.) That was supposed to be 15 days, and then it became '45' days. The numbers of this are still nowhere near what they thought it would be. The hospitals are not flooded and over-ran. It appears the mortality rate isn't nearly as high as predicted early on. It also looks like a LOT of people have had it never knew and are already over it. The notion that stay at home to stay safe, well ok I get that, but what does that mean? They can never eliminate the danger of going outside, just like they can't eliminate the dangers inside. So fine we can stay home, we can keep social distancing, but what is the actual goal and our those goals reasonable to keep the world, or the US at home and the economy sputtering, and all of that?

It's not that I take anyone's death lightly, but if the goal is "no new cases", well ok then we will never open up again. If the goal is the "curve" needs to look like a certain thing well ok, what is it the curve should look like?

I'm not even pushing "lets open everything back up", I just feel like it feels very ambiguous as to what they want to accomplish and I heard someone say "no new cases" and to that, I was like well that's not realistic.

Also if the numbers are not anywhere close to what they thought, why do we think there will be a huge spike now and the hospitals will be over-ran?

There was a big scare with the situation in Italy. Rightfully so btw. Then you had the models predicting extreme death tolls and Hospitalizations and ICU beds being overrun by this virus. Like you said, that didn't happen at the levels being modeled.

But controlling spikes isn't about infection rates. It was always about making sure the health care system doesn't crash. A lot of hospitals are losing a ton of money because they can't do elective surgeries during this lock down. Many nurses were being laid off. My ex-wife was let go because her hospital was mainly empty.

 

[Hoopguru]

There was a big scare with the situation in Italy. Rightfully so btw. Then you had the models predicting extreme death tolls and Hospitalizations and ICU beds being overrun by this virus. Like you said, that didn't happen at the levels being modeled.

But controlling spikes isn't about infection rates. It was always about making sure the health care system doesn't crash. A lot of hospitals are losing a ton of money because they can't do elective surgeries during this lock down. Many nurses were being laid off. My ex-wife was let go because her hospital was mainly empty.

From the beginning it has been about capacity and learning more about the virus. The largest % of the public can withstand the sickness based on reporting. People older than 65 /or with underlying conditions are the most at risk and thats still true. With more testing and SD along with testing for antibodies will help in measuring the progression of the virus and what should be done.
To govern a reasonable opening up in Oregon makes since, especially in certain areas.

 

[Orion Bailey]

There was a big scare with the situation in Italy. Rightfully so btw. Then you had the models predicting extreme death tolls and Hospitalizations and ICU beds being overrun by this virus. Like you said, that didn't happen at the levels being modeled.

But controlling spikes isn't about infection rates. It was always about making sure the health care system doesn't crash. A lot of hospitals are losing a ton of money because they can't do elective surgeries during this lock down. Many nurses were being laid off. My ex-wife was let go because her hospital was mainly empty.

I think city lay out comes into play a bit as well. Most European cities are very tight knit, on top of each other, where we have all the sprawling suburbs. Narrow streets and roads with little sprawl creates an even more dangerous environment requiring Italy to lock down in a more severe way than us.

But yes, I too remember it was all about overrunning our emergency services.

The other factor is what is currently deemed as non essential small businesses is a fallacy. EVERY small business is essential to its employees and owners. Its not just about the customer and goods served. $1200 doesn't pay the lease on most business buildings let alone pay the mortgage and feed the family of the owner.

It just comes down to common sense based on geographical quarters.


Let not forget to look at our poverty increase over the next year and the deaths that result from it.

 

[CupWizier]

This actually touches on something I've felt a little odd talking about.
When things were first ramping up it was, "stay home to level the curve for hospitals", the numbers a.) were never ever close to what their models predicted. b.) That was supposed to be 15 days, and then it became '45' days. The numbers of this are still nowhere near what they thought it would be. The hospitals are not flooded and over-ran. It appears the mortality rate isn't nearly as high as predicted early on. It also looks like a LOT of people have had it never knew and are already over it. The notion that stay at home to stay safe, well ok I get that, but what does that mean? They can never eliminate the danger of going outside, just like they can't eliminate the dangers inside. So fine we can stay home, we can keep social distancing, but what is the actual goal and our those goals reasonable to keep the world, or the US at home and the economy sputtering, and all of that?

It's not that I take anyone's death lightly, but if the goal is "no new cases", well ok then we will never open up again. If the goal is the "curve" needs to look like a certain thing well ok, what is it the curve should look like?

I'm not even pushing "lets open everything back up", I just feel like it feels very ambiguous as to what they want to accomplish and I heard someone say "no new cases" and to that, I was like well that's not realistic.

Also if the numbers are not anywhere close to what they thought, why do we think there will be a huge spike now and the hospitals will be over-ran?

Sounds to me the modeling was in error and could that have been done on purpose. Predict a huge number knowing it won't come close and then you declare some sort of victory and doing a great job. Just 2015 trump campaign lying to people how bad of shape the country is in and then he gets elected and now everything is the best because of trump. Taken right out of the trump playbook of the 3 D's.

 

[Orion Bailey]

From the beginning it has been about capacity and learning more about the virus. The largest % of the public can withstand the sickness based on reporting. People older than 65 /or with underlying conditions are the most at risk and thats still true. With more testing and SD along with testing for antibodies will help in measuring the progression of the virus and what should be done.
To govern a reasonable opening up in Oregon makes since, especially in certain areas.

The only counter argument I get is trafficking. Okay we open up our state. Does that mean we still shouldn't leave it, lets say if WA remains in a lockdown? vice versa? How will that work and affect those living on borders like us and Vancouver. KC, NYC area, etc. Seems ion this regard, there needs to be more clarity on what can be done from state to state before any state opens anything, so the nation as a whole knows what is to be expected of them as we lift in increments.

With that said, this isn't going away and the longer we remain in lock down and increase the unemployment line and business shut downs the more deaths we will see due to poverty stricken homes. (suicides, unmaintained health issues, etc.)
When does the crossing point hit and we see that we may be costing more lives than not being in lock down?

I'm not saying this is the case, but numbers are numbers and the longer we stay in lockdown the closer we will be to that crossing point. If we haven't already hit it, we will eventually. It will eventually be inevitibe

 

[tlongII]

Sounds to me the modeling was in error and could that have been done on purpose. Predict a huge number knowing it won't come close and then you declare some sort of victory and doing a great job. Just 2015 trump campaign lying to people how bad of shape the country is in and then he gets elected and now everything is the best because of trump. Taken right out of the trump playbook of the 3 D's.

So now you think the modeling estimate errors are Trump's fault? Got it.

 

[kjironman1]

The only counter argument I get is trafficking. Okay we open up our state. Does that mean we still shouldn't leave it, lets say if WA remains in a lockdown? vice versa? How will that work and affect those living on borders like us and Vancouver. KC, NYC area, etc. Seems ion this regard, there needs to be more clarity on what can be done from state to state before any state opens anything, so the nation as a whole knows what is to be expected of them as we lift in increments.

With that said, this isn't going away and the longer we remain in lock down and increase the unemployment line and business shut downs the more deaths we will see due to poverty stricken homes. (suicides, unmaintained health issues, etc.)
When does the crossing point hit and we see that we may be costing more lives than not being in lock down?

I'm not saying this is the case, but numbers are numbers and the longer we stay in lockdown the closer we will be to that crossing point. If we haven't already hit it, we will eventually. It will eventually be inevitibe

I live in Vancouver and travel to Portland to work every day. I also have a number of other things that need my attention in Oregon. The crazy thing is that i have changed my life very little during this entire episode. Granted i do very little other than these things. So not really a huge issue.

 

[kjironman1]

So now you think the modeling estimate errors are Trump's fault? Got it.

Not sure how my comment got added to that conversation?

 

[tester551]

Sounds to me the modeling was in error and could that have been done on purpose. Predict a huge number knowing it won't come close and then you declare some sort of victory and doing a great job. Just 2015 trump campaign lying to people how bad of shape the country is in and then he gets elected and now everything is the best because of trump. Taken right out of the trump playbook of the 3 D's.

I've been critical of the lockdowns, and have thought that we should've followed Sweden's model.... but to call the modeling errors purposeful is just asinine.
People (scientists) are trying to predict and estimate what is going to happen based on VERY LIMITED information. Of course the models are not going to be right. They may have taken a slightly more 'conservative' view of the model so that more people would take it seriously - but to imply that it was intentional with ulterior motives is beyond dumb.

Having said that, I fully believe that SOME of the politicians and media are utilizing it to push their agenda.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Sounds to me the modeling was in error and could that have been done on purpose. Predict a huge number knowing it won't come close and then you declare some sort of victory and doing a great job. Just 2015 trump campaign lying to people how bad of shape the country is in and then he gets elected and now everything is the best because of trump. Taken right out of the trump playbook of the 3 D's.

I thought the initial models were from UofW and (some other university? sorry my mind is melting). I think much of Trump's strategy of trying to turn himself into a wartime president with this is definitely for election purposes.
Again I'm not pushing an "open it up" agenda, which has been claimed in this thread whenever I ask questions (not by you) just want to make it clear.
I am definitely getting to a point of like, "ok so what's next" though. To me (and maybe me alone) the goalposts keep moving. In Feb / early march it was 2.2 dead Americans in the next few months, close it down. Then they started to (kinda our version of a Quarantine is like a college frat party compared to China's...) shut things down, It was flatten the Curve, it now seems to be so ambiguous that I don't quite understand the goals, and plans to get to the goals.
I come back to though, the numbers have never, ever during this pandemic have come close, they are orders of magnitudes off.
So is the goal 0 cases? 14 days of trending down in cases? because if testing ramps up more and more it seems like cases will go up even if the people who are tested positive have almost 0 risks of health complications from it.

We can stay closed till they have a vaccine if we want I suppose, but I don't know how realistic that is. It just seems like at this point it's gone off in some weird political twilight zone.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I thought the initial models were from UofW and (some other university? sorry my mind is melting). I think much of Trump's strategy of trying to turn himself into a wartime president with this is definitely for election purposes.
Again I'm not pushing an "open it up" agenda, which has been claimed in this thread whenever I ask questions (not by you) just want to make it clear.
I am definitely getting to a point of like, "ok so what's next" though. To me (and maybe me alone) the goalposts keep moving. In Feb / early march it was 2.2 dead Americans in the next few months, close it down. Then they started to (kinda our version of a Quarantine is like a college frat party compared to China's...) shut things down, It was flatten the Curve, it now seems to be so ambiguous that I don't quite understand the goals, and plans to get to the goals.
I come back to though, the numbers have never, ever during this pandemic have come close, they are orders of magnitudes off.
So is the goal 0 cases? 14 days of trending down in cases? because if testing ramps up more and more it seems like cases will go up even if the people who are tested positive have almost 0 risks of health complications from it.

We can stay closed till they have a vaccine if we want I suppose, but I don't know how realistic that is. It just seems like at this point it's gone off in some weird political twilight zone.

The fog has absolutely set in and the goal posts have withered from site.

 

[THE HCP]

The are just figuring this out now?

Runny nose, coughing, nasal congestion, sore throat........
I have these symptoms from April-July EVERY YEAR! It's called hay fever and it's hitting me hard right now!

 

[CupWizier]

I thought the initial models were from UofW and (some other university? sorry my mind is melting). I think much of Trump's strategy of trying to turn himself into a wartime president with this is definitely for election purposes.
Again I'm not pushing an "open it up" agenda, which has been claimed in this thread whenever I ask questions (not by you) just want to make it clear.
I am definitely getting to a point of like, "ok so what's next" though. To me (and maybe me alone) the goalposts keep moving. In Feb / early march it was 2.2 dead Americans in the next few months, close it down. Then they started to (kinda our version of a Quarantine is like a college frat party compared to China's...) shut things down, It was flatten the Curve, it now seems to be so ambiguous that I don't quite understand the goals, and plans to get to the goals.
I come back to though, the numbers have never, ever during this pandemic have come close, they are orders of magnitudes off.
So is the goal 0 cases? 14 days of trending down in cases? because if testing ramps up more and more it seems like cases will go up even if the people who are tested positive have almost 0 risks of health complications from it.

We can stay closed till they have a vaccine if we want I suppose, but I don't know how realistic that is. It just seems like at this point it's gone off in some weird political twilight zone.

And the doubt only keeps climbing as this administration deals mostly in fantasy than real time data. You would think after all these briefings we would think we would be more informed than less.

 

[CupWizier]

I've been critical of the lockdowns, and have thought that we should've followed Sweden's model.... but to call the modeling errors purposeful is just asinine.
People (scientists) are trying to predict and estimate what is going to happen based on VERY LIMITED information. Of course the models are not going to be right. They may have taken a slightly more 'conservative' view of the model so that more people would take it seriously - but to imply that it was intentional with ulterior motives is beyond dumb.

Having said that, I fully believe that SOME of the politicians and media are utilizing it to push their agenda.

And on the flip side trump is using these briefings to push his agenda rather than to inform or comfort the people. So far he has failed on all accounts.

 

[lawai'a]

No one is murdering people with Corona virus. Please don't spit on the memory of murdered Jews.

Yes, trivializing the Holocaust by comparing everything and anything to it does dishonor the memory of those murdered. I realize that was not the intent but it is how I react, and frankly most Jewish people do as well.

The yellow star was intended as a badge of "racial inferiority" (since you really can't tell by looking who is Jewish), to mark people for scorn, discrimination and finally mass murder. I also don't like mass surveillance although understand need for contract tracing. NOTHING being done to contain spread of a virus is comparable to a yellow star, or to Nazi Germany as an Idaho Republican claimed, or as Michigan "protests" claim, or as attacks on Colorado's Jewish governor claim. The Nazis were not trying to prevent spread of virus, or get people health insurance, or provide family planning (which in fact they banned), all of which have been called "just like Nazi Germany".

i see that you or someone has edited your original post to remove the accusation of my "pissing" on the memory of the victims of the holocaust. if you reread my original post and the edits you took offense with, note that i said "worry about an equivalence". i never stated there was one worthy of consideration, but that someone might see one there, as the beginnings of state sponsored control of targeted individuals from a group with similar demographics. period, no trivialization, no antisemitism and certainly no offense intended. that you saw one is an unintended consequence of the wording, should have inserted potential equivalence.
i will apologize to you though with certain umbrage.
i take offense with your reply as it WAS intended to offend, as well as vulgar to boot. if you would search out my posts on here or anywhere else, you will not find any antisemitism in them anywhere.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

And the doubt only keeps climbing as this administration deals mostly in fantasy than real time data. You would think after all these briefings we would think we would be more informed than less.

My feelings as I've alluded to in other threads is that daily press briefings convolute whatever message he's trying to give and make it worse. I think if I were the leader and I were to shut down things over this it would have looked much different (I don't know if it would have been better or worse). I would have had the CDC health officials release a statement containing mostly statistics, and research being done, and what our plans looked like (daily). I would not have done press conferences every 24 hours. I would have done one every 2 weeks. The first part to go over what research and data we had found from the last 2 weeks. If that data has made it so our goals and plans have changed. Then do a Q & A with reporters and let my 'experts' handle much of the Q & A. I think that is the appropriate response to a shut/slow down of the country. I don't know if I would have shut down the country or not, probably at least for a short time in march with the "goal" of we don't know much about this, we need to know more, how dangerous it is, how contagious it is, work at treatments, etc. With how things have gone though, I feel like the goalposts have been all over and I'm not sure their even set up right now, and I do have a ton of questions, really for both the "open it up right now", and the "close it down til we have a vaccine" sides and many in between.

 

[tlongII]

Not sure how my comment got added to that conversation?

Sorry. My response brought in two quotes. I was referring to where I quoted Cup.

 

[lawai'a]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...-pushing-trump-on-a-covid-19-plan/ar-BB13h12G

The Secret Group of Scientists and Billionaires Pushing Trump on a Covid-19 Plan
maybe some adults in the conversation after all.

 

[Lanny]

Sure the masks and latex gloves are just so appealing.

What's that little bitty thing down in the area of the crotch? Looks like that would get in the way of my gigantic dong.

 

[SlyPokerDog]