OT Coronavirus: America in chaos, News and Updates. One million Americans dead and counting (2 Viewers)

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tester551 said:
More people should understand this.... however it doesn't fit their bias.
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My observation anymore since there doesn't appear to be any give and take or compromise, just bash the other side, is it not about the issues really but what team you are on and kids are learning this. Classic tribalism
 
I am finding it hard to compromise with or understand antivaxxers. It looked like pandemic was winding down, but thanks to Covidiots it is raging. Encouraged by a major political party and a host of media outlets all outdoing one another to make people sick.
 
Hoopguru said:
My observation anymore since there doesn't appear to be any give and take or compromise, just bash the other side, is it not about the issues really but what team you are on and kids are learning this. Classic tribalism
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Agreed.

crandc said:
I am finding it hard to compromise with or understand antivaxxers. It looked like pandemic was winding down, but thanks to Covidiots it is raging. Encouraged by a major political party and a host of media outlets all outdoing one another to make people sick.
Click to expand...
Glad you can admit to being part of the problem here - and participating in tribalism.

The vaccines are great at significantly reducing the SYMPTOMS - but that is an entirely different discussion.

The notion that we are in this position because of the "antivaxers" is moronic at best. Based on the latest data that I've seen, it does not appear that vaccines significantly reduce TRANSMISSION and/or spread of the virus. So even if everyone were to be 100% vaxed, the virus would still spread (maybe not quite as fast - but it would still spread).

There has to be some level of cognitive dissonance to place all the blame on the "conservatives" (tribalism at it's finest). There are lots of different groups of people (cultural, ethnic, etc.) who are apprehensive to getting the vaccine. A lot people in the poorer inner city areas are rejecting the vaccine.
 
Hoopguru said:
My observation anymore since there doesn't appear to be any give and take or compromise, just bash the other side, is it not about the issues really but what team you are on and kids are learning this. Classic tribalism
Click to expand...
Except it really is about the issues for some of us. And we're sick of assholes posting dangerous bullshit which idiots are believing, keeping us in a perpetual state of reduced freedom and heightened danger due to overwhelmes hospitals.
 
tester551 said:
Agreed.


Glad you can admit to being part of the problem here - and participating in tribalism.

The vaccines are great at significantly reducing the SYMPTOMS - but that is an entirely different discussion.

The notion that we are in this position because of the "antivaxers" is moronic at best. Based on the latest data that I've seen, it does not appear that vaccines significantly reduce TRANSMISSION and/or spread of the virus. So even if everyone were to be 100% vaxed, the virus would still spread (maybe not quite as fast - but it would still spread).

There has to be some level of cognitive dissonance to place all the blame on the "conservatives" (tribalism at it's finest). There are lots of different groups of people (cultural, ethnic, etc.) who are apprehensive to getting the vaccine. A lot people in the poorer inner city areas are rejecting the vaccine.
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I'm sorry but that's bullshit.

Vaccinated people are 80% protected from Delta. If the spread were reduced by 80% we wouldn't be seeing spread at epidemic rates.
 
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tester551 said:
Agreed.


Glad you can admit to being part of the problem here - and participating in tribalism.

The vaccines are great at significantly reducing the SYMPTOMS - but that is an entirely different discussion.

The notion that we are in this position because of the "antivaxers" is moronic at best. Based on the latest data that I've seen, it does not appear that vaccines significantly reduce TRANSMISSION and/or spread of the virus. So even if everyone were to be 100% vaxed, the virus would still spread (maybe not quite as fast - but it would still spread).

There has to be some level of cognitive dissonance to place all the blame on the "conservatives" (tribalism at it's finest). There are lots of different groups of people (cultural, ethnic, etc.) who are apprehensive to getting the vaccine. A lot people in the poorer inner city areas are rejecting the vaccine.
Click to expand...
My huge family is made up of multi race, different political affiliations and some religious and some not. And some that have not decided for the vax of which I disagree with but there zero way I would condemn or ridicule these people I happen to disagree with. In fact I have great love and compassion for them all and we are able to discuss our different positions on things without lashing out or taking sides against. I have conversations with several in my fam about the importance of being vaccinated and a few have changed their thinking. This isnt about ideologically or even politics. Its about being respectful and listening and looking for opportunities to help.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
Except it really is about the issues for some of us. And we're sick of assholes posting dangerous bullshit which idiots are believing, keeping us in a perpetual state of reduced freedom and heightened danger due to overwhelmes hospitals.
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It is for me as well.
 
The FDA Is Begging You Not to Take Horse Dewormer for Covid-19

“You are not a horse. You are not a cow,” the Food and Drug Administration said about using the drug that hosts on Fox News have been pushing


“You are not a horse. You are not a cow,” the Food and Drug Administration tweeted on Saturday alongside a link to a page on their website explaining “Why you should not use Ivermectin to treat or prevent Covid-19.”

Why? Because Ivermectin, a medication usually reserved for deworming livestock, is responsible for a spike in poison control calls in Mississippi as people duped by conspiracy theories have purchased the drug and ingested it, hoping it will treat or prevent Covid-19 — something the drug is not proven to do.

According to an alert issued by the Mississippi Department of Health on Friday, 70 percent of all recent calls to poison control in the state “have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers.” Although most callers (85 percent) only reported mild symptoms, one person was advised to seek additional treatment.

“Animal drugs are highly concentrated for large animals and can be highly toxic in humans,” the alert said. Ivermectin is sometimes used in humans to treat parasites or scabies, but in much smaller doses than are given to livestock.

The calls have clearly baffled health officials in the state. “I think some people are trying to use it as a preventative which is really kindof crazy,” Dr. Thomas Dobbs, Mississippi’s state health officer, said. “So please don’t do that.”

“You wouldn’t get your chemotherapy at a feed store,” Dobbs added. “You wouldn’t treat your pneumonia with your animal’s medication. It can be dangerous to get the wrong doses of medication, especially with something meant for a horse or a cow.”

But the obvious risks of humans ingesting Ivermectin haven’t stopped people at Fox News — including hosts Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, and Tucker Carlson — from dangerously suggesting that it is a safe and effective treatment for Covid-19, as Rachel Maddow pointed out on her Friday night show where she showed clips of Fox personalities pushing the drug consistently over the last six months.



“Fox News is busy saying, ‘Don’t take the vaccine, but do take this horse deworming medication, trust us, it is proven,’ ” Maddow said.

Except, Ivermectin’s efficacy in treating or preventing Covid is everything but proven. Both the FDA and World Health Organization have warned against it. Mississippi especially cannot afford an influx of patients who took Ivermectin, as the state is experiencing a Covid-19 surge that has already overwhelmed many hospitals.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fda-horse-dewormer-covid-fox-news-1215168/
 
SlyPokerDog said:
The FDA Is Begging You Not to Take Horse Dewormer for Covid-19

“You are not a horse. You are not a cow,” the Food and Drug Administration said about using the drug that hosts on Fox News have been pushing


“You are not a horse. You are not a cow,” the Food and Drug Administration tweeted on Saturday alongside a link to a page on their website explaining “Why you should not use Ivermectin to treat or prevent Covid-19.”

Why? Because Ivermectin, a medication usually reserved for deworming livestock, is responsible for a spike in poison control calls in Mississippi as people duped by conspiracy theories have purchased the drug and ingested it, hoping it will treat or prevent Covid-19 — something the drug is not proven to do.

According to an alert issued by the Mississippi Department of Health on Friday, 70 percent of all recent calls to poison control in the state “have been related to ingestion of livestock or animal formulations of ivermectin purchased at livestock supply centers.” Although most callers (85 percent) only reported mild symptoms, one person was advised to seek additional treatment.

“Animal drugs are highly concentrated for large animals and can be highly toxic in humans,” the alert said. Ivermectin is sometimes used in humans to treat parasites or scabies, but in much smaller doses than are given to livestock.

The calls have clearly baffled health officials in the state. “I think some people are trying to use it as a preventative which is really kindof crazy,” Dr. Thomas Dobbs, Mississippi’s state health officer, said. “So please don’t do that.”

“You wouldn’t get your chemotherapy at a feed store,” Dobbs added. “You wouldn’t treat your pneumonia with your animal’s medication. It can be dangerous to get the wrong doses of medication, especially with something meant for a horse or a cow.”

But the obvious risks of humans ingesting Ivermectin haven’t stopped people at Fox News — including hosts Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, and Tucker Carlson — from dangerously suggesting that it is a safe and effective treatment for Covid-19, as Rachel Maddow pointed out on her Friday night show where she showed clips of Fox personalities pushing the drug consistently over the last six months.



“Fox News is busy saying, ‘Don’t take the vaccine, but do take this horse deworming medication, trust us, it is proven,’ ” Maddow said.

Except, Ivermectin’s efficacy in treating or preventing Covid is everything but proven. Both the FDA and World Health Organization have warned against it. Mississippi especially cannot afford an influx of patients who took Ivermectin, as the state is experiencing a Covid-19 surge that has already overwhelmed many hospitals.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fda-horse-dewormer-covid-fox-news-1215168/
Click to expand...


Horses, don't fuck them, don't take their drugs.

Both are bad, very very bad.
 
tester551 said:
Agreed.


Glad you can admit to being part of the problem here - and participating in tribalism.

The vaccines are great at significantly reducing the SYMPTOMS - but that is an entirely different discussion.

The notion that we are in this position because of the "antivaxers" is moronic at best. Based on the latest data that I've seen, it does not appear that vaccines significantly reduce TRANSMISSION and/or spread of the virus. So even if everyone were to be 100% vaxed, the virus would still spread (maybe not quite as fast - but it would still spread).

There has to be some level of cognitive dissonance to place all the blame on the "conservatives" (tribalism at it's finest). There are lots of different groups of people (cultural, ethnic, etc.) who are apprehensive to getting the vaccine. A lot people in the poorer inner city areas are rejecting the vaccine.
Click to expand...

I think that there are a couple of problems in what you said in this post. First, while it’s true that the delta variant has changed things and that vaccinated people who get Covid can carry as high of a load of virus as unvaccinated people, they make up a smaller percentage of current infections than the unvaccinated do. Second, some studies are showing that the immune system kicks in pretty quickly and cuts the viral load much faster in vaccinated people than in the unvaccinated. The main driver of new infections is clearly the unvaccinated population. That said, I agree with your broader point that demonizing the unvaccinated isn’t helpful.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I'm sorry but that's bullshit.

Vaccinated people are 80% protected from Delta. If the spread were reduced by 80% we wouldn't be seeing spread at epidemic rates.
Click to expand...
If the vaccine was that effective at reducing transmission, then why would Israel see such a wide spread of the virus when they have vaccinated 78% of it's population (12+)?

There are two issues here. 1) Symptoms and 2) Transmission.

The FDA emergency approvals for the vaccines indicated that they are effective in reducing the symptoms. They made no claim as to the ability of the vaccine to reduce transmission (because they didn't know). Here is a link from May. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...fizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-emergency-use
At this time, there are limited data to address whether the vaccine can prevent transmission of the virus from person to person. In addition, at this time, data are not available to determine how long the vaccine will provide protection.
Click to expand...

Too many people are conflating the two issues here. Based on field evidence, the vaccine is effective to reduce the symptoms - much less so in reducing the transmission.
 
tester551 said:
If the vaccine was that effective at reducing transmission, then why would Israel see such a wide spread of the virus when they have vaccinated 78% of it's population (12+)?

There are two issues here. 1) Symptoms and 2) Transmission.

The FDA emergency approvals for the vaccines indicated that they are effective in reducing the symptoms. They made no claim as to the ability of the vaccine to reduce transmission (because they didn't know). Here is a link from May. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...fizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-emergency-use


Too many people are conflating the two issues here. Based on field evidence, the vaccine is effective to reduce the symptoms - much less so in reducing the transmission.
Click to expand...

Since vaccinated people get well sooner than unvaccinated people that would mean they transmit less covid.
 
e_blazer said:
I think that there are a couple of problems in what you said in this post. First, while it’s true that the delta variant has changed things and that vaccinated people who get Covid can carry as high of a load of virus as unvaccinated people, they make up a smaller percentage of current infections than the unvaccinated do. Second, some studies are showing that the immune system kicks in pretty quickly and cuts the viral load much faster in vaccinated people than in the unvaccinated. The main driver of new infections is clearly the unvaccinated population. That said, I agree with your broader point that demonizing the unvaccinated isn’t helpful.
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Reasonable counter points...

I'm not sure we have the data to confidently say that the vaxed make up a smaller percentage than the unvaxed. If all our data is coming from 'self reporting' when you go get tested - that may skew the numbers significantly if the vaxed have either mild cases or are asymptomatic (and therefore decide not to get tested). Early on - there was discussion about testing at the wastewater treatment plant to help determine the concentration of the virus in the community. Ideally, there would be more macro type data available to help confirm/disprove the assumption.

If you have a link, I'd be interested to see some of the studies that you are referencing here.
 
Covid death can come true, it can happen to you
If you don't get the vax
For it's easy, you will find, to be narrow of mind
If you don't get the vax

You can go to extremes with ivermectin schemes
You can laugh when your health falls apart at the seams
And life gets more difficult with each passing day
And death is either in your heart or on it's way

Don't you know that it's worth every treasure on earth
To not get the vax
For as rich as you are, it's much better by far
To not get the vax

And if you should survive to a 105
Look at all the libs you'll own by being alive
And here is the best part, you've had a brain fart
If you are among the foolish at heart

And if you should survive to a 105
Think of all the libs you'll own by being alive
And here is the best part, you've had a brain fart
If you are among the foolish at heart

barfo
 
crandc said:
I do find it ironic to be called moronic by someone who says my impatience with antivaxxers makes me part of the problem.
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Its moronic to blame, stereotype, and name call then wonder why you're not having productive communication.
 
tester551 said:
There are two issues here. 1) Symptoms and 2) Transmission.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are at least 3 - infection, symptoms, and transmission. You are lumping infection (inbound) and transmission (outbound) together, but they are different issues.

Even if an infected vaxxed person is exactly as likely to transmit the virus to another person, that doesn't mean the vaxxed person is equally likely to get infected in the first place.

barfo
 
tester551 said:
If the vaccine was that effective at reducing transmission, then why would Israel see such a wide spread of the virus when they have vaccinated 78% of it's population (12+)?

There are two issues here. 1) Symptoms and 2) Transmission.

The FDA emergency approvals for the vaccines indicated that they are effective in reducing the symptoms. They made no claim as to the ability of the vaccine to reduce transmission (because they didn't know). Here is a link from May. https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pre...fizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-emergency-use


Too many people are conflating the two issues here. Based on field evidence, the vaccine is effective to reduce the symptoms - much less so in reducing the transmission.
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78% minus 12 and under puts them well below herd immunity... Nearly 30% of their population is under 14...so at least 20% are under 12. They are well below 60% vaccinated.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/526596/age-structure-in-israel/

Yeah, they are bound to have outbreaks.
 
If you want a good idea of where we’re at in the US in our battle with Covid, take a look at this video. Totally apolitical and we’ll worth the 16 minutes.

 
tester551 said:
Reasonable counter points...

I'm not sure we have the data to confidently say that the vaxed make up a smaller percentage than the unvaxed. If all our data is coming from 'self reporting' when you go get tested - that may skew the numbers significantly if the vaxed have either mild cases or are asymptomatic (and therefore decide not to get tested). Early on - there was discussion about testing at the wastewater treatment plant to help determine the concentration of the virus in the community. Ideally, there would be more macro type data available to help confirm/disprove the assumption.

If you have a link, I'd be interested to see some of the studies that you are referencing here.
Click to expand...

The reports here in Oregon show that about 14% of positive Covid cases are in people who are vaccinated. You’re right though, testing in this country is terrible (see the video I linked) so we don’t have sufficient data to prove the point.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.or...state-pledges-weekly-data.html?outputType=amp
 
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HailBlazers said:
Its moronic to blame, stereotype, and name call then wonder why you're not having productive communication.
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As I said, I ran out of productive conversation with antivaxxers. I could understand early on people being hesitant. But hundreds of millions of doses with almost no serious side effects vs. 600,000 dead Americans and counting. I can't say they have a good point. Or that I understand why a horse drug is OK but vaccine not. Or that they are smart to get health advice from Fox or random dude on Facebook because they know more than Dr. Fauci, NIH, CDC and every public health expert.
 
crandc said:
I am finding it hard to compromise with or understand antivaxxers. It looked like pandemic was winding down, but thanks to Covidiots it is raging. Encouraged by a major political party and a host of media outlets all outdoing one another to make people sick.
Click to expand...
Go read about cults.
 
tester551 said:
The vaccines are great at significantly reducing the SYMPTOMS - but that is an entirely different discussion.

The notion that we are in this position because of the "antivaxers" is moronic at best. Based on the latest data that I've seen, it does not appear that vaccines significantly reduce TRANSMISSION and/or spread of the virus. So even if everyone were to be 100% vaxed, the virus would still spread (maybe not quite as fast - but it would still spread).
Click to expand...

Even if the viral load of a breakthrough case is the same as an unvaccinated case, vaccinated people are 8 times less likely to be infected va unvaccinated people, so vaccinations certainly do reduce transmission.
 
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